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#Post#: 7041--------------------------------------------------
S03 Rat Patrol
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 29, 2020, 2:51 pm
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v1.2
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
This scenario feels like it can be gamed in a lot of ways, yet
none of them managed to break the game in this play. It's more
like somewhat gamey tactical choices.
It seems like a lot depends on what happens turn 1. If the
British manage to get their 4:1 kill ratio in the initial
bounce, they will buzz off into the clouds, never to be seen
again, and there isn't much the Germans can do about it. In this
game, however, the score was 3-3, with one tempest squadron
broken after the first turn, so the Germans dived into the
clouds instead hoping to make it difficult for the allies to get
ahead. This might have been a slight mistake, as it meant the
Bf109s never got the chance to tally anything. So when the
Spitfires arrived, they basically repeated the process. This
bounce went better, and they made sure to dogfight the enemy so
they wouldn't slip away as easily. In the end, the score was
16:4, or exactly a British win.
Comment: I'm not a fan of divisional VP:s, as I feel it is far
too easy for the side needing the smaller score to get lucky and
accumulate an unattainable point advantage. And if you set the
score to avoid this, it will trend heavily towards the other
side. I would prefer the Germans scored double points, and then
a regular score calculation.
I'm not sure what the German options here are, other than
getting lucky. Running away is certainly historical, and I think
if the Focke-Wulfs had ran directly towards the messerschmitts,
they could then all have dived into the clouds before the
spitfires arrive, and made it hard for the British to get their
kills. As it was now, it basically turned into two separate
ambushes.
I'd like to see explicit split limits, even if it is all British
squadrons here.
I think both German wings should be forced to set up in separate
squares, because if the FW190s set up all in the same square,
they can try some gamey stuff trying to bring all combats into
one big combat, thus reducing losses.
I will try it again.
#Post#: 7043--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 30, 2020, 2:31 pm
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v1.2
Player Elias Nordling (solo)
This time, the British bounce went better, causing 5 kills for 1
loss. Time to get out of there, except the Germans managed to
force a dogfight. With hindsight the Brits should have
voluntarily broke and go anyway. Now they ganged up against the
remaining German fighters instead, and the Bf109s were out of
tally range. At the end of turn 2, the score was 8-3, however,
for a German lead.
For turn 3, the Bf109s tallied, and all the germans dived into
the clouds to head for home. The Allies still had some
successful combats despite the clouds, but the Germans got
another lucky hit.
Final score: 14:4. A draw.
Comments: Well, obviously the scenario works after a fashion,
since I've had two games with different outcomes and having used
every trick in the book to get there (except lufberys. I forgot
about them, but this might be a good scenario for those. Oh, and
evasion, forgot about that too!). There is still a certain gamey
feel to some aspects of the scenario, and some things that is
not entirely satisfying. I see two problem areas.
1) Unless the Germans have lost 10 or more aircraft, they win.
This will ensure that the Brits can't win by rolling well in the
first engagement and then scram. If we change the score to
regular VP with Germans scoring double, we can solve this
without special rules.
2) The BF109s set up too far away from the FW190s to be able to
get tallies on turn 2, which mean unless they tally turn 3,
there will just be two separate fights with British bounces. But
if they get to tally turn 2 or 3 and the Germans are ahead on
points, they will just dive into the clouds. I'm thinking of
ways of scripting this without causing additional problems.
Maybe it can just be accepted as is, after all, I've had two
tense games so far. Still, there is very little incentive for
the Bf109s to try to help out the FW190s in any way. Maybe it's
just my playing style.
If we go with regular scores with the Germans getting double
points, I would suggest A draw window of 5-7 points. This would
still make the first game a narrow British win and the second a
draw.
I'd like to hear what Andrew&Gordon has to say about this one.
#Post#: 7048--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Elias Nordling Date: December 1, 2020, 2:31 pm
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v1.2
Elias Nordling (solo)
OK, evasion isn't the solution to the German problem. Not sure
the clouds are either. The Germans probably need lucky hits more
than they need the ability to avoid Allied hits. In this game,
they got few hits and were picked off in the clouds for a final
kill ratio of 17-2, a clear Allied win.
Comment: This is a bit of a puzzle scenario, but I have yet to
crack the solution, which is obviously good. The scores might
need to go up a bit. I think the FW190 setup should also be
fixed, so that the Germans cannot place one of the squadrons out
of reach from the Allies on turn 1.
The one thing that bothers me now is that it is very unlikely
that the BF109s will join in the fight with the FW190s, as they
cannot tally the first 2 turns. But there is something to be
said for keeping the scenario as is as much as possible too.
