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#Post#: 2664--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: Elias Nordling Date: June 21, 2019, 5:40 am
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I'd add that the cohesion hit probabilities are not including
die roll mods for losses, so the actual average is probably a
bit higher than that. Your math sounds good. I'll play it again
for another data point, and keep track of the number of flak
rolls too.
#Post#: 2667--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: Elias Nordling Date: June 22, 2019, 9:43 am
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v0.2
This time, the Germans really had to work for their attacks on
the bombers, having to take lots of "soak off combats" to get a
few unopposed attacks on the bombers, and suffering from it. As
early as the end of turn 2, there were only 1 German Squadron
and 2 flights left, and lots of British fighters circling around
them. In both games, I've felt like I have more British fighters
than I really need.
The flak really overperformed this time, taking out 3 bombers
and causing lots of cohesion hits to the bombers, for another
clear German win.
Score:
British:
Bombing 6, 15 ftrs: 21
German: 6 bombers (3 Manchester), 5 Spitfire: 20
Score 1. German win
Attacks on bombers 7 (undefended 3)
Flak fires: 9 Barrage
7 Direct fire
Comment: The bombers took 5 cohesion hits, but looking at the
number of cohesion checks and taking into account losses, 3
cohesion hits would probably be more in line with the
probabilities.
Looking at air combats alone, the German fighters probably broke
about even, taking 15 fighter losses for 3 bombers (2 of them
Manchesters) and 5 Spitfires, plus one disruption. Which
suggests the game was won by the flak.
I feel that the germans run into a wall of British fighters, and
maybe the scenario would be improved by one less raiding fighter
squadron? Then again, the Germans do get their attacks on the
bombers. I'm just not sure if the scenario works as is and need
VP calibration only, or if it should be modified.
#Post#: 2668--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 22, 2019, 11:13 am
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Is there's doubt I'm tempted to keep as-is. However, I'm aware
that we are seeing very swingy results.
#Post#: 2672--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: Elias Nordling Date: June 23, 2019, 3:00 am
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Another thought: The "ignore one tally" rule is tricky and hard
to make an advantage of, when the defenders are in wings or
escorting. What if the British couldn't tally on turn 1? That
will give the Germans one turn of attacks before the brick wall
hits.
#Post#: 2674--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 23, 2019, 3:18 am
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That's a fair point. On reflection we should ditch this rule.
#Post#: 2730--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: Okmed Date: July 5, 2019, 6:59 am
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Yes, I had a similar question about the tally cancellation rule.
I wasn't sure how it was meant to affect escort reaction. As
written, the rule applies only to rolled tallies, which I take
to mean during the Tally Phase. But a player could argue that
an escort reaction is a roll that results in one or more
tallies.
#Post#: 2896--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: chief2000 Date: August 13, 2019, 2:13 pm
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Scenario: O24 Heavy Mob
Version: v0.3
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my fifth playtest of this scenario and my
second using Wing rules. This time, I will split the Bf109
squadrons. Note: In all air combats involving the Spitfire V,
it has the edge
Set up: Height error roll on both Bf109 Wing leaders has no
effect
British: 15 (bomb run)+ 12 fighters = 27
Germans: Four Manchesters and one Halifax + five Spits) = 16
27-16=11 British victory
I Gruppe’s attempt to get at the bombers was largely
unsuccessful due to early reaction by the escorts. High escort
wing failed to tally on turn one but succeeded on subsequent
turns and one I Gruppe flight had only one chance at the first
Halifax squadron before the high cover came down. Apart from
the typical (at least from my playtests) high bomb run score the
heavily-armed and maneuverable Spits always succeed in scoring
heavily whenever they can pin the 109s in dogfights. When it
was all over, like Elias’ last playtest, I had more fighters
than I really needed. Some of them turned for home in order to
catch II Gruppe before they could do much damage to the
Manchesters.
