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#Post#: 144--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: pilotofficerprune Date: September 16, 2018, 11:24 am
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The Ju 87Gs should be hauling AT Pods, and in the 2e rules those
are worth 5 against ships. Admittedly, the Hs 129B-1 has a
feeble firepower of 2.
#Post#: 212--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: Gordon Christie Date: September 25, 2018, 6:47 am
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Andrew (Soviet) and I have now had a couple of runs through this
scenario.
The first run was something of an outlier. All of the German
fighters broke early leaving several Soviet squadrons to
concentrate on the bombers which where, consequently, massacred.
No fewer than 15 German bombers were lost together with a couple
of fighters and five or so Soviet fighters. Bombing was
ineffective; in particular the low altitude strafers achieved
very little beyond racking up Soviet victory points.
Our impression at the end of the first run was that this was
very hard work for the Germans. We gave the Germans and
additional veteran unit for the second run through.
This was considerably more balanced, although still relatively
hard work for the Germans. Soviet flak rolls were excellent,
accounting for 5 of the 7 German bombers lost. Fighter losses
were 2 for the Germans, and 5 for the Soviets. Two hits were
inflicted on the auxiliary, and 12 on the bunker. Still a
convincing Soviet victory, although with less outlandishly good
flak rules it could have been a great deal tighter. Once again
it is relatively difficult for the low Germans to achieve a lot
– on this run the flak more than made up for relatively
ineffective Soviet fighters but the low altitude strafers do
lack punch – an additional veteran might help, although it might
have to be put into the strafers by SSR as, playing the numbers,
a sensible German player would clearly allocate it to the high
dive bombers.
We noticed that the victory thresholds had shifted slightly in
favour of the Germans in the latest rules version, which I think
is definitely worthwhile.
Overall suggestions would be to give the Germans at least 1
additional veteran, possibly 2. It might also be worth replacing
the auxiliary 2 with an auxiliary 1 (which is in the Supremacy
character sheet) to tone down the flak that the low altitude
German strafers will face.
Minor additional comment – the P–39s are P – 39Qs which are
noted on the ADC as entering service in July 1943 for a scenario
set in April 1943. I suspect historically they would you have
been – Ds, probably, –N Airacobras. I'm not sure there's much
that can be done about this (and the relevant values are
identical at low altitude) if we want to keep them in the
scenario (which I think is a good thing as this does demonstrate
the strengths of the P– 39 at low level) but if we reach a
Supremacy second edition the P-39Q ADC might be worth a note
including the –N with an earlier service entry date.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 220--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: pilotofficerprune Date: September 25, 2018, 4:00 pm
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Okay to the additional German veteran and the Aux 2 to Aux 1
switch.
You're right that the P-39s should be Ns and i can handle that
with a note in the special rules. The second edition of the
P-39Q ADC will indeed include the N as a variant.
#Post#: 379--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: Elias Nordling Date: October 21, 2018, 8:54 am
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Version 0.4
Players: Elias Nordling (solo)
Had another game of this one. The German fighters were fairly
successful and stayed in business to the end. The Soviets had
some attacks on all the bombers but didn't achieve much,
breaking the Ju87G being the only result of note. The German
bombing rioll sere successful, but not out of line, causing 18
hits on the bunker and 4 on the Aux.
Score:
Germans:
4 damage on Aux 2, 18 on bunker: 17
4 P39, 3 Yak 7
Ger tot: 24
Sov: 2 Bf109, 4 Ju87: 6
TOTAL 18
Massive German victory. Felt like a victory.
Did we ever resolve the thing about the Hs129 and bombs? It
feels kind of ridiculous, it has to make 3 passes ove the target
to use both its guns and the bombs. And since the bombs will be
level bombing, the guns are its best shot, which means the bombs
will just sit there making the planes easier to hit until the
final pass.
Sugestions: Not sure. I didn't feel the need for the extra
German vet to begin with, and this was a massive win for them,
but it might have been an aberration. I'll play it again.
#Post#: 380--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: Elias Nordling Date: October 21, 2018, 10:20 am
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Another playthrough:
Version 0.4
Players: Elias Nordling (solo)
This time the Soviet fighters were almost completely
ineffective. They caused no disruptions on the bombers, and the
few losses they caused didn't equal the losses they took. They
were on the other hand saved by very efficient Flak firing,
causing several losses and disruptions.
Score:
German:
Bombing: 2 hits on aux 1, 8 hits on bunker: 9
8 Sov ftrs.
17
Sov: 3 Ger ftrs, 7 bombers: 10
Total 7. Draw. Felt like a Soviet victory
#Post#: 381--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 21, 2018, 10:46 am
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I don’t understand the ‘three passes’ to use guns and bombs.
Surely it’s two passes. Or are you saying that it can make three
passes total with bombs and guns?
#Post#: 382--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 21, 2018, 11:02 am
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Okay, changes:
- Reduce German veterans by 1
- Shifted the draw window upwards, in line with the mean VP
outputs, so as to give the Soviets a victory on your fourth
playing
For reference, here are the Mean VPs:
Elias 1 = 3
Elias 2 = 10
Elias 3 = 18
Elias 4 = 7
Average: 9.5
As for the Hs 129, what if we simply gave it the Low Drag
ability? It makes sense, given the lightness of the load. And
would resolve many of your misgivings about the aircraft.
#Post#: 383--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 21, 2018, 11:09 am
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Oops, ha ha! I just checked and we already assigned the Low Drag
ability to the Hs 129, and this has been on the ADC since at
least July. So it should not be hindered by its bomb load.
#Post#: 386--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: Elias Nordling Date: October 21, 2018, 1:03 pm
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Low Drag! Sneaky solution! :-) I don't think it affected the
results.
#Post#: 708--------------------------------------------------
Re: E17 Kuban Meatgrinder
By: Elias Nordling Date: December 11, 2018, 4:40 am
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v0.5
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
I was playing this to see how recent changes to bombing mods
affected it. The only thing I can tell for sure, however, is
that the Soviets will win if the Germans roll 5 or less and the
Soviets 9 or more on everything.
Because of this, the German fighters failed their cohesion rolls
early, and one even had the disgrace of failing to tally
ANYTHING, leaving the map on its return sweep without having
achieved anything!
Because of this the German bombers took a beating, and the
Stukas especially failed, much thanks to being disrupted when
bombing. The Ju87G and HS129 actually did better, getting 5 hits
on the Aux.
Final result:
Score: Germans 7 bombing (5 hits against Aux1) +5 Sov ftrs: 12
Sov: 1 Bf109, 1 Hs123, 1 Ju87G, 8 Ju87D: 11
Final: 1 Decisive Soviet win
Suggestions: Obviously, having an additional -1 for the flights
strafing will have SOME effect, and the Stukas are likely to
suffer some disruption too. My gut feeling is that the Germans
should have back the veteran removed in the last adjustment as
compensation.
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