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#Post#: 2518--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: ScottKey Date: May 27, 2019, 6:06 pm
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Do you need the loss break down for my previous play? I have to
take notes when playtesting so I can go back and get that for
you if you’d like.
#Post#: 2519--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: pilotofficerprune Date: May 28, 2019, 9:28 am
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It would be helpful, even if only to help establish a baseline.
#Post#: 2520--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: ScottKey Date: May 28, 2019, 1:07 pm
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RAF:
Fighters: 4 losses from other fighters
Hampdens: 2 losses from Barrage; 2 losses from fighters
Wellingtons: 3 losses from direct flak; 6 losses from fighters
#Post#: 2522--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: pilotofficerprune Date: May 28, 2019, 2:31 pm
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That's helpful, thanks. 50% flak losses validates the decision
to detune.
#Post#: 2539--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: ScottKey Date: June 1, 2019, 3:25 pm
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Scenario: Operation Sunrise- second play
Version: 0.7
Playtesters: Scott Key, solitaire
June 1, 2019
Report: RAF veteran/experte assigned to trailing escort. The
green squadron os assigned to the middle escort. The escorts are
spaced so as to not give a bonus to German tally attempts on the
Hampdens. One veteran counter and experte counter assigned to
the turn 2 Me-109 reinforcement. In the course of the game each
side will split one squadron.
Turn 1:-109 experte flight attacks leading Hampdens head-on with
a late reaction by escorts. The British succeed in starting a
dogfight.
Turn 2: - One squadron of interceptors splits and zooms past the
Hampdens in an effort to get at the leading Wellingtons.
- A different interceptor squadron tallies and attacks the
leading Hampdens. Again the escorts (green) late react. The
spitfires disrupt. The British fail at starting a dogfight.
- The dogfight results in both sides taking losses then
breaking.
Turn 3: - Barrage fire vs the leading Hampdens results in a
passed cohesion roll.
- The trailing (veteran, experte) escorts split. One flight
tallies a 109 flight below it . The 109 flight (vet, experte)
forms a Lufbery but loses 2 aircraft and breaks.
- The interceptors attacking the Hampdens switch their tally to
the trailing Hampdens; neither side suffers any losses but the
Spitfire squadron breaks.
Turn 4: - Barrage fire scores one hit on the Hampdens but does
not do any damage.
- Bombing -3vp
- The last unengaged German interceptor sqn tallies and attacks
the leading Hapdens as they emerge from the Barrage. No effect.
- The experte, veteran RAF flight tallies and bounces the
Interceptors which were previously attacking the trailing
Hampdens but are now flying above the barrage. The 109s take 2
losses and disrupt. The RAF fails at starting a dogfight.
- A veteran Luftwaffe flight head-on attacks the leading
Wellingtons. They have been tallied by a veteran RAF flight and
the resulting combat results in the Me-109 flight breaking. The
Spitfire flight reverts to escort.
- The reinforcing (veteran/experte) squadron attacks the
trailing Wellingtons inflicting a straggler.
Turn 5: - Barrage causes on passed cohesion check
- Bombing inflicts -3 vp
- The reinforcing experte sqn causes a net 2 losses to the
trailing Wellingtons which disrupt.
- The RAF experte flight mixes it up with the 109 interceptor
sqn. which has dropped altitude and formed a Lufbery. 1 Spit is
downed but 3 Friedrichs are downed in exchange. The 109 Sqn
breaks.
- The leading Hampdens inflict a straggler on their attackers
and both sides disrupt.
Turn 6: - Barrage vs the trailing Hampdens is NE
- The escorting veteran RAF flight tallies the 109s attacking
the tail of the bomber formation. They fly back and engage the
109s causing the Luftwaffe sqn to disrupt. The RAF flight fails
to start a dogfight.
- Nearing the board edge the leading Hampdens are attacked again
taking a loss and a straggler.
- Pursuing the broken 109 sqn the veteran/experte flight
inflicts another loss but takes a loss and breaks. Both sides
escape.
Turn 7: - Direct flak inflicts a straggler on the first
Wellington sqn and a loss on the second.
- Another round of combat around the last Wellington sqn results
in the bombers losing a plane and the RAF veteran flight
breaking.
- The interceptor sqn at the board edge loses it’s target and
circles looking for a new tally.
Turn 8: - Direct flak has NE
- Bombing inflicts -4 vp
- Moving forward to the third Wellington sqn, the reinforcement
Friedrichs down a bomber.
Turn 9: - the circling interceptors at the board edge tally the
leading Wellingtons.
- Direct flak causes a loss and a straggler on the last
bomber sqn.
- Bombing inflicts -4 vp
- The interceptors down two more bombers.
Turn 10: - Direct flak is NE
- the bombers are climbing except for the sqn which is being
attacked which dives.
- The lead Wellington sqn is attacked by climbing 109s to no
effect. The interceptors break.
- The reinforcement vet/experte sqn downs two Wellingtons then
loses cohesion.
