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#Post#: 6761--------------------------------------------------
S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 18, 2020, 6:30 am
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Here's Gordon's notes on the refactored scenario:
On to Return of the Guards:
Run 1 with Andrew as the VVS
LW 11 bombers 5 fighters
VVS 5 fighters No hits on ground targets
VP
VVS +16
LW +5 Crushing VVS win.
As it stands I don't think this really works. The broken cloud
segments it into two separate actions above and below the cloud.
The VVS should probably start high, monster the high LW
formation then vector (GCI is 4) their remaining fighters down
to take care of the later arriving Ju 87Gs. The Stuka flights
don't have enough escorts to avoid disaster & are very
vulnerable to the Soviet fighters. Both Stuka flights were
swiftly broken here & RTB'd to avoid further losses. A lucky
tally got the Soviets down slightly earlier than might otherwise
have occurred but the low Ju87Gs arrive sufficiently later that
there is almost certainly going to be time for GCI to revector
the Soviet fighters down to hit the Ju87Gs & their escorts. In
this play the Soviets killed 7 of the 9 Ju87Gs.
The ground targets are fairly tough & have low VP values so to
offset the vulnerability of the inadequately escorted Stukas the
Germans need to score AtG & I can't see that happening here. I
doubt the high Stuka flights will do much as they are likely to
be broken quickly while the panzerjager need a couple of good
strafing runs to get 5 hits on the tanks for only 3VP. At the
very best they are going to get 6 VP with 2 100% hits runs but
that is statistically unlikely.
For the second run we increased the high Stukas to squadrons
rather than flights:
LW 6 Stukas, 1 Panzerjager 2 fighters
VVS No losses 6 hits on tanks +3
VVS +9
LW +3
Nett -6
Soviet win, certainly felt like that
Again, while the was better the high Stukas got monstered though
it took the VVS a bit more time and cohesion to deal with the
high Stupas-which attacked without a great deal of effect. the
Panzerjager saved the day AtG but the AtA element was, again a
Soviet blowout, aided by somewhat better than average dice. The
compartmentalisation again is problem. The Soviets can choose
how much of the German force to take on & arguably the Soviet
killer strategy is just to monster the high LW force, if
necessary chasing down broken squadrons, as the low ground
attackers will never score enough VP to compensate & this allows
the VVS to ignore 40% of the LW fighters which are stuck below
the cloud &, barring some really lucky tallies, will just sail
on past.
At this point we went for a bit of rethink. A bit of Googling on
these actions suggested some interesting options. Fliegrkorps i
had a significant Fw190 schlachtflieger component . The
Rumanians were present & there were plenty of Stukas....
We did a major rejig:
Low LW changes to:
2 Fw190F squadrons in J1, K; escort Fw190 flight in K3. The
190Fs are deliberately positioned to allow steep angle, letdown
or glide bombing attacks as options. The low fighter bombers
will attack first so flak suppression for the stupas is an
option. By moving the low group well R the LW attack is better
synchronised & the VVS don't have the option of dealing with the
2 mgrouops separately & sequentially.
High group: Both Stukas as squadrons not flights, sweep
unchanged but squadron of Rumanian IAR81s as escorts rather
than the 109Gs (just for fun as it's always good to see more
Rumanians and the 109G-6 gets plenty of exposure; also fits the
history). High group setup moves to sweep 109s in K8, Stukas
G5,H5. Soviet setup unchanged. This offers some low odds GT1
tally opportunities whether the Soviets set up low (against the
FBs) or high & gets the action going faster.
Other changes: Cloud from broken to wispy (still has an effect
but compartmentalises things less tightly); troops removed &
second tank as target in S0. We also dropped the Axis green
marker & added a second veteran & experte (in some ways this
seems to have been the last LW hurrah in the East, at least
until the Oder counterattacks in Jan-Feb 45 & the jagdgruppen in
FK1 seem to have been well supplied with experten so it felt
about right; also I wonder if the Soviets are a little
overpowered with 2/3rds veterans & this seemed to strike a good
balance)
We felt this worked better.
LW 3 Stukas 7 fighters lost 28 hits on flak (DR11,12 (!)-with
steep angling fighter bombers) +6 VP 8 hits on tanks +3 VP
VVS 9 fighters
VVS +10
LW +18
Nett +8 to LW
LW win (just) feels fair; high losses but decent results on
ground targets.
