DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Airbattle Games
HTML https://airbattle.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: IGNORE: Wing Leader Playtest Archive
*****************************************************
#Post#: 515--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 8, 2018, 2:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
V0.8, with modified VC:s as per above.
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
Since victory conditions steer the behavior, I thought I'd try
the scenario with the ne victory conditions to see if it created
any unexpected behavior. And, well, this was not the game to
judge.
The US failed the tally rolls with the wing, so one of its
squadrons went steep angle bombing while the other two squadrons
engaged the Japanese. they in turn ganged up into one big mob
for combat. The reason they did this was, by turn 2, the US had
already lost two fighters to Flak! The would go on to lose two
more by turn 3. The air combat quickly turned irrelevant, as the
US failed to score a single hit with the bombing and two
strafings. Since the other two squadrons had jettisoned their
bombs, the only way they could get the required point for
bombing results would be to ignore the Japanese fighters and
dive down to strafe while they still had ine increment of
ammunition left. The Japanese, in turn, could then just fly home
with a safe loss margin. So the game was over by turn 3.
I think the result would have been the same US defeat with all
the previous iterations of the Victory conditions too.
I'm beginning to think the best US strategy might be to bomb
with everyone. Sure, you give the japanese the altitude
advantage, but at least they cannot gang up on any fighters
remaining high while the other US squadrons are unable to
interfer.
#Post#: 516--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 8, 2018, 2:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
V0.8, with modified VC:s as per above.
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
Another extremely short playthrough. I think I've found a flaw
in the victory conditions.
The US all bombed. The Japanese all failed their tally rolls.
The US are now on the deck, the Japanese high above, out of
tally range, unable to throw a new vector, while the US fighters
fly off into the sunset with their VP for the bombing, without
any air combat having happened.
If the Japanese had anticipated this and placed a low vector,
there is still a fair chance that the US fighters could get a
clean break. Also, the US player sees the Japanese vector before
rolling for tallies and can adjust the plan accordingly, instead
bouncing the Japanese fighters with altitude advantage.
Adding another victory condition that the US can't win unless
they shoot down Japanese fighters won't work, because we are
then back to the Japanese winning by running away.
What is it with this scenario making it SO hard to fix?
I think it might be better to go back to a setup where tallies
are almost guaranteed, as failed tallies make the scenario far
too swingy.
I'm not sure the VP cap for the airfield serves its purpose. I
feel leaving a reduced force high is worse than abandoning the
altitude advantage, and there is a real chance of busting the
bombing if you bomb with just one squadron, so you might as well
bomb with everybody right away anyway.
A potential, but not very clean fix to the VC:s above:
1 point if the US scores at least 2 hits on the airfield.
(reducing the requirement so that one 25% bombing hit is enough)
1 point if the US scores 12 hits against the airfield (this is
probably only realistic if the Japanese run away, so it prevents
that)
1 point if the US shoots down 3 more (rather than 5 which I
think is too steep) aircraft than the Japanese shoots down.
1 point if the US shoots down at least 2 Japanese fighters.
-1 point if the Japanese shoots down at least 3 US fighters.
The US now need 2 points to win. 1 point is a draw.
It feels awkward, but I think it forces both sides into air
combat.
#Post#: 517--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 9, 2018, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
What if we were to give the high Japanese a free tally at the
start?
I'd like to suggest a special rule like 'the first Japanese
tally attempt of the first turn is automatically successful'.
#Post#: 519--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 10, 2018, 12:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think that only reinforces the fact that it is best to
bombwith all the US fighters on turn 1.
#Post#: 520--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 10, 2018, 2:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not convinced. Looking at the set-up I can see options, not
least that I may well want to split one or more of the high
squadrons, particularly if it has a veteran. A split would at
least permit me to send a flight down, and with your earlier
victory conditions, three hits seems entirely do-able, even with
flights.
#Post#: 521--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 10, 2018, 3:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but the problem is that if you send some of the fighters
down to bomb while others remain high, the Japanese can stay
high with all fighters. The bombing fighters are more or less
out of the game while the Japanese have numerical superiority.
The only real somution to this that I see is to keep the US
fighters together by diving with all of them. The Japanese will
then have an altitude advantage, but at least that goes away
once they engage, giving the US fighters a chance to make a
comeback.
#Post#: 522--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 11, 2018, 2:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I’m kinda seeing this as part of the puzzle. However you do the
scenario, you have to send someone down to bomb. The call is
whether you risk being at a disadvantage to the defenders by
sending everyone down.
Something we haven’t talked about, and I think we should, is the
opportunities for using the ‘take a 7’ optional rule on p45 of
the rulebook.
The base modifiers for a steep diving attack from altitude 1 are
+1. Veterans bump this to +2. So a single squadron will score 3
hits. The thing that can shift this down is flak mods, or the
results of a bad flak cohesion roll.
If we suggest in the special rules that the optional rule is
recommended, then assigning veterans to the low P-51 almost but
not quite guarantees 3 hits. But that also forces the initiative
back to the high P-51s, as I see it.
#Post#: 527--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Gordon Christie Date: November 11, 2018, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My sense is that the current VPs will work.On every one of 8
plays (VASSAL against Andrew of FtF with lee) so far if the
Japanese engage with advantage (essentially as the attacker)
they would have won (shooting down at least 3 US fighters &
avoiding a US victory margin of 3 or more)-if the US send
everyone down the Japanese engage with advantage &
will-likely-win; the US need to stay high with at least some
,fighters to prevent this. The combat outcome difference between
speed (+2 to the US) vs turning (0) is huge & the Japanese have
a reasonable chance of generating dogfights if they are diving
to attack Mustangs which are not diving making most of the
combats 0 (allowing for veterans etc shifts it slightly to the
US but not by much).
I think the current victory conditions are simple, challenging
for both sides & cannot obviously be gamed. They also reflect
history reasonably well- I like the encouragement for the US not
to lose too many aircraft.
It's also good that there are plenty of choices & options for
both sides-this will bear repeated replay without becoming stale
IMHO.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 533--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 12, 2018, 2:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Gordon: If the US player stays high with some units, I would
concentrate on them as the Japanese ignoring the low fighter and
get the advantage I need anyway. If the US all dive down AND the
Japanese have vectored for a high attack, failing to roll tally,
the US can then exit the map without combat.
I think this would be a good time for a PBEM game of this
scenario to see how outr different solutions to this puzzle
match up.
#Post#: 534--------------------------------------------------
Re: E13 Desperate Improvisation
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 12, 2018, 3:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Check out the change to the latest version of the scenario. This
uses the first iteration of your scoring.
The intersting thing here is that with the Japanese getting an
auto-tally, they can always follow the Americans down if the
Americans let them. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, because
when I tried that against Gordon, I found myself vulnerable to
defending against Japanese attacks, and on defence the P-51s are
very vulnerable.
There's an interesting puzzle here.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page