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#Post#: 7045--------------------------------------------------
S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 1, 2020, 1:29 pm
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Here is Gordon and Andrew's initial playthrough:
Andrew (Rumanian) & I have had a look at Plastering Ploesti; 2
runs so far, the second one involving major change. We'll have
another run at the modified version then move on to Piling On.
Run 1 as written:
USAAF 13 losses 1 hit on factory
FAR 5 losses
FAR +19.5
USAAF +6
FAR win ; felt like it
We felt there were some problems with this as written. The
Rumanian fighters can initially engage with advantage but
thereafter the Rumanians have a choice between continuing to
harry the bombers with the fighters or leaving them to the flak.
This time out Andrew (Rumanian) elected to use the fighters. At
least one blue on blue kill from the flak. The fighters ran out
of steam before bombing & the fearsome flak managed to prevent
effective bombing.
Still felt slightly unsatisfying. First time out-a bit like Foul
up over Wewak-I can remember feeling that this one, indefinably,
didn't quite gel. With the benefit of greater playlets
experience there is too much flak making for a bit too much
wristage & calculating exactly which channels of fire go where.
As written the Lightnings can also climb pretty much clear of
the light flak & can probably manage their bomb runs to avoid
both light flak direct fire & light flak in barrage mode.
This prompted us to go away & look at the history, best summed
up in a proposed revise introduction:
Narrative: Despite the 30% losses in the 1943 low level B-24
mission against Ploesti
15th AF planners devised a low level P-38 strike against the
Romania Americana
refinery relying on the speed of the P-38s to achieve surprise
and prevent fighter intervention
or the deployment of smoke over the target.
The plan was fatally flawed. Axis early warning detected the
raid early. Part of the escort
missed a waypoint & were bounced by Rumanian IAR 81s over their
home airfield. The
main force was harried by the IAR 81s and later arriving Axis
fighters on the final approach
to the target. The Axis fighters drew off as the bombers entered
the intense flak barrage, suffering
heavy losses. More Axis fighters harried the P-38s on egress.
Damage to the refinery was minimal
and P-38 losses were 30%. Low level attacks on Ploesti were not
repeated.
This implied a fairly major rework. It was a low level fighter
bomber raid which is interesting in itself & gives the attacker
some interesting choices in the same fashion as Return of the
Guards. We change the cloud to wispy D5-J5 & N7-U7, slightly
limiting Axis fighter entry choices (of which more later...).
The refinery moves to M0 with Light flak B in N0 & Heavy flak C
in M0. Haze (smokescreen) over the refinery. Sun stays above.
USAAF setup: Sweep Lightnings in T2, V1 (historically a couple
of escort squadrons seem to have missed a waypoint & found
themselves over a Rumanian airfield. They shot down some
trainers & were then bounced by IAR 81s based there which had
scrambled just beforehand. The Rumanians had the better of the
ensuing scrap 8:3 or thereabouts (internet sources differ:-)).
Remaining Lightnings enter in Z2 on GT2 in trail (4 squadrons
bombers) with 2 squadrons escorting the bombers.
The remaining 2 Rumanian IAR squadrons plus 2 (additional) LW
109 squadrons enter GT7 or later at least 2 squares from any US
squadron. This should leave the Axis player with a choice about
bringing the later arrivals in for a brief attack on the
bombers before entering the flak zone (a good place for the Axis
fighters not to be...) or waiting to hit the (inevitably
somewhat scuffed) Lightnings on egress. With the target in the
middle of the map there will be time for the late arrivals to
hit the disadvantaged Lightnings as they leave. Probably the
Axis player will generally elect to split the late arrivals &
cover both options but it fits the historical narrative & offers
choices.
Suggested SSRs:
Delete 2. Tactical flexibility probably doesn't make much odds
here with an expanded Axis OOB.
Add bombing Lightnings must exit L map edge.
We played this run with the flak having improved fire direction
though that might be a bit much & we wouldn't recommend that.
Similarly we brought the reinforcing Axis fighters in GT6 or
later which was slightly early to have the intended effect so
would suggest going for GT7 in a modified version.
This worked reasonably well. Flak grim, but not absolutely
overwhelming & an astute US player can climb for a steep angle
attack to minimise the impact of the light flak (...in other
words play better than I did :-)), though at the price of
leaving climbing bombers at risk from fighters for several turns
& accepting less than optimal bombing modifiers. Massing the
bombers to saturate the flak leaves them more exposed to the
late arriving fighters (which is good, more choices...). Flak
was vicious though high flak rolls were balanced by good
cohesion rolls & bombing rolls so in the end the dice favours no
one.
USAAF 23 P-38s 9 hits on refinery (+12)
Axis 7 IAR 81 5 Bf 109
VP
USAAF +24
Axis +34.5
Rumanian win; felt like though possibly relatively marginal.
Useful bombing result but historical P-38 losses & slightly
higher than historical Axis fighter losses
Delete improved fire direction for flak.
High rolls for bombing and flak. Not notably partial.
