DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Airbattle Games
HTML https://airbattle.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Wing Leader General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 900--------------------------------------------------
Examples of Play
By: Peter_Wagner Date: January 16, 2019, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So there have been players on BGG who have been requesting
examples of play similar to those found in a typical GMT
Playbook. I'm interested in working some up and had a discussion
with Lee about it. He said perhaps we should go with more
situation examples rather that full blown detailed playthrough
of a scenario.
My thought is that if we don't have something printed in the 2nd
edition, what if we had a published document on Lee's support
site. This would avoid errors that we cannot fix in the printed
version and we could publish new updated ones as the need
arises. If a certain aspect of the rules needs an example down
the road, we just add it to the "Examples of Play" document on
Lee's site.
Thoughts? Also if you could provide me with specific examples of
play that would be helpful. For example, Long Range Rocket
Attacks including cloud interference and no aim modifiers.
Pete
#Post#: 901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 16, 2019, 10:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Let's think baby steps. Let's imagine an air combat-based
example of play where we don't add in any of the advanced
weapons, but focused on the basics. So I'm thinking:
Tallying
Free movement while tallied
Move order, including determining tally chains
Movement, including dive movement and circling
Lufberys(?)
Escort reaction
Head-on attacks, including situations where targets enter the
attacker's square
Air combat process
Attacker determination for attacks on bombers and for tally
chains
Tallies after combat
Dogfight roll and dogfighting
There's more I'm sure, but that's a start.
#Post#: 902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: guest25 Date: January 16, 2019, 11:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A physical example of play is nice, but it's much more important
that one is available, even if only online. It needs to be
official, hosted by GMT preferably.
Consider the purpose of a complete playthrough, as opposed to
individual examples. A complete playthrough should highlight
beginner level concepts ONLY - the core mechanics ONLY. The
more words you can strip out the better, yet you must still be
100% inclusive. Only the core mechanic should show. No
editorializing, or explaining. Just show the moves, list the
combats, all the modifiers, ect. The reason for this is you
take out all assumptions. You don't have to predict the
problems. Just show the game machine operating. People use
them to break the ice - to get started playing. Once a person
can play, they can start adding other concepts, but the primary
goal is the core mechanic. In this game it is the
tally/move/fight cycle. Move sequencing (a mechanic all its
own) can get complex, so should be introduced, but the finer
details left to individual examples (as is currently done in the
rules). Reaction is a key mechanic, so escorts have to be in
there somewhere. Edit: actually maybe not - there is a HUGE
advantage to keeping the example simple. Escorts might benefit
from a 2nd example, or maybe a mini-example.
The examples in the rules could use a few more illustrations,
but that's beside the point.
#Post#: 903--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 16, 2019, 11:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'd ask people not to worry about the venue for an EoP yet.
Maybe I can persude GMT to print it. Maybe it's something we
stick online.
What I know for sure is that its first appearance WILL be
online. And hopefully that will give us an opportunity to have
the public query it, nitpick it, and if necessary alter or rejig
it.
Other than that, I'm with Dan in that for this first EoP it's
important to have something relatively lean and focussed on core
stuff (which was why in my list I placed a question mark next to
Lufberys). Basic things like tallying, movement and combat are
essential. Some bits of that process such as tally chains,
multi-squadron combats and suchlike need to be there. Anything
more advanced like special weapons, wings and bombing we should
probably handle in a separate example.
#Post#: 907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: Peter_Wagner Date: January 16, 2019, 2:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Okay okay! So I have been working on a first EoP this afternoon
and here is what I have for the start:
[attach=1]
With this setup, we can detail basic rules of tally, movement,
and air combat. Details that would be demonstrated would be:
1) tally modifiers like clouds, sun arc, and behind (110 has
rear view so that can be included)
2) movement towards vector
3) a head on combat situation
4) reaction rolls
5) basic combat (nothing fancy)
Is this perhaps too ambitious for a first EoP?
Pete
#Post#: 909--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 16, 2019, 3:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It's looking good so far.
The only thing I wonder is whether it should have the capacity
to handle a simple tally chain and at least one multi-squadron
combat.
#Post#: 922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: guest25 Date: January 17, 2019, 6:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
First impression:
[list]
[li]It's too complex. Scope creep will bite you on these
exercises, so keep it simple at the start.[/li]
[li]The very first thing a player typically does in the game
(besides setup) is maneuver, so I would introduce movement
first. If you start with a tally sequence (which is more
complex than movement), you will lose readers faster. Start the
aircraft out of Tally possibility, but within one move. I would
prefer a complete game shown, so am not saying you should not
start at the beginning, just separate things a bit so tally can
be brushed over at first.[/li]
[li]Remove the clouds. Players can figure those out on their
own. Ignore the complexity of the sun and LOS.[/li]
[li]Remove several aircraft. Here you will have to plan ahead.
I'm not sure what your goals are with tally seq or escorts. It
could be that you are setting up for a tally sequence demo,
which is fine. Just be aware you are borderline over-complex
now, and things will likely get more complex as you develop your
document.[/li]
[/list]
I know a lot of this is probably already running through your
mind. As an aside, editorial comments are extremely useful.