This felt more interesting for both sides. Some choices for the
Germans about attack tactics for the FBs (& weapon loads-ATGR
are an option). The attacks are closer together so the Soviets
have to concentrate on one or the other (or split). Both attack
groups are powerful enough to do real damage & the Soviets can
probably neutralise one, but probably not both-splitting might
pay off handsomely, or fail badly. There is a bit of a choice
about going for the Stukas (better escorted but vulnerable
targets) or the FBs (haven't tried this yet- I suspect Andrew
will try that next time out). The ground target VPs need to be
earned, and high scores AtG are unlikely . The 190Fs achieved
ludicrous overkill on the flak (28 hits but Drs of 11 then 12
so...) & 5 hits on the tanks with the Stukas achieving a
solitary hit (though their bombing rolls were poor).
This setup unfortunately loses us the Jui87Gs. If we need to
keep them in we could try either moving the FBs & their, escort
up to start high with the Ju87Gs low with the Rumanians
escorting or have the Ju87Gs 3 or so squares behind the FBs with
the sweep out front, all at low level-which is optimal for the
P-39Qs.
I like the Stuka/ FB setup. It offers some very direct compare &
contrast effects about the early & late war approaches to ground
attack. One of the bits of the meta narrative that didn't quite
come out in the original Supremacy box I felt was the rise of
the fighter bomber. As time has gone by i've begun to realise
that there is a lot of flexibility in FBs, particularly with the
steep angle & glide bombing profile options &, perhaps to a
lesser extent, ATGRs. I think more scenarios that showcase this
strengthen the package. I also wonder whether a brief paragraph
about FBs & their options in the designers notes or as a sidebar
is worthwhile. I may just be a bit dim but it has taken (very)
many playings for me to understand the options for FBs &, while
all the tools are in the box as the rules currently stand, they
perhaps aren't quite as obvious as they could be & I think it
loses an aspect of the wider narrative that could easily be
brought more into the foreground.
We'll keep tinkering but if you have a strong view about the
Ju87Gs please let us know.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 6762--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 18, 2020, 8:09 am
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I have just updated the Supremacy scenarios and in particular
updated this one with Andrew and Gordon's changes. Can I ask A&G
to check this out and even give it another run before I bring
anyone else in?
#Post#: 6782--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Gordon Christie Date: October 23, 2020, 9:53 am
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Run 2 as currently written:
LW 4 Stukas, 8 Fw190F 1 fighter
VVS 6 fighters
Tanks hit for 16 (+9VP) 6 hits (+3 VP)
VVS +13
LW +18
Draw FBs heavy losses; targets struck hard by Stukas. Seems
fair outcome
Dice wild initially with VVS rolling 12,11 for 6 Fw 190F kills
but LW bombing/ strafing very good.
This time Andrew took the Airacobras down after the 190Fs.
Pokryshin got in a devastating first pass killing 4 of the tough
190s (DR 12, +2 for experte/ bounce 6 hits) but after the 190s
jettisioned their bombs & fought losses were even (4:4). good
demonstration that FBs can look after themselves though by the
end they were ammo depleted & out of ordnance so faded to
contribute against the ground targets.
The Axis escorts were unlucky with tally rolls (& badly handled
I think...) allowing a flight of P-39s to kill 4 Stukas over 3
turns & escape untroubled by either Axis fighter squadron
cruising along within 2 squares....rarely have so many 1s been
rolled for tally:-((
Despite this the Stukas bombed well for 14 & 4 hits on the 2
tanks at which point the dozy 190 escort (unengaged to this
point but now a sweep after 1 successful tally) woke up, swept
down & scored 2 hits on both tanks for no loss in an impressive
strafing pass netting 4.5VP by taking both tanks over damage
thresholds (fatal & heavy).
In the end a draw after much drama with excellent Soviet AtA
performance-and dismal German tallying-offset by blinding ground
attack by the Stukas & the 190 escort, which felt fair.
Great fun. Interesting choices for both sides, few easy
decisions & good comparison between the FBs & the (obsolete &
vulnerable) Stukas. P-39Qs competitive at low level in early
1944 as well which is another interesting piece of the meta
narrative.
VP thresholds are (probably) about right but more test to
validate etc:-))
I think SSR 2 can go (I think it is a legacy of the then current
bombing rules when Supremacy 1st Ed came out).
Cheers
Gordon
We'd happily play this again but we're happy at Alpha.
#Post#: 6786--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 24, 2020, 5:24 am
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Okay. I'm going to ask Elias to look at this one now, without
SSR 2. Could you guys take a look at Ramrod and tell me if it
needs any work? If not, that's cool. But the title came up and
it would be good to check.
#Post#: 6794--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Elias Nordling Date: October 25, 2020, 2:39 pm
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v1.2 (minus sp rule 2)
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
So the Axis have two forces that have trouble supporting each
other, and the Soviets should probably concentrate on one of
them. The Stukas climbed out of the P39 low band, but the sweep
and escort were unable to cope with all the P39s. At first
though, the Soviets lost more than they gave in air combat.