Victory: Luftwaffe
RAF: -10 vp from fighters killed, -14 vp from bombing: -24 vp
Luftwaffe: +7 vp from Spitfires downed, +24 vp from Bombers
downed (4 from Hampdens/20 from Wellingtons): +31 vp
Total: +7 vp
Recommendations:
- The flak change seems to be correct as it shifted the burden
of Bomber losses to the fighters. There was one particularly
tenacious 109 squadron (the turn 2 reinforcement) which did a
lot of the damage to the Wellingtons.
- The rolls were pretty balanced in this game, with a few
dramatic exceptions, so I think it’s a representative game. It.
Ould have easily slipped into draw or loss territory if the
Friedrich reinforcement sqn had broken any earlier.
- I think it is good where it is though the challenge definitely
is for the RAF. For the RAF it’s very much a matter of finding a
way to get some escorts back to defend the tail of the
Wellington formation. You could do a return to base but if your
tally failed that’s it as you likely won’t get a second chance.
- I think I can sign off on this.
#Post#: 2544--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 2, 2019, 7:02 am
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Thanks for that Scott. So no changes for v0.7 for now, and we'll
see if we can get more signoffs on this.
#Post#: 2575--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: Okmed Date: June 8, 2019, 10:13 pm
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Scenario: O23 Operation Sunrise
Version: v0.6
Player: Dave Demko
A little late to the party with this one, started like a week
ago. I just read the thread and see others have had experiences
similar to mine.
Narrative: The British divided their escorts two up front with
the Hampdens and one behind with the Wellingtons. The
Wellington's escorts managed a successful reaction but could not
force a dogfight. Because of fuel limits the Brits opted not to
use tactical flexibility. The Germans used it to split one
squadron, and that worked out well as one of the flights managed
to go 10 turns without breaking. The British fighters broke
early. The German flak shot well, and coordinated nicely to
avoid friendly fire. Having two heavy flak with two channels
each in adjacent columns allows for optimal shooting at the
Wellingtons. The German fighters had several turns to go
VP-farming against the Wellingtons, which managed only 1 hit
with zero kills in their own defense. Effective fire against the
bombers limited the bombing results through two disruptions and
one break, for bombing results of 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 0 VPs.
Victory: British 9 VP bombing, 3 VP fighter kills = 12
Germans 2 VP fighter kills, 32 VP bomber kills
net 22, large German victory
Recommendations: What made the difference for the Germans was
mainly good shooting, complemented by relatively few turns in
combat for the British fighters. That meant driving German VPs
up and Brisigh VPs down simultaneously. With more nearly average
dice on gunnery and cohesion (both sides) the result would
likely have still been a German victory. Maybe we need to shift
the balance. How? The Spitfires suffer a lot because of those
extra tanks, but those are historical. What is the basis of flak
restriction on the Hampdens? Could it apply to the Wellingtons
as well. That might help. So might shifting the target a column
or two left. Those are my suggestions before peeking at other
testers' reports on this scenario.
#Post#: 2579--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 9, 2019, 7:26 am
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Dave, I notice you played v0.6. Would it be possible for you to
retest with the v0.7 version with the detuned flak?
#Post#: 2981--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: Elias Nordling Date: August 28, 2019, 1:17 am
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This scenario needs split limits, as there are not enough
flights in the countermix to split all fighter squadrons, if I'm
not mistaken.
#Post#: 2984--------------------------------------------------
Re: O23 Operation Sunrise
By: Elias Nordling Date: August 28, 2019, 5:24 am
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v0.7
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
I assumed a split limit of 4 on both sides. That worked fine,
and that's what I would advocate.
T1: German flight slips past escorts and downs one Hampden in
head-on attack, also disrupting the Hampdens.
T2: British fighters successfully defend against additional
attacks on Hampdens. One fighter each lost, and 2 German flights
broken to 1 british flight.
T3: Remaining German ftrs try to bypass escorts and head for
Wellingtons. One flight gets caught. No losses.
T4: All 4 Wellingtons tallied, but Germans only reach 1 this
turn, defended by Spitfires. Both Hampdens disr before bombing,
one by flak. 2 hits. No losses, but poor luck with bomber
cohesion roll, so 1 Well Disr. And only one defending Spit Sq
left against 3 Flights and 2 Squadrons...
T5: The shit hits the fan. 3 Well lost. ANOTHER disr Well. But
1,5 German sq break off.
T6: British now 2 flights against 2 Ger Flts, 1 Sq.
Disappointing turn for Germans with no further losses. 1,5 Ger
Sq left vs 0,5 Br.
T7: 1 more Well lost to ftrs. Last German fighter breaks off.
Ftr losses light on both sides.
T8+: Flak takes down 1 Well and disr another squadron. This was
the only bomber lost to Flak.
Final score:
Germans: 1 Hampden, 5 Wellington, 2 Spitfire: 14
British: Bombing 8 VP, 2 Bf109: 10
Final score 4: Draw
Felt like: Draw
Comment: This one felt just right as it is. The flow is
interesting with the Germans trying to get past the Spitfires to
get to the Wellingtons, the British feel somewhat desperate in
protecting the bombers, and the flak didn't dominate the game. I
felt the British could have rolled better on bomber cohesion and
scored more for bombing, but could also have lost more bombers
to both fighters and Flak. So the points felt just right.
I'm happy to sign off on this one right away.
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