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#Post#: 6910--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: ScottKey Date: November 13, 2020, 7:22 pm
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Scenario: S12 Return of the Guards
Nov 13, 2020
Version: 1.4
Playtesters: Scott Key, solitaire
Report:
- Game lasted 10 turns
- There were no height errors at set-up
- GCI changed a vector 1 out of 1 attempts
- Luftwaffe veterans were assigned to the lead Stuka sqn and the
lead Fw-190F3 sqn
- No P-39 squadrons split
- Fw-190 Jabos chose to bomb and strafe from altitude 0
- The Bf-109s and leading P-39s became immediately engaged in a
dogfight and both broke.
- IAR.81 escort was unable to react and so tallied the attackers
of the trailing Ju-87 sqn but broke after 2 turns. The IAR.81s
just had worse cohesion rolls.
- 2 P-39 sqns had pretty much free attacks for a couple,of turns
before the Stukas bombed.
- The Fw-190A4 escort flight failed to tally until turn 9
- The Jabos never took on the fighter role though in retrospect
they should have.
Flak Summary:
- Direct Flak caused 1 hit resulting in 1 straggler in the lead
Ju-87 sqn
- Barrage Flak caused 2 Cohesion checks resulting in no changes
to cohesion
- Barrage Flak caused 2 hits inflicting 1 straggler (with
Disruption) and no losses
Bombing Summary: (per SSR)
- x1 Fw-190F3 sqn was disrupted when bombing. (vs tanks: 10%/ vs
Flak A: 0%). Tanks took 1 damage from Jabo bombs.
- x 2 Fw-190F3 sqns strafed tanks at S0 (25%/50%)= 2 damage
total
- x1 Ju-87 sqns were disrupted when bombing.
- Ju-87s dive bombed Tanks at R0/S0 from altitude 1. (10%/25%)
for 1 damage to R0 (net 2) and 4 damage to S0 (net 6)
-
VVS: x8 Ju-87 downed: -8 vp; x2 Fw-190A4 downed: -2vp= -10 vp
Luftwaffe: x3 P-39 downed: +3 vp; R0 Tanks- Slight Damage:+1 vp;
S0 Tanks- Heavy Damage +3 vp: +7 vp
Victory:
Total: -3
Recommendations:
- At first play i can’t see anything terribly wrong with
this scenario. It was quite enjoyable. Things can change a lot
depending on how the initial tallies come down. I would
definitely set up the Soviet Wing different next time. In this
game the Guards’ Wing Leader was attacked before he could
give orders but in the end it all still went the Soviets way.
- Obviously there was no need or opportunity for the P-39s to
split so I can’t speak to that.
#Post#: 6918--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Jean Foisy Date: November 14, 2020, 1:42 pm
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Scenario: S12 The Return of the Guards - Test 02
Version: v1.4
Playtesters: Jean Foisy [Solo]
Plans:
- Soviet plan was to engage both the Stukas and the 190Fs,
splitting a Squadron to do so.
- German plan was to have the FW bombers use level bombing,
strafe the targets and climb to help protect the Stukas.
Report:
- Game lasted 10 turns
- There was a vector height error at set-up. Vector moved to Q7
- Axis Veteran and Experten counters assigned to the IAR.81C and
Fw190A-4 escorts
- Soviet Veteran and Experten counters were assigned the Wing
Leader's Squadron and another 16 GIAP Squadron.
- The intercepting Airacobras engaged the Stukas early while the
FW bombers drop their load in Level bombing.
- The Axis bombing were appalling. All 4 bombers and
fighter-bombers managed to bomb the tanks.
- I was hoping that 56 bombing points(14 per a/c) will result in
complete annihilation of the targets, to no avail.
Victory:
Soviet enemies shot down: (7 x Ju87, 2 x IAR81, 4 x 109G, 3 x
190A)= 16 VPs
SOVIET TOTAL = 16 VPs
Axis enemies shot down: (8 X P-39Q): 8 VPs
Axis bombing Results:
Tanks in R0 = 3 Hits(Minor Damage): 3 VPs
Tanks in S0 = 8 Hits(Heavy Damage): 5 VPs
AXIS TOTAL = 16 VPs
SCENARIO TOTAL: 0 --> Soviet victory [Perceived Victory Level:
Soviet.]
Recommendations: Keep it as it is.
With "normal" die rolls the bombing results would have been a
lot better. The 1st Stuka rolled a 1,1!!!