Unfortunately they're extremely dangerous as well. All too
often rules end up getting defined in an EoP by this type of
writing, and a designer can easily paint himself into a corner.
Use them, but keep them to a minimum.
The problem we are trying to solve: core concepts get buried in
the rules. As a veteran player, you take them for granted. A
newbie is overwhelmed. This is an opportunity to highlight the
core rules - the key stuff. I would expect a demonstration of
the following...
Basic concepts:
[list]
[li]Movement restrictions, specifically movement to vectors, and
escort/bomber move requirements/restrictions. Shortest route
concept is shown, including mention of the requirement to gain
altitude.[/li]
[li]A unit is not required to move it's full distance [sounds
stupid, but I'm an experienced gamer, and the question came up
in my mind]'[/li]
[li]Alertness level, and effect. (Affects only bounce? Not
sure.) Show how an un-alerted unit can still make a tally
attempt. It's not obvious to a new player.[/li]
[li]Use of Climb/Dive markers, and effect on both Speed and MP.
A mention of the asymmetry would be useful.[/li]
[li] Protection values from ADCs usage should be shown, using a
unit with a number range. eg Protection 4-5 H. If I roll a 1,
2 or 3 I get a hit. If I roll a 4 or 5 I get a straggler. If I
roll a six I miss. That's too wordy - you can improve on it,
but the point is - just saying it is a huge thing. I didn't
understand that for hours and hours, myself. A mention of the
significance of H is warranted. Here we have two fairly opaque
concepts sharing the same space[/li]
[li]When you do a head on attack, mention that they are
mandatory if conditions allow, and that they can only be speed
attacks.[/li]
[li]When you do a turning attack, highlight the bonuses bombers
get.[/li]
[li]This is getting advanced, but show how one good attacker can
effectively lead lower quality aircraft into a fight (another
core concept).[/li]
[/list]
There are other concepts that belong on this list I think - you
see the challenge. Finally, don't underestimate the
intelligence of your audience. You are not teaching this game
to laymen. DO NOT mention obvious stuff. New players understand
how altitude bands work, as an example.
#Post#: 1049--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: Peter_Wagner Date: January 20, 2019, 3:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ok, Here is what I have so far. Feedback much appreciated before
I get to much farther into it.
Wing Leader Example of Play #1
Pictured below is a situation in which we have the Germans
raiding and the British defending:
[attach=1]
German squadron J (Bf 110C-4) is assigned an Escort mission
[9.2.2] and squadron D (Bf 109E-4) is on a Sweep mission
[9.2.3]. Squadrons T and S (He 111) are on a Bombing mission
[9.2.1]. Both fighter squadrons are on separate radio nets.
British squadrons A (Spitfire Mk.1A), G and H (Hurricane Mk.I)
are all assigned Intercept missions [9.2.4] and their vectors
placed. British squadrons ONLY are using Rigid Doctrine [5.1].
Each squadron is on a separate radio net that is in contact with
GCI.
Pictured below are the German and British Wing Displays:
[attach=2]
Turn 1 – Tally Phase
German squadron D attempts to tally British squadron A three
squares below. 1D6 is rolled with a result of 2. Squadron D is
veteran quality and gets a +1 DRM to the roll which becomes a 3.
The tally attempt fails since a modified roll greater than the
distance to the target is required to tally [7.2.1]. German
squadron J attempts to tally British squadron G two squares
above and behind. Normally this would incur a -2 DRM to the roll
but since the Bf 110C-4 ADC lists Rear View as an ability, this
modifier is avoided. The tally roll is a 4. This is greater than
the distance to the target, but the LOS passes through some
Wispy Clouds which applies a -1 DRM. The target is also In the
Sun [4.6.2] resulting in another -1 DRM. Together, this modifies
the roll down to a 2. No tally.
British squadron G attempts to tally bomber squadron S and rolls
a 2. It gets a -1 DRM for clouds, a +2 DRM for the target being
in a Large Formation [9.1 see Tally Chart], and another +1 DRM
for GCI control on their radio net. This modifies to roll to a 4
which is a successful tally. Squadron G’s vector is flipped to
its tally side and placed on the tallied target. Squadron H
desires to tally bomber squadron T but no roll is necessary
since the DRMs for large formation and GCI guarantee a success.
Squadron A attempts to tally squadron D above it and rolls a 1
which fails.
[attach=3]
Turn 1 – Movement Phase
Escorts move first. Squadron J moves forward 2 spaces. Next the
bombers move. The raider player opts to move squadron S first
moving it forward 2 spaces. This triggers British squadron G to
move at this time since it has a tally on squadron S [7.2.3].
