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DIR Return to: Christian Theology
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#Post#: 15950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 8, 2020, 10:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Blade I am going to assume here that you find no value in know
anything about the theology of Welsey?
#Post#: 16067--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 11, 2020, 5:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I am just going to say this upfront I am not a pigeon-holed
Christian that hate or accuse those from a different branch of
thinking to be committing heresy. That is not my right, only
God gets to sit in judgement of others actions and beliefs. I
find certain historical figures that were and are still
influencing the direction of Christianity. John Wesley is one
of those I find fascinating. If he saw what had become of his
thinking in the form of systematic theology, Wesleyan theology
and the Methodists Churchs that claim his teachings as their
found dogma, he would be shock and ashamed in large parts of it.
I do not believe in reading about him that he had the intention
for his version of learning to study and understanding the Bible
to be a theology. As I understand him, he was writing both to a
small elite group of theologians and trying to provide a way for
the minimally educated churchgoers to be able to understand and
appreciate the bible and learn both the words and the meaning.
Let us all be honest. Luther, Calvin, Arminius and even Wesley
were trying to find ways to give the common person to
understand. Most of those that attended were barely literate if
at all. The learned by memorizing text and scripture, but most
did not understand. They chose to believe what the Priest or
clergy told them it meant. All these theologians wanted that
changed. No one way was wrong. The systematic way was a
direction that felt a system would work better than the others.
In my opinion, it was all that was meant in the way it was done.
The problem with everything, and what we all face now, is that
the original intentions is lost throughout time and sides are
taken. That is what I have encountered in just presenting a
look at an important figure in the historical development of
Christianity. Look how far we have strayed from what Christ was
trying to do. He just wanted to reform the Jewish belief and
way of doing business. He wanted to change his religion, not be
founder of another one. He failed in his mission to reform but
succeeded in finding another based on his teachings. Instead
of celebrating this, we all tend to fight over how to celebrate
his teachings, each staking out our own beliefs as a territory
and fighting against anything that is not the same. Why can't
we all just celebrate his coming, passing, and resurrection and
not get tied down to a singular way to see it? Just a question
that vexes me.
So when I am talking and researching Wesley, I am not trying to
insult anyone or to tell you your belief is wrong. I am
celebrating just another way people have found to praise God and
Jesus. Thats is all that is important.
Okay, Soap box is done.
#Post#: 16068--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: August 11, 2020, 9:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg15950#msg15950 date=1596944822]
Blade I am going to assume here that you find no value in know
anything about the theology of Welsey?
[/quote]
The value of his theology is knowing what it was. Much like the
Catholic Theology. One needs to know in order to counter their
arguments that their theology is the only way to get to Heaven.
Blade
#Post#: 16069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 11, 2020, 9:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
But who gets to decide whats the right way to get to heaven? I
know I don't. I know none of the clergy I know do. The only
that knows if God and last I knew he expressed it through Jesus
and we have been feeding over it since.
I do not disagree knowing is important, but I no more think the
Wesleyan, Catholics or ANY others are wrong in the beliefs
anymore than I think I am right. This is the issue that has
fracture what should be unifed and because humans are involved
it never will be.
Look at just you and me Blade. We have been atdifferent ends on
a few discussions, we still chat and still respect, but we are
at odds on the path of belief. There are many who would be spew
hate over our conversations.
But back to your point, I agree - knowing is important to
understanding.
#Post#: 16070--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: August 11, 2020, 10:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg16067#msg16067 date=1597186679]
I am just going to say this upfront I am not a pigeon-holed
Christian that hate or accuse those from a different branch of
thinking to be committing heresy. That is not my right, only
God gets to sit in judgement of others actions and beliefs. I
find certain historical figures that were and are still
influencing the direction of Christianity. John Wesley is one
of those I find fascinating. If he saw what had become of his
thinking in the form of systematic theology, Wesleyan theology
and the Methodists Churchs that claim his teachings as their
found dogma, he would be shock and ashamed in large parts of it.
I do not believe in reading about him that he had the intention
for his version of learning to study and understanding the Bible
to be a theology. As I understand him, he was writing both to a
small elite group of theologians and trying to provide a way for
the minimally educated churchgoers to be able to understand and
appreciate the bible and learn both the words and the meaning.
Let us all be honest. Luther, Calvin, Arminius and even Wesley
were trying to find ways to give the common person to
understand. Most of those that attended were barely literate if
at all. The learned by memorizing text and scripture, but most
did not understand. They chose to believe what the Priest or
clergy told them it meant. All these theologians wanted that
changed. No one way was wrong. The systematic way was a
direction that felt a system would work better than the others.
In my opinion, it was all that was meant in the way it was done.