Best.
Jean
#Post#: 6927--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 15, 2020, 4:21 am
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So now we have some more data, let's look at the VPs for the
last six plays:
Axis bombing - 15 + 8 + 6 + 14 + 4 + 8 = mean 9.1
Soviet losses - 11 + 3 + 4 + 6 + 3 + 8 = mean 5.8
Axis losses - 12 + 7 + 11 + 14 + 10 + 16 = mean 11.6
This gives a mean of 3.3, which suggests shifting the draw
window down slightly. The major factor here was an increase in
German mean losses by ~2 VP in the last three plays.
Currently, the plays work out as follows:
DaveD 1 - +14 (Axis victory)
DaveD 2 - +4 (Draw)
ScottS 1 - -1 (Soviet Victory)
JeanF 1 - +6 (Draw)
ScottK 1 - -3 (Soviet Victory)
JeanF 2 - +0 (Soviet Victory)
That gives the Soviets a result of 3W, 2D, 1L. Though there are
some clear blowouts on both sides, the Germans have the harder
time, and losses have been due to under-par bombing performance,
which is admittedly very swingy.
I'm inclined to Give the Germans a little edge here, and a
two-point decrease in the draw window, to +2 to +5. This changes
the Soviet results to 3W, 1D, 2L, which looks a lot healthier.
I'm going to make the victory levels change, stick a fork in
this one, and move folks on to Ramrod 5-31.
Can Dave D, Jean F, Scott K, Scott S please each give me one or
more playings of Ramrod 5-31?
I don't know where Pete W and Forrest are right now. They are
also welcome to move on to Ramrod if they believe they are done
with Return of the Guards.
#Post#: 6931--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Okmed Date: November 15, 2020, 7:03 am
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Scenario: S12 The Return of the Guards
Version: v1.4
Player(s): Dave Demko (solo)
Narrative: The Soviet plan was one squadron with Veterans low to
force the fighter-bombers to jettison and two squadrons high to
chew up the Stukas. The low squadron opted not to split
(probably a mistake) when it was tallied by the Bf 109s, which
forced a dogfight and so protected the fighter-bombers. The
other interceptors did well against the Stukas despite a late
reaction by the IAR.81s, but the Romanians gave the bombers some
breathing space by forcing a dogfight and breaking a P-39
squadron. There was a good amount of feint-and-strike for a
solitaire contest. The Soviets did well in air-to-air combat
though Pokryshkin himself was killed. Bombing results were:
Fw 190 level bombing 0%
Fw 190 level bombing 10% = 1 hit
Fw 190 strafes 100% = 2 hits
Fw 190 strafes 50% = 1 hit
Ju 87 dive-bomb 10% = 1 hit
Ju 87 25% = 4 hits
Distribution: 5 on one Tanks unit (Heavy) and 4 on the other
(Minor)
Results:
Axis bombing 5 VP
Axis air-to-air 5 VP
Soviet air-to-air 13 VP
net 10 - 13 = -3, solid Soviet victory.
Felt like some kind of Soviet victory b/c of kills on the Axis
and mediocre bombing results. The fight with the Bf 109s, though
it protected the bombers, hurt the Axis on points.
Recommendations: Still not detecting any serious problems with
this scenario. It seems balanced. The Soviets have some
interesting choices, and the Axis have to choose whether to go
high or low with the fighter-bombers.
#Post#: 6932--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 15, 2020, 7:10 am
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Dave, let's see if your numbers shift the mean by much:
Axis bombing - 15 + 8 + 6 + 14 + 4 + 8 + 5 = mean 8.6
Soviet losses - 11 + 3 + 4 + 6 + 3 + 8 + 5 = mean 5.7
Axis losses - 12 + 7 + 11 + 14 + 10 + 16 + 13 = mean 11.8
So this gives us an adjusted mean of +2.5. This is patyly due to
another sub-8 bombing score. This suggests the draw window be
dropped even further. Perhaps by another 1, down to +1 to +4.
The scores remain the same but at least give the Germans a
little more help.
#Post#: 6933--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Okmed Date: November 15, 2020, 7:27 am
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The victory conditions adjustments seem reasonable. My latest
game felt a closer than the printed victory thresholds suggest.