Squadron G moves forward 3 spaces to H5 and then rotates down 45
degrees to move down into I4 (4 MP used total). Next the German
player moves squadron T forward 2 spaces triggering squadron H’s
movement. Squadron H rotates up 45 degrees and climbs up into E3
(1 MP) then rotates back 45 degrees back down and flies two
spaces forward to G3 (2 MP). Non-alerted squadrons move next
which is only squadron D. He flies forward 2 spaces. Last to
move is squadron A who still has a vector on map since it failed
to tally. He climbs up into L2 for (1 MP) then climbs once more
up into K3 (2 MP). Even though the second climb was at an
altitude that is listed on the Spitfire ADC as costing 1 MP, the
second climb in a movement phase ALWAYS costs 2 MP [8.3].
Pictured below is the situation after the movement phase:
[attach=4]
#Post#: 1066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 21, 2019, 5:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It looks good so far. I think we are about right on the brevity
of the text, though I'd like to know what others like Dan think.
I'm just going to comment on those things that jumped out at me.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Both fighter squadrons are on separate radio
nets. . . . Each squadron is on a separate radio net that is in
contact with GCI.[/quote]
I wonder if in addition to the text you gave here, we should
list the radio nets to illustrate how they work. I'm thinking
about how we lay this out on the page. Some details, like a list
of radio nets, could be sidebarred as follows:
Radio Nets
The radio nets are as follows:
Ack - Spitfire squadron A and GCI
Beer - Hurricane squadron G and GCI
Charlie - Hurricane squadron H and GCI
Dora - Bf 110C squadron J
Emil - Bf 109E squadron D
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]German squadron D attempts to tally British
squadron A three squares below.[/quote]
I think it might be clearer if you specify the square as well as
the distance. "German squadron D attempts to tally British
squadron A, three squares away in M1"
A thing I'm aware of is that if this is laid out on a page, some
of the text might be over the page where the player cannot see
the illustration. It's probably not bad to list distances for
clarity.
I appreciate that as the example of play goes on, you won't need
to lavishly detail every evolution, and can rely on examples
given earlier.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Squadron D is veteran quality and gets a +1 DRM
to the roll which becomes a 3.[/quote]
Maybe it should be 'so gets a +1', to make it plain the modifier
is a consequence of veterancy? I've avoided the ASL-isms 'DRM'
and 'drm' in the rules, preferring just to use the word
'modifier'. So maybe this should be: 'Squadron D is veteran
quality, so gets a +1 modifier to the roll, which becomes a 3.'
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]The target is also In the Sun [4.6.2] resulting
in another -1 DRM.[/quote]
We haven't specified the Sun direction anywhere in the preamble,
and probably should do so. Do we need a separate illustration
showing the Sun arc relative to the tallying Bf 110C?
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]British squadron G attempts to tally bomber
squadron S and rolls a 2.[/quote]
Again, though I know we have a picture for players to look at,
should we list the distance in this sentence: 'British squadron
G attempts to tally bomber squadron S, which is 3 squares away,
and rolls a 2'.
It's a shame in some ways that this squadron is not attempting
to tally bomber squadron T, because we could then have a sidebar
about the line of sight passing through two cloud squares, but
noting that only a -1 modifier is applied because weather
modifiers are not cumulative, per 4.7.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Squadron H desires to tally bomber squadron T
but no roll is necessary since the DRMs for large formation and
GCI guarantee a success.[/quote]
I would not write this. We do not have the concept in the rules
of not rolling the dice because a result is a certainty. I think
it's okay to say that the result is a cert because the modifiers
are so high, but in the example we should still roll.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Turn 1 – Movement Phase[/quote]
I'm thinking that we may need some some arrows and other
graphics on the after (or before?) image, showing the moves.
What do you think?
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]This triggers British squadron G to move at this
time since it has a tally on squadron S [7.2.3].[/quote]
For this first example of the 6.1.2 Tally Rule, I'd suggest this
wording: 'Squadron S's move triggers British squadron G to move
immediately after, since it has a tally on that squadron [6.1.2,
7.2.3]' I just want to punch up the idea that tallies are
intimately linked to the moves of tallied targets.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Squadron G moves forward 3 spaces to H5 and then
rotates down 45 degrees to move down into I4 (4 MP used
total).[/quote]
I'd suggest this wording: 'Squadron G moves forward 3 spaces to
H5 and then rotates down 45 degrees before moving into I4 (4 MP
used total).' I like to use the word 'before' to reinforce the
notion that turning comes before a move.
[quote author=Peter Wagner link=topic=62.msg1049#msg1049
date=1548019579]Squadron H rotates up 45 degrees and climbs up
into E3 (1 MP) then rotates back 45 degrees back down and flies
two spaces forward to G3 (2 MP).[/quote]
I'd suggest this wording: 'Squadron H rotates up 45 degrees
before climbing up into E3 (1 MP) then rotates back 45 degrees
back to level flight and flies two spaces forward to G3 (2 MP).'
Again, just to punch up the idea of 'turn before move' and with
all the 'up/down' terminology being used it's okay to say 'level
flight', which is defined in rule 1.1.
*
Other than that, great stuff!
#Post#: 1151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Examples of Play
By: chief2000 Date: January 23, 2019, 7:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This brings me to a question that I think was answered well by
this example of play. If I climb and my ADC's climb cost is one
does that mean one or one in addition to the square I just moved
into?
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page