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#Post#: 650--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Elias Nordling Date: December 2, 2018, 2:11 pm
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Did you remember that the Komets would get high speed effects
when attacking at full throttle? When we discussed this, there
is much reason to attack in a diving glide with them as was
historical.
#Post#: 662--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Rick McKown Date: December 3, 2018, 10:36 pm
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Re Me-163's in my on-going game with John, with the first 163 he
went up to Level 19, burning off all his fuel, then came down
into the first B-17 group in an unpowered glide so as NOT to
suffer the high speed penalty. Finishing up that game tonight
and switching sides tomorrow night (we lost last week when he
got called in to work due to freezing rain).
Rick
#Post#: 664--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Rick McKown Date: December 4, 2018, 1:51 am
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Scenario: E10 Rocket Men
Version: v0.6
Playtesters: Rick McKown (US) vs John Lawton [Kyloth] (German)
Report: German player held back his FW-190s in high, spread-out
positions to (1) successfully avoid being tallied early by US
Lead Sweep and (2) coordinate timing of the FWs' attacks with
the first Me-163 flight, all four diving on Turn 5 to
simultaneously hit the four lead bomber squadrons in Column R
after the bombers passed through the Flak (two bomber squadrons
were disrupted by Flak, one of which was in the lead four). By
Turn 5 the US Lead Sweep squadrons had tallied the Me-163, the
FW-190D and one FW-190A, but missed the only tally roll on the
other FW-190-A. The P-51 squadrons had both split into flights,
so the three flights with tallies all jumped into the scrum (the
fourth flight circled), and in those three combats the P-51s
took down three FW-190s and both of the Me-163s for the loss of
two US fighters and one bomber, but the FW-190 squadrons in
these fights both survived their cohesion rolls while all three
US flights broke and were out of the fight. The FW-190A
squadron that did not have a P-51 flight to deal with had a
field day - fortuitously it was the one that hit the disrupted
bomber squadron and also got to claim the bounce, plus having an
Experte, and it rolled very high both on the ACT and for losses
- and it took out five B-17s and broke that bomber squadron! In
Turn 6 the last Lead Sweep flight belatedly intervened to defend
the broken bomber squadron - traded one loss each with the
FW-190A, while the bombers took no more losses that turn, but it
was the P-51 flight which broke, leaving the six lead bomber
squadrons totally unprotected. By the end of Turn 8, when the
last of the FW-190s broke, the three bomber squadrons they had
been attacking had suffered seven more losses (for a total of
13), although only one additional bomber squadron was disrupted.
The action back in the rear section was much less dramatic -
the P-51s tallied both Me-109s and the Me-262, so when one
Me-109 and the Me-262 went after the bombers there was a P-51
flight there to protect them. The Me-262 took down one B-17 and
that bomber squadron disrupted, but the Me-109s achieved nothing
and both the attacking squadrons (as well as one defending
flight) broke and ran. The other Me-109 and the second Me-163
waited until the rear bombers had passed through the Flak
(again, the Flak disrupted two squadrons), but the three P-51
flights remaining intervened and the Germans made no further
bomber kills while losing two Me-109s and both Me-163s before
the Me-109s broke and ran, at a cost of two P-51s (and a broken
flight).
Victory:
US: 15.5 VP for kills + 52 VP for exited bombers = 67.5
Germans: 5 VP for fighter kills + 42 VP for bomber kills = 47
net: 20.5, an extremely lop-sided German victory
Recommendations: John's tactics against the lead group worked
very well, forcing me to spread my Lead Sweep forces into four
flights to cover four attacks - and all four of those flights
broke in their first combat. Missing that one tally roll
probably cost the US 23 VPs (-2 VP for the disrupted squadron
going down to broken seven, -21 VP for the seven bombers in that
squadron shot down), but even without those VP it would still
have been a decided German win. The flak itself cost the US 12
VP (or 14 if you figure the squadron that broke in Turn 5 would
not have broken that turn except that it had been disrupted by
flak). The Me-163s were not effective when faced with a
defending fighter - in this game they inflicted no damage on
anyone and were all four shot down for their pains. The Me-262
inflicted some hurt, trading one loss for one bomber plus a
bomber squadron disrupted (so 6 VP in exchange for the 1.5 VP of
the shot-down jet). Not sure I'd want to change anything,
except maybe the VP ranges for the VC! We're going to have
another go, hopefully tomorrow night, with me as the Germans,
and I'm thinking I might concentrate even more force against
that lead group - both Me-163s and even bring up the the Me-262
under the clouds; certainly if the Germans can attack bombers
with no fighters to interfere they can inflict some serious
losses.
