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#Post#: 14016--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: patrick jane Date: June 6, 2020, 11:28 pm
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[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg14015#msg14015 date=1591495732]
I had heard of him, but until you put the name up again, I had
not read anything about him. Interesting fellow, now I want to
learn more.
[/quote]Well, John Nelson Darby was not Wesleyan but he was a
dispensational teacher, maybe the first.
#Post#: 14017--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: June 6, 2020, 11:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
According to the two sources, I just looked at, he is considered
the Father of dispensationalism. Wesley lived right before
him, so that leads to the question, did Darby come to his
Theology because Methodism gave him a way in.
#Post#: 14657--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: June 29, 2020, 11:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As I have read more about this Theology I have come to one solid
foundation thought of John Wesley to build my understanding from
Wesley believed that the living core of Christianity was
revealed in Scripture; and the Bible was the sole foundational
source of theological development. This seems to be ground zero
for all of his theological thoughts. This should be an
interesting journey.
#Post#: 14669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: June 29, 2020, 6:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg14657#msg14657 date=1593448329]
As I have read more about this Theology I have come to one solid
foundation thought of John Wesley to build my understanding from
Wesley believed that the living core of Christianity was
revealed in Scripture; and the Bible was the sole foundational
source of theological development. This seems to be ground zero
for all of his theological thoughts. This should be an
interesting journey.
[/quote]
The most crucial point for any theology is the way to
salvation......Certainly not by works as is most denominations
world wide.
Blade
#Post#: 14670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: June 29, 2020, 6:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As I understand Wesley, is salvation came from God's grace
#Post#: 15018--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: July 10, 2020, 11:58 pm
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In studying Wesley I have concluded he is not what I would call
a Theologian's theologian. He founded no system even though he
is considered a systematic theologian. He really belonged to no
one school of thought, but seemed to embrace many for what
became his Methodist approach. He was more like the
well-educated folk preacher that had a system and method. He
did his theology in service to the church and mission. If not
for the Methodist church growth, he would have gone unnoticed in
the world of theology.
Just my thoughts at this point as I dig deeper.
#Post#: 15031--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: July 11, 2020, 6:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=953.msg15018#msg15018 date=1594443528]
In studying Wesley I have concluded he is not what I would call
a Theologian's theologian. He founded no system even though he
is considered a systematic theologian. He really belonged to no
one school of thought, but seemed to embrace many for what
became his Methodist approach. He was more like the
well-educated fold preach that had a system and method. He did
his theology in service to the church and mission. If not for
the Methodist church growth, he would have gone unnoticed in the
world of theology.
Just my thoughts at this point as I dig deeper.
[/quote]
Yes, He was a rather complex individual
Blade
#Post#: 15921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest116 Date: August 7, 2020, 1:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I was reading through a book on Wesley's theology and found a
passage. I am paraphrasing it here. I found it to be a pretty
decent explanation in the short form of his Justification
theory. Please forgive the footnote numbers interlaced
throughout. Let me know what your thoughts are if any.
John Wesley certainly confesses that believers are accepted by
God ‘wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and
suffered for them.’7 However, in the course of his development
he became afraid of antinomianism to such an extent that in the
end he did not any more use the term ‘imputation of the
righteousness of Christ’.8 He rather emphasized that our faith
is imputed to us as righteousness. Of course, there is nothing
wrong with that, but it is characteristic! In Wesley’s thinking
the inward aspect always prevails over the relationship with God
in Christ.
Moreover, for Wesley it is not justification that is decisive
for salvation, but sanctification. It is the new life that is
most necessary. Of course, justification is necessary for
salvation, but it is not sufficient. The real, essential change
in a Christian’s life has to be sanctification, or rather
holiness. Wesley mostly treats justification in view of
sanctification. Justification for Wesley only means a relative
change, sanctification a real one.9 There is a clear difference
with Calvin in this respect. For Calvin, justification and
sanctification are both given by the grace of God, and they are
closely connected. The one cannot exist without the other.
Essential to both is the relationship with Christ by faith.