#Post#: 7049--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 2, 2020, 2:57 am
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I'll have Andrew and Gordon look at this after they've finished
with Plastering Ploesti and Piling On.
I'm marking the pure fighter scenarios as a priority, as they
have always been the most problematic.
#Post#: 7288--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Gordon Christie Date: December 31, 2020, 6:27 am
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Andrew (LW) & I had a go at this last night. I think it may need
a bit of a tweak though we have an adjustment we'll try on
Saturday (see below).
The Tempest bounce went badly (losses 2 each, though LW combat
DR was 12...). The Tempests didn't split to keep the initial
attacks at a decent differential on the CRT- which might or
might not be optimal play. The third (unengaged) 190 squadron
disengaged & ran for home as soon as they tallied on GT2. The
109s tallied early (needed 6, rolled 6...) & RTB'd diving (just)
under the cloud, taking care to split the wing to avoid
formation bonus for tallying. Spitfire play wasn't optimal as I
set up above the cloud for the altitude advantage on the bounce
then & then (improbably) failed both tally rolls after which
the 109s exited stage right unmolested.
RUN 1
4 Tempests lost (2 LW DRs of 12 AtA)
Good early tally (DR 6, needed 6) for 109s on GT1--> alerted &
ran away; Spits needed 4+ for tallies on arrival;
rolled 2,3----> 109s escape
6 190s lost
Too easy for LW to escape though dice favoured them
Hard for Allies to catch up if they lose any number of
aircraft.
We both felt this didn't work & a shrewd LW player will
voluntarily break and/ or RTB swiftly enough that it will be a
challenge for the RAF to catch them & inflict enough damage to
meet the VP threshold (which is relatively high with RAF losses
doubled-the RAF will have to inflict a lot of losses & have some
good fortune to avoid losses themselves). In many ways it simply
becomes an exercise in finding ingenious ways to run away for
the LW (..and they may not need to be too ingenious if the dice
go their way). There is very little incentive for the LW to stay
& fight-which makes for a slightly dull game.
It is potentially a challenge for both sides with the LW having
numbers but not quality & the RAF having all the advantages but
a high bar for victory.
Suggested changes (we'll test on Sat):
Replace SSR 5 with requirement that LW can only exit R edge
109 wing starts with wing leader in E7 facing R. 190s start
stacked N6-O7-P8 (mandating wing leader setup only allows the
Germans to stack down into the cloud & can complicate the
Tempest bounce a bit).
This should enable the initial bounce (which should favour the
RAF though the margin isn't huge-it's interesting that both
Elias & our initial plays haven't given the Tempests a high
margin of success) with the 109s arriving on the scene GT2-3
followed swiftly by the Spits. This seems to fit the narrative
better & forces the LW to fight on the L side of the map with
the home map edge sanctuary some distance away. I'm also
inclined to suggest 1 VP for each unbroken, undisrupted LW
squadron on map at game end as we've done with some other
fighter scenarios-the LW were trying to cover jet airfields
(JG27) or train (JG26) so their objective here wasn't just to
run away; similarly the RAF are there to gain air
superiority-they want kills & to sweep the board (& should have
the quality to do it). I think that sets up the right framework
of incentives for both sides & gives everyone an incentive to
try & use all their fighter versus fighter tactical skills to
achieve the outcome.
I've no doubt this will need VP recalibration but I think it
might capture the narrative better & also gives both sides a
good reason to engage-I think the fun of fighter versus fighter
scenarios lies in trying to maximise the effectiveness of your
fighters-ideally in challenging circumstances for both sides-
and encourages a different approach to defend/ attack bomber
scenarios.
We'll try it on Sat & let you know how it goes.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 7289--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Gordon Christie Date: December 31, 2020, 7:19 am
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Solo run at this since it was sitting open in VASSAL in front of
me & I had half an hour to spare....
Initial bounces
Tempests 6:2
Spits 6:2
Dice about even-confirmation rolls poor for both sides
Overall:
109/ Spit post bounce 9:4; German always seem to manage a high
enough Dr to hit a Spit at low odds...
Final outcome 21:8 (16 if RAF losses doubled) for +13 or +5 No
unbroken/ undisrupted LW squadrons (one 109 squadron climbed
clear disrupted &-just-could not be caught)
Felt like draw?
Structurally though I think this probably works. The initial
Tempest bounce is probably a bit scripted (though it probably
needs to be) but isn't a guaranteed whitewash for the RAF.