Thoughts:
Subtract US from Axis VP This should be about low end of Axis
win.
P-38 max losses should probably be squadron 9, flights 4 (96
aircraft set out but 20 or so had dropped out due to technical
problems on the long low level transit out)
Satisfying to see historical P-38 losses. From a bit of internet
trawling I think the Rumanians may well have lost more than 2
aircraft,ut almost certainly fewer than the number lost here.
...and I should also have included that 2 Rumanian IAR81
squadrons start on map on or right of R at any altitude, any
facing. The intention is that they will be handily placed to
bounce the low Lightning sweep on GT1. Slightly scripted but
sticks to the history.
...and the sun was R upper & should stay there (above was an
error in the last post)
#Post#: 7047--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 1, 2020, 1:46 pm
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I've now incorporated the (many) changes into a new edition of
this scenario in the new 01Dec20 Supremacy 2e scenario file just
posted to dropbox. Can Andrew and Gordon please check these over
on their playthrough on Wednesday?
#Post#: 7069--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: Gordon Christie Date: December 4, 2020, 6:37 am
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Second test incomplete but promising:-)) Should finish on
Saturday.
Passing thought about the setup. I’d be inclined to take the
wing thing out entirely fir the Americans. Not sure how a wing
with bombers & escorts would work. Simpler (I think) to take it
our entirely & have no wings for the US?
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 7070--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 4, 2020, 11:20 am
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Roger that.
#Post#: 7083--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 5, 2020, 4:23 am
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Okay, I have de-winged the scenario.
#Post#: 7099--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: Gordon Christie Date: December 6, 2020, 10:32 am
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Second run at the modified Plastering Ploesti scenario....
This time out I managed the US bombing better. The Lightnings
climbed to alt 5 above the light flak & the leaders circled
briefly to mass in P5 & Q5 before running in at speed 3 for a
single turn of heavy flak attacks before bombing. Steep angling
from M5 sees the bombers dive (4MP) to K1 or K2 after bombing in
M2 (above any potential light flak barrage as the rules
currently stand) clear of light flak in M0. We tweaked this by
putting an additional light flak B in L0 & moving the M0 Light
Falk B to N0 to ensure there was no light flak free path over
the target for the bombers which allowed bombing from alt 2
(with the -1 bombing mod for T bombsights).
Somewhat against the odds the US sweep broke both Rumanian
starting squadrons leaving one US squadron still in play
(disrupted) for 5 losses each. A single 109 squadron failed to
get much traction on the bombers which then bombed poorly (5
hits, 6 VP) against unimpressive flak rolls (only 3 P-38
losses). The bombers came off the target in surprisingly good
shape & had slightly the better of the fighter vs fighter combat
against the 3 remaining Axis squadrons on the egress though a
smarter move might have been for at least 1 squadron to escape
intact & harvest the 10 bonus VPs....
Final outcome:
USAAF 15 Lightnings 5 hits on refinery
Axis 15 fighter losses
VP
USAAF 15 +6 ---> +21
Axis 22.5
Draw to borderline USAAF win (equal fighter losses which US
could better afford than Axis & some damage to refinery)
Poor US play- the 10 exit VP were available & not taken
Need Haze in target square (smokescreen); also second light flak
B (L0, N0) to avoid bombers being able to attack unattacked by
flak or barrage
Alternative would be 4 channels of heavy flak (2 heavy flak B)
or should Heavy flak C be 4 channels? i'd prefer heavy flak C
(unique to this scenario) to be 4 channels, one for each
attacking bomber. This is a fairly unique situation, effectively
a late war Grossbatterie, so having an unusual flak counter
doesn't seem unreasonable & no other scenario uses Heavy Flak C.
It feels a bit odd to have one "too few" channels of heavy flak
to take on all the bombers here.
Bring bombers in in pairs more concentrated encourages novice
players to a attack efficiently (for is it reasonable that they
work this out, or are encouraged by a play note??)
Play note Bomber player may want to climb & concentrate for
steep angling; possibly also mention that Axis can bring on
fighters (just) before the bombers attack or after the flak has
done its stuff to rough up the departing bombers.
Overall though it works. Closer to the history & has some
interesting choices for both sides (attack profile for the US,
timing of fighter commitment for the Axis). The initial action
is a bit scripted but matters-if the US win the remaining sweep
squadrons are a handy addition to the force protecting the
bombers initially. I also really like the 10 VP for getting an
unbroken, undisrupted bomber off the L edge-provides a real
incentive for the Axis to keep after the bombers all the way.
I think there is a case for a system rules tweak to allow light
flak to barrage at alt 1/2 vertices above the flak square to
prevent the option of FBs diving to attack at alt 2 & finishing
the move above the barrage (in 0/1)& out of range of light flak
in the target square if attacking from directly above the flak
square from alt 5 or 6. I think I may have posts this in general
discussion rather than rules ut I think it is a (minor) loophole
thatch be closed in v2.2.2.