This was not acceptable to Wesley. To him, Calvinism was an
impediment on the way to holiness.10
Certainly Wesley confessed that to him justification is a work
of God.11 At the same time, the fact that some people believe,
and others don’t, is caused not by divine election, as Calvin
and Whitefield would say, but by ‘the free responsiveness of
human nature’12 that was not taken away.13
Wesley had developed a special construction in order to say that
the free choice of man is still caused by free grace. Wesley was
convinced that this ‘preventing’ or ‘prevenient’ grace is given
to every human being.14 With this construction he could replace
the doctrine of predestination of Calvinism. Nevertheless,
Wesley’s doctrine of conditions must not be overlooked. In order
to receive the grace of faith there must be repentance and
‘works meet for repentance’ that go before faith.15
#Post#: 15925--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: patrick jane Date: August 7, 2020, 6:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting Chaplain, thank you.
#Post#: 15949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wesleyan Theology
By: guest8 Date: August 8, 2020, 10:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Wesley is of Armenian theology whose sole purpose was to find
away around the WORD of GOD...We see this in the first
paragraph.
“However, in the course of his development he became afraid of
antinomianism to such an extent that in the end he did not any
more use the term ‘imputation of the righteousness of Christ’."
The imputation of Righteousness was to a person who has the
faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"He rather emphasized that our faith is imputed to us as
righteousness."
Here righteousness is imputed to the Faith not the person….Thus
it could be said that this righteousness is very dependent on
the faith of the person..An armenian would argue that Free-Will
would be able to pull away from the faith thus foregoing
righteousness.
"Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is
characteristic! In Wesley’s thinking the inward aspect always
prevails over the relationship with God in Christ.”
[Color=blue]Of course this is ok with the author of this
article. [/color]
"Moreover, for Wesley it is not justification that is decisive
for salvation, but sanctification."
Justification is Salvation. Sanctification is the process of
one’s walk from sinner to righteousness.
"It is the new life that is most necessary. Of course,
justification is necessary for salvation, but it is not
sufficient. The real, essential change in a Christian’s life has
to be sanctification, or rather holiness. "
Here we see, a cross between Justification by faith and faith
alone....to justification plus the works of a change to a
Christian’s life.
Again, it seems one can lose their justification based upon
their successful change from sinner to a Christian’s Life?
"Wesley mostly treats justification in view of sanctification.
Justification for Wesley only means a relative change,
sanctification a real one. "
I think this is self explanatory. God’s justification is only
minor compared to the works of man, his sanctification to
Christian Life.
"There is a clear difference with Calvin in this respect. For
Calvin, justification and sanctification are both given by the
grace of God, and they are closely connected. The one cannot
exist without the other. Essential to both is the relationship
with Christ by faith.
This was not acceptable to Wesley. To him, Calvinism was an
impediment on the way to holiness."
It would seem that Romans 8:29-30 does not mean anything to
Wesley even though it is GOD’s WORD as seen in the next
paragraph.
"Certainly Wesley confessed that to him justification is a work
of God. At the same time, the fact that some people believe, and
others don’t, is caused not by divine election, as Calvin and
Whitefield would say, but by ‘the free responsiveness of human
nature’ that was not taken away.
Wesley had developed a special construction in order to say that
the free choice of man is still caused by free grace. "
Once you get away from the WORD of GOD, then anything goes. As
Wesley does in his special construction to make it say what He
needs it to say.
Wesley was convinced that this ‘preventing’ or ‘prevenient’
grace is given to every human being. With this construction he
could replace the doctrine of predestination of Calvinism.
Replace the WORDs of GOD is the answer!
Nevertheless, Wesley’s doctrine of conditions must not be
overlooked. In order to receive the grace of faith there must be
repentance and ‘works meet for repentance’ that go before faith.
Or
In order to receive Justification though the grace of Jesus
Christ one must have Faith in his Gospel and true repentance (a
turn away from sin). If one’s heart is true, the Holy Spirit
will become an indwelling part of the Christian’s life and will
guide, teach and protect them through the sanctification process
to complete righteousness.
Those who subscribe to Fatih plus works, will bring up Jas
2:18..”Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:
shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my
faith by my works.”
Salvation through faith does not require works prior but rather
works after. Here the “Bema Seat(1)” judgments will bestow
awards based on the works of the person after they have received
salvation. and it does not affect one’s salvation.
(1) 2 Co 5:10..[Color=red]”For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things
done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be
good or bad.”[/color]
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