Recommendations: Had some terrible tally rolls for II Gruppe.
Had I assigned one of the veterans to the Wing leader it would
have been different and the scenario would likely have ended in
a draw since subsequent combats on turns 9 and 10 netted four
losses on the Manchester. Flak shot down only one bomber and
there were no successful cohesion rolls. I find it difficult to
believe that the Germans could ever succeed in anything but a
draw most of the time based on my five playtests, even with
halfway decent combat rolls. Perhaps we’ve brought the point
spread down a little too far the opposite direction. We could
bump it up as follows:
+5 or less German Victory
+0 to +5 draw
+6 or more British Victory
I have the same question as Elias – shouldn’t the Manchester be
three points? If it was, the score would have been a draw.
Here is a summary of my first four playtests
First playtest
Germans: 7 points (four Spitfires, one Halifax)
British: 20 (five Bf109, 15 bombardment points)
20-7=13 British victory (barely)
Second Playtest
British: 27 points (13 bombardment points+ 14 Bf 109)
Germans: 12 (four Halifaxes) + 2 Spits
27-14=13 British victory (same score as last game)
Third Playtest
British: 21 (15 bombardment points) + 6 Bf109
Germans: 14 (Two Spit V, Two Halifax, Two Stirling)
21-14=7 German Victory
Fourth Playtest
British 19 points (15 bombardment points +4 109F losses)
Germans: 7 points (seven Spit V)
19-7=12 British victory (barely)
Better yet, we could leave the victory conditions as the are and
play by the bomb rules. This would also increase the excitement
and suspense, I think, of the scenario. After all, that is why
we have these superb bombing rules. I did several bomb runs
without cohesion checks or flak (best case) and this is what I
came up with:
Bomb run #1:
Halifax 1 – 0
Halifax 2 - 0
Stirling 1 – 25% (4)
Stirling 2 – 0
Manchester – 0
Total hits: 4 (VP: 6) . This would have made my last play a
German victory and a more historically accurate result, I think.
Bomb run #2
Halifax 1 - 0
Halifax 2 – 10% (3)
Stirling 1 – 0
Stirling 2 – 10% (2)
Manchester – 10% (3)
Total hits: 8 (VP: 12). This would have made my last play a
British victory (barely)
Bomb run #3
Halifax 1 - 25% (6)
Halifax 2 - 10% (3)
Stirling 1 – 25% (4)
Stirling 2 – 25% (4)
Manchester – 0
This would have been a clear British victory since the port
would have been pummeled.
Bomb run #4
Halifax 1 – 10% (3)
Halifax 2 - 10% (3)
Stirling 1 – 25% (4)
Stirling 2 – 0
Manchester – 0
Also a British victory (barely)
So, with cohesion checks and flak these scores would probably
have dropped some and the chances for German victory increased
accordingly.
I’d be interested to know what you think, Elias, since you’ve
also played this extensively. Is there something I am not
seeing?
#Post#: 2898--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: Elias Nordling Date: August 14, 2019, 5:16 am
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[quote]Better yet, we could leave the victory conditions as the
are and play by the bomb rules. This would also increase the
excitement and suspense, I think, of the scenario. [/quote]
I was also considering suggesting using the real bombing rules,
in fact. I think it would make you care a bit more about the
different types of bombers, as is now they become completely
interchangeable. But I thought someone changed to the current
rule for a reason and didn't want to be contrarian.
#Post#: 2906--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: pilotofficerprune Date: August 17, 2019, 5:57 am
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Okay, let's try using the bombing rules. I don't think there was
a particular reason for not doing this other than 'it's
simpler'. I think they were also copy-pasted from the Operation
Sunrise scenario.
#Post#: 2908--------------------------------------------------
Re: O24 Heavy Mob
By: chief2000 Date: August 17, 2019, 10:26 am
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This is an excellent change. I'm a big fan of the bombing rules
you created. I'll try this next week.
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