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#Post#: 809--------------------------------------------------
Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 8, 2019, 8:56 am
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I have discovered that in certain situations, it can matter in
which order you assign tallies after combat. Specifically, in a
3 vs 2 situation (or other situation with multiple air units in
combat on both sides), the assignment of tallies can determining
who's the attacker, which in turn can matter if both sides have
the same speed but different turn rate. I think that if one side
has higher speed, he can make sure he is the attacker more or
less no matter how the tallies are chained, but I'm not sure.
The whole thing makes my head spin!
#Post#: 810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 8, 2019, 9:04 am
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Or maybe it doesn't matter. You can roll for tallies in the
following phase against anyone in the square anyway, and unless
you are green, success is automatic.
#Post#: 811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 8, 2019, 10:03 am
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[quote author=Elias Nordling link=topic=58.msg809#msg809
date=1546959384]I have discovered that in certain situations, it
can matter in which order you assign tallies after combat.
Specifically, in a 3 vs 2 situation (or other situation with
multiple air units in combat on both sides), the assignment of
tallies can determining who's the attacker, which in turn can
matter if both sides have the same speed but different turn
rate. I think that if one side has higher speed, he can make
sure he is the attacker more or less no matter how the tallies
are chained, but I'm not sure. The whole thing makes my head
spin![/quote]
Am I missing something? How can the order of handing out tallies
affect who is the attacker? Surely, in a chain, 10.1.3 applies
and the either highest speed or turn determines the attacker,
depending on whether it is a dogfight.
#Post#: 812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 9, 2019, 1:26 am
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[quote]Surely, in a chain, 10.1.3 applies and the either highest
speed or turn determines the attacker, depending on whether it
is a dogfight.[/quote]
No, the last unit moved determines who's the attacker, and in a
combat with 3 versus 2 units, that can depend on how the tallies
are chained. At least I think it can, trying to figure the
possible chains makes my head hurt. Ironically, it seems like
the player that has the LOWEST basic speed can control who's the
attacker, since he decides which part of the tally chain to pull
first.
#Post#: 813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 9, 2019, 3:27 am
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Okay, so the order of the chain is determining the attacker, as
per 6.1.2. The rule makes perfrect sense for a first combat.
However, the problem comes with the second and subsequent
combat, when the chain can be rearranged.
How can we untangle this, so that it is simpler?
Just for context, the rule for assigning tallies has its roots
in the intention that once in an air combat, a squadron is
committed to that combat and cannot continue pursuit on targets
outside the square.
#Post#: 814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 9, 2019, 3:49 am
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The problem is of course that the game has no "memory" from last
turn, with the exception of dogfights.
You could add a clause that if no one moved into the combat
square this turn, the move order becomes irrelevant, but that
would possibly introduce new ways of gaming this as you could
drop the tally with one squadron dragging the rest of the chain
with it by moving out. Then again, this could backfire if the
other fighters don't move out... I think that could work.
Another possibility would be to add a clause for fighter-fighter
combats with more than one fighter on either side, the one with
more fighters is the attacker, which I THINK is what you end up
with in practice in most situations with the current rule. But
I'm not sure if there are also ways to game 2 vs 2 combats.
Maybe both in combination?
I haven't had a lot of this before because I usually find adding
more than one fighter to combat inefficient, but Desperate
Improvisation is a scenario that pushes you in new directions
:-)
#Post#: 815--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 9, 2019, 3:58 am
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Where there's a problem I am trying to head in the direction of
the simplest solution.
'Last to move in' is such a powerful rule, as it givers such an
advantage to the initiative holder, as it should.
Your 'side with more fighters' idea is intriguing, but we'd
still need to tie break and I suspect there are ways to game
this.
I can't help feeling that we need to separate combats into two
categories:
(a) Those where squadrons entered the square in the previous
movement phase, and
(b) Those where they didn't (a category into which many
dogfights fall)
The alternative is to re-examine rule 7.2.4 and apply it only to
units that do not have a tally on an enemy in the same square.
Damn you, Elias, for finding such a knotty problem!
#Post#: 816--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 9, 2019, 4:23 am
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Determining the attacker in combats where both sides start in
the square is something I've spent an inordinate amount of time
with for often minor game effects (but not in this particular
case), which suggests a simple clause would be in order.
If you define "continuing combats", then it would make sense to
basically use the same way to determine the attacker as for
dogfights, that is use the speed rather than the turn rate, and
roll for tie-breaks.
Even though it would flip the situation to my disadvantage in
Desperate Improvisation :-) Those 5-7 fighters are peculiar.
#Post#: 817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 9, 2019, 5:29 am
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[quote author=Elias Nordling link=topic=58.msg816#msg816
date=1547029393]If you define "continuing combats", then it
would make sense to basically use the same way to determine the
attacker as for dogfights, that is use the speed rather than the
turn rate, and roll for tie-breaks.[/quote]
I suppose so, yes. I'm just trying to think of a way to phrase
such a rule without it making things worse, or more complex.
Let's get it straight what the issue is:
(a) For non-continuing combats the existing rule works fine and
I don't want to change it.
(b) Continuing combats can be manipulated by jiggering with
tallies
It's really (b) I want to resolve ideally.
#Post#: 818--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tally order in combat
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 9, 2019, 5:41 am
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Agreed. For first-turn combats, there is very little opportunity
for that kind of jiggering.
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