Ciao,
Rick
#Post#: 666--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 4, 2018, 2:53 am
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Try playing with the latest v0.7 version. I moved the draw
window down on this version from the previous one. Your next
playthrough will be an interesting test of the numbers, as your
last test moved the average even lower. Another bit of data will
really help us calibrate
#Post#: 668--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Elias Nordling Date: December 4, 2018, 3:00 am
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I think you did right in splitting the escorts, and were
extremely unlucky that they all broke at first combat.
#Post#: 670--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Rick McKown Date: December 4, 2018, 10:54 am
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Hi Lee, will do.
Hi Elias, in this case I felt it was essential to counter four
incoming hostiles, but still feel a bit ambivalent about
splitting squadrons. In our experience their inability to
survive more than one cohesion check failure has all too often
resulted in a flight disappearing after only one combat :-(
Overall, my failure to get that one tally, leaving a disrupted
bomber squadron to deal with a German fighter without friendly
fighter support, was very costly.
Rick
#Post#: 671--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Elias Nordling Date: December 4, 2018, 1:51 pm
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I almost always split. Even if they break after one turn you get
one more to go. And if it is a veteran squadron attacking, it
will only break on 4 or less the first roll unless it has taken
losses.
#Post#: 686--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Rick McKown Date: December 8, 2018, 12:57 pm
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Scenario: E10 Rocket Men
Version: v0.7
Playtesters: Rick McKown (German) vs John Lawton [Kyloth] (US)
Report: As with our previous game, the German player (c'est moi
this time) followed the same pattern of holding back my FW-190s
in high (FW-190Ds at Level 18, FW-190As at Level 15), spread-out
positions to avoid being tallied early by US Lead Sweep, gain
the Flak DRM for tallying the bombers, and coordinate my FWs'
attacks with the first Me-163 flight. All four tallied their
targets on Turn 4 and dove to hit the four lead bomber squadrons
in Column R after the bombers passed through the Flak (but this
time none of the bomber squadrons were disrupted by the Flak!).
On Turn 4 one US P-51 squadron tallied the FW-190D, but missed
the other (Wing Leader) missed its tally roll on an FW-190A.
The US player opted not to split his P-51 squadron, so the one
squadron with a tally jumped into the scrum with the FW-190D
(while the other P-51 squadron, the one with the Wing Leader,
circled); in that combat the US took down one FW-190D but lost
one B-17 and one P-51, with the P-51 squadron disrupting (a
flight would have broken, of course) and then failing to hold
the FW-190D in a dogfight. In the other three combats, with no
fighters to deal with, the Me-163s and FW-190As all got the
bounce and took out a total of seven bombers with no German
loss, but then both FW-190A squadrons and the Me-163 flight all
failed their cohesion rolls while only one bomber squadron
disrupted, sending the Me-163s home. On Turn 5 the Lead Sweep
Wing Leader/Experte belatedly intervened to tally one of the
FW-190A squadrons, then split his squadron and ordered the
second flight to tally the other FW-190A squadron, so all three
threatened bomber squadrons were protected in the ensuing combat
and no more bombers were lost; by the end of Turn 5, the three
FW-190 squadrons had lost eight more aircraft (the P-51 flight
with the Wing Leader/Experte, with a +4 DRM on the ACT and a +4
drm for Losses, shot down four FW-190As in one combat) and had
all broken, while the P-51s suffered only one more loss, but the
squadron in action against the FW-190Ds and the flight without
the Wing Leader both failed their cohesion rolls and broke.