Decisions about splitting for the RAF may be slightly harder
than initially appears-I split all the Spits but keeping them
together might have improved the odds on the first pass though
not clear it would have paid off in the longer term... LW
cohesion rolls here were relatively good, RAF perhaps slightly
poorer. Dogfight rolls (important as the Spits have an
advantage) favoured the Germans. one Tempest squadron (non
veteran, the only RAF unit not to split) survive the initial
merge disrupted & had some choices about re reneging (ultimately
didn't but shepherded the high 109 squadron-which emerged
victorious from the initial Spit attack & went on to see off as
second Spit flight-off the map without bouncing a broken Spit
flight trying to escape the map). An unbroken but single
aircraft Spit flight crept tentatively around the closing
stages of the engagement without finding a favourable engagement
opportunity....
I wonder about starting the 109s slightly further right so they
have more of a tally opportunity on GT2 which makes it all a bit
more interesting before the Spits arrive but overall I think
this may be moving in the right direction as it forces a major
engagement with both sides having choices.
Andrew & i will have ago on Saturday evening & see how it goes
FtF
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 7309--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Gordon Christie Date: January 3, 2021, 5:26 am
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Saturday evening's test of the modified setup:
109s set up with leader in F7 facing R
190s setup in N6/O7/P8 (I think stacking upwards needs to be
prescribed for the initial bounce to work)
Tempests setup at least 3 away from 190s (or leader in O11,
either works as far as we can see)
Spits arrive GT3 as before.
Reduce LW greens form 7 to 5 (see below)- we didn't play this
but the post match discussion came down in favour of this:-))
109 leader in F7.
Initial Tempest bounce 5:0
RAF losses 7 (4S 3T)
LW losses 10 109s 18 109s
+14 VP Allied win
Felt like Allied win though expensive; interestingly RAF
achieved the 4:1 kill ratio for victory in the original
scenario.
Probably reasonable LW AtA dice; RAF AtA dice poor at times
This played better. The Tempests had very much the better of the
initial bounce this time but it still leaves the RAF with work
to do to get the win. All 3 190 squadrons broke before any of
the Tempests. One Tempest flight chased 190s into the clouds
whilst the other flight & the undivided (non veteran) squadron
resumed sweep to engage the 109s. The Spits didn't split as the
109s were stacked down into the cloud allowing the Spits to
engage the high 109s as squadrons to maximise effectiveness. One
109 squadron broke on the first pass allowing the Spits to shift
their attention one squadron down the stack of 109s. The bottom
109 squadron tried to escape below the cloud but was eventually
caught by a Tempest flight & a Spitfire squadron & mauled.
The initial Tempest bounce does probably need to be scripted as
at present. We played through the consequences of a successful
190 tally on GT1 followed by running away & it is very difficult
for the Tempests to catch them before they exit & any attacks
are going to be of limited duration minimising the RAF kill
potential & dragging the Tempests right down to the bottom right
hand corner the map & getting them away from the other fight.
Consequently we felt the-somewhat scripted- initial bounce needs
to stay.
The 109s have a chance to sight the Tempests & either engage or
run away on GT2 but its not a given & in any case the Spits can
set up between the 109s & the (distant) R map edge to force them
to fight. Andrew employed the run away bravely LW strategy this
time & it nearly worked. I think there is also potential to
Lufbery for the 109s in particular & try & make more of a fight
of it so the LW player has choices. The RAF have the quality to
sweep the board but they need to work for it.
The LW experience is being a bit of a punchbag & we felt it
probably wouldn't be unreasonable to reduce the Green squadrons
from 7 to 5 to give them little bit more staying power. This
might need the RAF victory threshold shifted down by 2 or so but
preserves the narrative & gives the LW something else to think
about apart from arranging the loss markers artfully on the wing
display....
So, happy with this at Alpha. Probably needs a couple of
calibration runs. I think victory thresholds probably need to go
down by 2 but more data would be helpful.....(yes I've written
papers for publication before-always a good line for the closing
paragraph :-))
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 7310--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 3, 2021, 6:39 am
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I've added the rule about exiting the right map edge, but this
applies only to squadrons returning to base. I have also added a
'no rolls for escape' SSR.
#Post#: 7312--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 3, 2021, 6:49 am
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Elias, can you grab the new scenario book with the changes and
have another run at this? I just need you to validate Gordon and
Andrew's changes before we grind out the balance testing.
#Post#: 7313--------------------------------------------------
Re: S03 Rat Patrol
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 3, 2021, 7:05 am
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Okidoki!
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