The problem with everything, and what we all face now, is that
the original intentions is lost throughout time and sides are
taken. That is what I have encountered in just presenting a
look at an important figure in the historical development of
Christianity. Look how far we have strayed from what Christ was
trying to do. He just wanted to reform the Jewish belief and
way of doing business. He wanted to change his religion, not be
founder of another one. He failed in his mission to reform but
succeeded in finding another based on his teachings. Instead
of celebrating this, we all tend to fight over how to celebrate
his teachings, each staking out our own beliefs as a territory
and fighting against anything that is not the same. Why can't
we all just celebrate his coming, passing, and resurrection and
not get tied down to a singular way to see it? Just a question
that vexes me.
So when I am talking and researching Wesley, I am not trying to
insult anyone or to tell you your belief is wrong. I am
celebrating just another way people have found to praise God and
Jesus. Thats is all that is important.
Okay, Soap box is done.
[/quote]
good evening Mark:
You said:"Why can't we all just celebrate his coming, passing,
and resurrection and not get tied down to a singular way to see
it? "
"we all" is the key word here....Until then!!
we are charged by GOD to spread His WORD....and to point out the
false teachers/preachers of His Gospel according to scripture.
surely you are in tune to that?
Blessings,
Blade
#Post#: 16071--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 11, 2020, 11:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree with false prophets, fraud preaching for profits and
teachers/preachers that do not teach as the Bible asks us to
needed pointed out.
But, my question who decides what makes a teaching false?
There are Calvinist I know that state that Catholics are all
heretics. Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but
because the version of the bibles is different. Those are the
things that make me crazy. What gave that single person the
right to spew hate because of their singular viewpoint. I know
a believer in Coptic Christianity that is more holy and
spiritual in his beliefs and teaching than two of my theology
instructors. He teaches love, understanding, and guidance to
finding a belief that is similar to what I think we both
believe.
So, done with my babble and done wearing out soapboxes. lol
#Post#: 16630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 24, 2020, 11:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The more I read and the more I study his reading the more
interesting I find John Wesley. Still do not think I can ever
agree with his teachings, theory, and ideas. However, for his
time and the state of organized religion at that time, he would
have made a lot of sense and found many that would agree with
him and what he was trying to do and preach. His 62 most
important sermons can be eye-opening on what he was thinking
more that all the writings about him.
#Post#: 16643--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: August 25, 2020, 7:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg16071#msg16071 date=1597205956]
I agree with false prophets, fraud preaching for profits and
teachers/preachers that do not teach as the Bible asks us to
needed pointed out.
But, my question who decides what makes a teaching false?
There are Calvinist I know that state that Catholics are all
heretics. Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but
because the version of the bibles is different. Those are the
things that make me crazy. What gave that single person the
right to spew hate because of their singular viewpoint. I know
a believer in Coptic Christianity that is more holy and
spiritual in his beliefs and teaching than two of my theology
instructors. He teaches love, understanding, and guidance to
finding a belief that is similar to what I think we both
believe.
So, done with my babble and done wearing out soapboxes. lol
[/quote]Mark, May I answer one or two of your points...They are
valid and need answering.
I am a Calvinist. I believe that doctrine of Predestination...I
believe in the five points of Calvinism. Beyond that, I have
some problems with His (Calvin's) viewpoints.
I also believe that the Doctrine of Free-Will is alive and well
(john 3:16). Both of these doctrines are spoken of in the WORD
of GOD.
Therefore both of these doctrines are preached by Jesus Christ,
yet many try to make it one or the other and Yes, many Calvinist
and Armenians will attest to that.
I teach He said both and does not tell us how He reconciles
with one of them to the other. It is His word.
*********
You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but
because the version of the bibles is different. "
I am one of those that believe in the KJV vs all those other
versions. Mainly because of the references they used to be
translated. Also, because the KJV has been with us for 400 years
plus, without change except those editors notes and maps by the
publisher. On the other hand, the other versions are edited
frequently even yearly with the verses that Jesus spoke being
changed to todays meanings. This presents a problem as back when
I was growing up, a Hoe had a different meaning. A Coke had a
different meaning, etc.
I ask all of you. Take any of the newer version and apply them
to the KJV. Lets look one one verse in two different bible
versions (out of many) for brevity.
1 Tim 3:16.(KJV). "And without controversy great is the mystery
of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the
Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on
in the world, received up into glory."
1 TIM 3:16 (NIV*).."Beyond all question, the mystery from which
true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was
vindicated by the Spirit,[fn] was seen by angels, was preached
among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in
glory"
! I have put both of them in red for highlighting purposes only.
I also will not try to translate them against each other but
rather let the reader do that in their own time.
*NIV- is according to most sources the most popular version of
the bible used in most of the churches today.
I do have a question about these two bible versions of the same
verse.
Could someone that does not know about Jesus pick up a NIV
version, read that verse and come away with the fact that Jesus
is GOD. My answer to this is apparent. NO!
There are many other verses that would lead a person away from
Jesus Christ. These can be individual discussions, each and
every one of them.
********
What is a Heretic??? via Cambridge Dictionary there are two
defs.