Meanwhile, the FW190s bombed undisturbed but both rolled 4. A
roll of 7 would have gained the Axis 8 more hits, but the
bombing isn't as swingy as it looks as this would probably just
have generated 3 more VP.
The FW190s were more successful at strafing, and the P39s
eventually started to score big on the stukas. One was broken
and one disrupted when bombing. The flak was also lethal to the
Stukas. the Soviets had really good cohesion rolls, 3 of 5
maneuver elements never broke, they just broke off the fight
once the Stukas had bombed and the strafing FW190s were
climbing.
Score:
Axis: Bombing 3 pts (5 hits), 5 P39: 8
Soviet: 11 Stukas, 3 IAR81, 2 FW190A: 16
TOTAL: -8
Massive Soviet win
Comment: Obviously, if this is representative, the score needs
to be shifted, but we'll see about that. Picking the top target
obviously worked for the Soviets this time round. Picking the
lower target can probably work well too. You get away from the
sweep, the Soviets are in their high performance band, and the
FW190s might decide to jettison. I'm a little concerned that
this strategy won't work if the FW190s simply refuse to jettison
their bombs, so I'm going to try this next. If that's the case,
it is easy enough to fix by simply adding a special rule that
Axis FB:s that are attacked have to jettison, but first let's
see if it's needed.
As the axis, you should probably climb for steep angle bombing
with the FW190s, as that also brings your forces closer
together.
#Post#: 6797--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Elias Nordling Date: October 26, 2020, 2:31 pm
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v1.2 (minus sp rule 2)
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
This time I went for the Fighter-Bombers as the Soviets, and the
Axis decided to ignore the attackers and just press on. This
felt like a distinctively worse option for the Soviets. The Axis
were able to bring down all their fighters into the fight
gaining numerical superiority, and the Soviets only got one turn
of combat before the fighter bombers bombed. they DID negate the
ability for the FW:s to strafe.
Bombing rolls were slightly below average, and the soviets were
surprisingly able to give more than they got in air combat:
Score:
Axis: Bombing: 8 + 6 P39: 14
Soviets: 1 Bf109G, 1 Fw190A, 6 FW190F, 1IAR81: 9
TOTAL: 6
DRAW
Felt like axis win
Comments: As mentioned, I think with a special rule that the
fighter bombers have to jettison if attacked, this remains a
viable option for the Soviets. I think the scoring intervals
might have to go down a bit. But other than that, the scenario
works fine and offers some interesting decisions and
maneuvering. With the suggested changes, I think it is done
alpha.
#Post#: 6798--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: October 26, 2020, 3:53 pm
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Coolio. I'll get the changes in shortly and move others onto
testing it soon!
#Post#: 6845--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Okmed Date: November 3, 2020, 7:37 am
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Scenario: S12 The Return of the Guards
Version: v1.2
Player(s): Dave Demko (solo)
Narrative: The Soviet wing ganged up against the fighter-bombers
first, breaking one Fw 190F squadron and their escorts. But both
bombed (steep-angle) and achieved hits. No one had ammo
available for strafing. The Bf 109s performed well, with an
early tally and lots of kills. The Soviets climbed and would
have been in time to engage the Stukas except that the Bf 109s
broke one P-39 squadron and a successful escort reaction by the
IAR.81Cs kept the Stukas free to make their bomb run. Flak,
using barrage to maximize the number of dice rolls against all
bombers, was ineffective. Bombing results, all against tanks,
were:
Broken Fw 190F 25% = 4 hits
Fw 190F 50% = 7 hits, Crippling damage
Ju 87D1 50% = 7 hits
Ju 87D1 100% = 14 hits, Fatal damage
Results:
Axis VPs for bombing = 15
Axis VPs for fighter kills = 11
Soviet VPs for kills = 12
net 14, whopping Axis victory
Given those bombing results, it feels like a whopping Axis
victory.
Recommendations: The scenario seems OK despite the lopsided
result. The Soviet performance was average, with one blown easy
tally that cost them possibly 6 VPs. Meanwhile the Axis
performed very well on bombing and air-to-air combat. At this
point, I'd say try the low-intercept plan again and see what
happens. Also, try the Soviet plan that splits the wing and
sends one Veteran squadron to intercept the Stukas immediately.
The two sides converge quickly, and I think that's OK. The
clouds did not make any difference in this playthrough and may
not be important in general.
#Post#: 6846--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: Elias Nordling Date: November 3, 2020, 8:37 am
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I thought there would be a special rule that the FBs had to
jettison their bombs if attacked?
#Post#: 6847--------------------------------------------------
Re: S12 Return of the Guards
By: pilotofficerprune Date: November 3, 2020, 8:51 am
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Dave was playing v1.2 not the current v1.4. Dave, can you please
try to play the latest version?
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