Also on Turn 5 the Me-262 flight, which had been racing up
through the clouds to join the fight up front, tallied one of
the tailing bombers in the lead group and started to climb into
attack position, so on Turn 6 the one remaining Lead Sweep
flight (the one with the deadly Wing Leader/Experte) tallied the
Me-262 and intercepted the jets' approach; the Me-262 flight
lost one aircraft, failed his cohesion check and broke, while
the P-51 flight took no losses but also broke. On Turn 7 the
second Me-163 flight, having tallied the most damaged lead
bomber squadron, burned his last fuel to make a high speed pass,
but achieved nothing (no loss or cohesion failure for either
side); being required to dive thereafter the Me-163s could not
re-engage, so that put an end to all combat in the lead group.
The action back in the rear section was non-existent - the
Me-109s went high, waiting for the Flak do disrupt some bomber
squadrons, but all the bombers passed through with nothing worse
than a couple stragglers, while the Trailing Sweep tallied the
Me-109s and kept between the German fighters and the bombers.
With no good opportunities to pounce on the bombers without the
P-51s intervening, which would likely have cost me (the Germans)
more VP than I could ever hope to earn, and with the Americans
only 1.5 VP away from a Win, I accepted a Draw and the Me-109s
headed home.
Victory:
US: 10.5 VP for kills + 69 VP for exited bombers = 79.5
Germans: 2 VP for fighter kills + 24 VP for bomber kills = 26
Net: 53.5, a Draw
Recommendations: Using John's tactics against the lead bomber
group once again worked quite well on the initial attack, but in
retrospect I probably should have dived away rather than attempt
a second, contested, combat. The Flak achieved nothing in this
game (if I had rolled the statistically expected results I
should have seen two bomber squadrons disrupted, reducing the US
VP total by six and producing a German victory). The Me-262s
were not effective when faced with a defending fighter - in this
game they inflicted no damage on anyone. Overall the scenario
seems pretty balanced now (may still be slightly pro-German but
not drastically so).
Ciao,
Rick
#Post#: 693--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: pilotofficerprune Date: December 9, 2018, 3:41 am
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That's great, Rick. Are you happy to sign off on this scenario?
#Post#: 697--------------------------------------------------
Re: E10 Rocket Men
By: Gordon Christie Date: December 9, 2018, 12:17 pm
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2 runs at this from Andrew (USAAF) & me (LW).
Overall it's an interesting scenario. Good variety of late war
aircraft & the bonkers rocket fighters make their appearance.
Komet rules seem clear & work well though quite a lot of thought
is needed to get the attack profile right (again not
unreasonable). First time out the lead Komet flight shot to the
top of the climb at altitude 16, was unable to see anything in
the tally phase (green , everyone behind & below) & was handily
eliminated whilst stooging about in the glide at their vector by
a passing Mustang squadron which barely broke sweat in the
process....
A further highlight was fighting Mustangs at high speed
following which the solitary remaining live Me163 got trapped in
a dogfight stuck in the glide after expending all of its fuel.
To no one's great surprise the dogfight was short...
Otherwise there are some interesting choices for both sides
about splitting (for the US) and where to concentrate effort for
the Germans. I've tried a variety fo approaches so far but can't
identify any killer strategy for the LW.
First run saw the Mustangs tied up by the high 190 D-9s &
afflicted by myopia against the trailing 109s which made hay
with the bombers.
10 bombers and 3 P-51s were lost with 2 squadrons broken against
14 LW fighters
US scored 60 (exit) + 14 (kills) for +74
LW scored 33 for kills
Final result 41 for a solid LW win (which felt right)
Second time out the US did better, probably due to well timed
tally rolls & some myopia on the German side the climbing Me
262s were unable to see anything & were handily monstered by the
Mustangs (3 kills) whilst 13 more single engined fighters died
(including all 4 Komets)
Only 1 bomber was broken.
Final score
US 66 exit + 19 (kills) for +85
LW 3 B-17 7 P-51s for +16
Nett +69 for a solid US win (which it felt like)
Run 3 in progress & will complete tonight.
Overall though pretty happy as it stands. Plenty of choices &
interesting late war aircraft. Good illustration of the Komet as
a useless firework....
Cheers
Gordon
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