1. someone who has an opinion that is opposite to or against the
official or popular opinion:
2. someone who has beliefs that are against the principles of a
particular religion:
Now if we take the 1. def, it would be hard to call ROC Heretics
as they have over 1 Billion paritioners/believers , thus they
are the popular opinion!
The 2nd is a little different. Again this view 2nd view of His
WORD has slipped into a minority status held by only 1 out of
every ten churches on the earth. That view is that Jesus Christ
and His Gospel (according to scriptures) are our salvation
through Faith and Faith alone. This the ROC and 9 out of every
denominational church and most non-denominational churches
disagree with.
God tells us not to have any other Gods or idols before us.
* What is praying to the saints?
*What about Praying to Jesus' mother? They made her a
co-redemptrix! Able to save a person? like Jesus?
*The ROC does not believe that a person will go to Hell but
rather a place called Perdition where the person can work off
His/her sin and finally get to heaven?
*The pope is called the Vicar of Christ...Does anyone know what
that means? really?? It means that the Pope is taking the place
of Christ here on earth.
I could go on, but it would only serve for those to say I am a
ROC phobic which I am not...I just feel and pray for the people
of that church knowing, the words of Jesus Christ in Revelation
will take most of them to hell because of the False teaching of
that Church.
***********
*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus
Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?
*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are
preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a
informed decision?
That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ
independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.
I hope this rant--did not offend you as it was only meant to
answer some of your questions and thoughts...The last paragraph
sums it all up, When I see something that is not right, I will
use GOD's word if it literally, historically and grammatically
differs, to call it out
Blade
#Post#: 16644--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 25, 2020, 7:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
First Blade, I am not offended when it comes to how each person
views their relationship with God. That is theirs, not mine.
Second, you always take time to explain and flush out your point
of view. It is not insulting or name-calling or damning me to
hell. I am no a Calvinist nor a Wesleyan or for that matter any
other defined theology at this point. I find them all
fascinating and worthy of study. Some I enjoy more than others,
some I struggle with.
I am the same when it comes to the choice of Bibles. Each to
their own. I prefer the ESV for the academic side of things as
much as I prefer the Oxford for the research side. I love the
KJV for its eloquence but find that its eloquence sometimes
hinders its understanding. But that is just my opinion and no
one else's. I do my best not to force how I see things on
others, but I will still express how I feel.
You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but
because the version of the bibles is different. " I said this
based on multiple different experiences and not as some generic
overview. If I was not clear it was from experience and only
limited to that, I apologize. But it does happen. That is
where we run afoul of choice of Bible and holding it so close to
being the only acceptable view, that we can, in some instances,
loose sight of spreading Jesus' teachings. I can get into a tit
for tat over which is more accurate which is more used, which is
based on the oldest etc. But that again defeats the complete
purpose of the teachings of Jesus.
*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus
Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?
*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are
preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a
informed decision?
That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ
independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.
Amen to that and I am agreement. I think we both have the same
goals and desires on spreading the Gospel, we have just chosen a
different approach to the same thing.
Thank you for your reply and the discussion. I am always
grateful for it.
#Post#: 16646--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: August 25, 2020, 9:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg16644#msg16644 date=1598402426]
First Blade, I am not offended when it comes to how each person
views their relationship with God. That is theirs, not mine.
Second, you always take time to explain and flush out your point
of view. It is not insulting or name-calling or damning me to
hell. I am no a Calvinist nor a Wesleyan or for that matter any
other defined theology at this point. I find them all
fascinating and worthy of study. Some I enjoy more than others,
some I struggle with.
I am the same when it comes to the choice of Bibles. Each to
their own. I prefer the ESV for the academic side of things as
much as I prefer the Oxford for the research side. I love the
KJV for its eloquence but find that its eloquence sometimes
hinders its understanding. But that is just my opinion and no
one else's. I do my best not to force how I see things on
others, but I will still express how I feel.
You said : "Not so much because of the rituals, dogma, but
because the version of the bibles is different. " I said this
based on multiple different experiences and not as some generic
overview. If I was not clear it was from experience and only
limited to that, I apologize. But it does happen. That is
where we run afoul of choice of Bible and holding it so close to
being the only acceptable view, that we can, in some instances,
loose sight of spreading Jesus' teachings. I can get into a tit
for tat over which is more accurate which is more used, which is
based on the oldest etc. But that again defeats the complete
purpose of the teachings of Jesus.
*Mark: are we not charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus
Christ (according to scriptures), not someone's beliefs?
*Are we not also charged with calling those out who are
preaching or teaching a "FALSE" Gospel so the reader can make a
informed decision?
That is what I try to do. Give the WORD's of Jesus Christ
independent of my own interpretation and let them decide.
Amen to that and I am agreement. I think we both have the same
goals and desires on spreading the Gospel, we have just chosen a
different approach to the same thing.
Thank you for your reply and the discussion. I am always
grateful for it.
[/quote]
thank you for your kind words and understanding. you have
brought much to this forum with your dedication and wisdom.
Thank You.
Blade
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