#Post#: 6956--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Peter_Wagner Date: November 16, 2020, 3:32 pm
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Scenario: S12 The Return of the Guards
Version: v1.5
Player(s): Pete Wagner (solo)
Narrative: Germans assigned Vets to Ju-87s. The Soviets swarmed
the low flying Fw190s early to force them to jettison. One
single combat with the Fw190 escort flight resulted in all 4
190s downed!!!! Things were off to a rough start for Germans. 8
of the Fw190s were downed at the cost of only 2 P-39s. Two
flights of P-39s took off after the Ju87s and managed to harrass
them all the way to the targets. Yet in spite of 4 Ju-87s
downed, they both managed to drop their bombs while only
disrupted and scored high rolling hits on the tanks (a roll of 7
and 10). The 109s sweeps NEVER SAW air combat. They flew just
ahead of the combat the whole time and failed all their early
tally rolls. To try to get them into the fight, they went in for
strafe and managed to score a single hit on the tanks. That
combined with the Ju87s, both tanks experienced heavy damage or
higher . . . but not enough VP to overcome the high air combat
attrition.
Bf 109 strafe = 100% = 1 hit
Bf 109 2nd strafe = 10% = 0 hits
Ju 87 bomb = 25% hits on same tank that Bf 109 hit
Ju 87 bomb = 100% hits for 14 hits on 2nd tank
Distribution: 5 on one Tanks unit (Heavy) and 14 on the other
(Crippling)
Results:
Axis bombing 9 VP
Axis air-to-air 3 VP
Soviet air-to-air 14 VP
net 12 - 14 = -2, Soviet victory.
Felt like a Soviet Overwhelming victory in the skies . . .
Overwhelming German victory on the ground. Feels like it should
be a draw. Perhaps we should award bonus VP for at least heavy
damage on both tanks (say a bonus 5 VP or something similar to
the bonus objective in Kursk campaign scenarios???
Recommendations: See above.
#Post#: 6960--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Peter_Wagner Date: November 17, 2020, 8:40 am
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Scenario: S12 The Return of the Guards
Version: v1.5
Player(s): Pete Wagner (solo 2nd play)
Narrative: Germans assigned Vets to 109s and IARs. This one had
by comparison VERY FEW casualties. Axis did much better job of
tallying and thwarting P-39s early and essentially successfully
keeping them from high advantage attacks on Stukas. The Fw-190s
strafers of course got waylaid early and had the greatest
casualties. One key fight with Stukas in clouds caused a
disruption and flak barrage caused it to break while dropping
its bombs. Axis did much better overall in the air but without
veteran stukas, their bombing was mediocre and only inflicted
heavy damage on one tank.
Ju 87 bomb [broken] = 10% hits on lead tank
Ju 87 bomb [good order] = 50% hits for 7 hits on lead tank
Distribution: 8 hits on lead Tanks unit (Heavy)
Results:
Axis bombing 3 VP
Axis air-to-air 2 VP
Soviet air-to-air 5 VP
net 5 - 5 = 0, Soviet victory.
Felt like this should have been a draw. I still feel like there
should be a bonus objective relating to damaging both tanks to
give Germans a chance to get more VP from bombing. Those tanks
don't score enough VP to overcome the Soviet air kill advantage.
Recommendations: See above.
#Post#: 6962--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Forrest Speck Date: November 18, 2020, 12:51 pm
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S12
v 1.5
vets in FW190F's (should have been in Ju87's)
experte in FW190A and 109's
vets and experten in lead P39's
no height error
BOMBING-5 vp (1 hit on FLAK; 4 hits on 1 tank, 1 hit on other
tank). Bombing rolls were average. One Ju 87 bombed broken, and
one FW190F bombed disrupted). One strafing pass missed.
FLAK- really effective, shot down 3 x FW190 and 1 x Ju87.
LOSSES- 7 x P-39
7 VP
6 x FW 190-F (3 via FLAK)
1 x FW 190-A
3 x Ju87 (1 from FLAK)
10 VP
VICTORY- 12-10 for +2 for a draw (felt like draw, Germans
bombing wasn't good and Soviets didn't inflict enough losses,
the FLAK got them close to a draw.
Better distribution on my part with German vets would help
Germans. Point spread looks good. I will run again and put the
vets in the Stukas.
#Post#: 6964--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 18, 2020, 1:16 pm
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Cool, guys. I shall run your numbers and see if they shift the
victory thresholds at all.
Can i ask Pete and Forrest to move onto S29 Kursk Counterattack?
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