Summary
Happy at Alpha though definitely needs some more play to get
victory levels right.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 7123--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: Forrest Speck Date: December 10, 2020, 1:41 pm
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S 13
v 1.3
Solo
Axis vets and experten in IAR's that start on board, 1 vet in
109 squadron.
American vets in lead P-38 squadrons.
FLAK- disrupted 1 P-38 bomber before dropping, but FLAK under
performed. Not a damn thing shot down.
BOMBING- lead P-38 vet rolled a net 12, resulting in 13 hits.
24 VP
SSR2- one P-38 bomber exited undisrupted and unbroken.
10 VP
LOSSES- 11 x P-38
16.5 VP
7 x IAR
4 x 109
11 VP
VICTORY- 45- 16.5 for net 28.5 for a massive American victory.
Felt like massive American victory.
Americans benefited from their lead sweep able
to tally the on board IAR's on turn 1. This enabled the sweepers
to tie up the Romanians before they could hit the bombers. Flak
ineffective and a very high die roll netted big VP from bombing.
This is probably an outlier as everything went the American way.
Will run again.
#Post#: 7147--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: Forrest Speck Date: December 14, 2020, 11:31 am
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S 13
v 1.3
Solo
Game 2
Vets in American lead P-38 bombers.
Axis vets in 109's and 1 on board IAR81.
FLAK- affected all 4 bomb runs, shot down 6 P-38's.
BOMBING- 5 hits on factory, netting 6 VP.
SSR2- 2 bombers exited undisrupted and unbroken for 10 VP.
LOSSES- 16 x P-38
24 VP
9 x IAR81
6 x 109
15 VP
VICTORY- 31-24 for +7 for an American victory, felt like slight
American victory.
Flak more effective, bombing rolls were average,
which made for a closer game. P-38 sweepers able to tally IAR's
on board again allowing them to interfere with the Romanians
going monster on the bombers. I want to run again and give the
IAR's vectors only 1 square from where they start to make it
more difficult for the P-38 sweepers to tally them.
#Post#: 7155--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 15, 2020, 12:58 pm
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Roger, that!
#Post#: 7156--------------------------------------------------
Re: S13 Plastering Ploesti
By: Jean Foisy Date: December 15, 2020, 1:02 pm
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Scenario: S13 Plastering Ploesti - Test 01
Version: v1.3
Playtester: Jean Foisy [Solo]
Plans:
- The US plan was to load the two lead Fighter-bombers, flown by
Veterans, with ATGR to suppress the Flak in N0, while the last
two P-38 will Steep bombing the Factory.
- The Escorting and the Sweeping squadrons will protect the
Fighter-bombers from the Romanian interceptors.
- The Axis plan was to engage at all costs the FBs as soon as
possible. The Turn 7 reinforcements will choose good-order
targets in the FB formation.
Report:
- Game lasted 11 turns
- There was no vector height error at set-up excepted an IAR
Squdron on turn 7. The Allied player put it higher.
That was effective since the Rumanaon Squadron was not able to
Tally FB.
- Axis 2 x Veteran and 2 x Experten counters were assigned to
the starting IARs. THe last Veteran was assigned to a 109
Squadron.
- Allied Veteran were assigned the Flak Suppression Squadrons.
- The Flak suppression P-38s Suppressed the Lt Flak and does
Minor Damage to the Hvy Flak and got 2 Strafing hits on the
Factory while leaving the Flak square.
- The Steep bombing P-38s managed to get only 1 hit on the
Factory.
- The Escort didn't allow the on map IARs reaching the FB.
- The Hvy Flak disrupt and broke a Steep Diving P-38.
- On Turn 07 the new interceptors were put on the map. At that
time only one FB was broken.
- The Axis fighters(except the IAR Squadron with the Height
error Vector placement) tallied the FBs and were all tallied
back.
- Seeing the low level placement of the engaged 109s, the last
two FB squadrons decided to climb to take advantage of their
better climbing ability over the IARs.
- The fight was mostly in Level 0. On Turn 8 there was 2
dogfight, in A0 and C0!
Victory:
ALLIED VPs: (12 x IAR and 2 x 109): 14 VPs
ALLIED bombing Results:
- 8 Hits on LtFlak(Crippling Damage): 6 VPs
- 4 Hits on HvyFlak(Minor Damage): 3 VPs
- 3 Hits on the Factory(Minor Damage): 6 VPs
- 1 Bomber exited in Good Order: 10 VPs
ALLIED TOTAL = 39 VPs
AXIS VPs: (10 x P-38) = 15 VPs
AXIS TOTAL = 15 VPs
SCENARIO TOTAL: +24 --> ALLIED victory [Perceived Victory Level:
ALLIED]
Recommendations: I'd say the On map IARs were not very
effective. After another play may show if something is needed on
that subject.
Note: Radio Nets Able(1st FG) and Baker(82nd FG) are not
identified per se.
I had to guess which is which 1st FG and 82nd FG.
I suggest changing to something like that:
Able - 1st Fighter Group - Fighter-bombers
Baker - 82nd Fighter Group - Fighters
Jean
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