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#Post#: 12700--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 6, 2020, 11:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=916.msg12650#msg12650
date=1588689671]
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
[/quote]
I'll try to address Billy's comments..of May 5, 7:08 am. a
little later this evening..
Have a great day my Brother in Christ.
Blade
#Post#: 12719--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 6, 2020, 11:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."[/quote]
First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib
rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine
but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not
see the proof.
Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but
not after Daniel's 70th week.
You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which
is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish
people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please
read the verses here.
In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of
verses 8-20.
"[color=red]For Then shall be great tribulation
This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week.
Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...
Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" was speaking directly
about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat
24:29.......
I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat
24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does
not tell us anything.
Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
with
1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." written by Paul
and preached to both Jew and Gentile
Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many
years apart and both out of context.[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.[/quote]
]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple.
Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was
the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for
him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple
in 70 AD....NONE!.
You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is
Also the WORD of GOD..
Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until
the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is
still here. Look around you Billy.
Then you say when the Jesus come the 2nd time, he
(satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again
you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for
1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his
end in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev
20:2..[color=red]"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old
serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand
years,"[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in
pursuit.[/quote]
Who is "[color=green] He is the cause of the great tribulation"
and what are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and
Jacob but they have nothing to do with the
tribulations????????Who have you been talking
to?[/color][/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.[/quote]
Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but
is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and
Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7..[color=red]"But he shall be saved
out of it: Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this
time of God will save the people of Israel and bring them
salvation by protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6)
and lead them to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6,
Romans 11:26)[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.[/quote]
Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go
through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev
3:10..[color=red]"Because thou hast kept the word of my
patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon
the earth."; other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1
Thessalonians 4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...
[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.[/quote]
Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him
by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).[color=red]."Seventy weeks are
determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"
In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land,
saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but
the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third
part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is
refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God."
As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the
dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this
happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts
therein shall be cut off and die"
We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We
have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it
shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and
under falsehood have we hid ourselves: " v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your
agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by
it."
In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with
the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells
us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of
it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will
die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in
Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which
is in the same time period.
Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of
the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'.
Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.
[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.[/quote]
Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at
that time shall Michael stand up, "AT THAT TIME" refers to
what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is
telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel
11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict
(Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict
and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his
end, and none shall help him."
Here the antichrist will have nothing left, He will die here
and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along
with his partner the 'False Prophet'.
This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in
chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is
saved' [color=red]"and at that time thy people shall be
delivered,"
Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that
shall be found written in the book."
[/color]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
[/quote]
I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect
Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The
Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.
The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the
temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000
years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of
Gog and Magog.
Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it
goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without
removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like
your version does....
Blade
#Post#: 12723--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 7, 2020, 4:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12719#msg12719
date=1588824301]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."[/quote]
[
First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib
rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine
but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not
see the proof.
Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but
not after Daniel's 70th week.
You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which
is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish
people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please
read the verses here.
In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of
verses 8-20.
"For Then shall be great tribulation
This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week.
Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...
Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" was speaking directly
about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat
24:29.......
I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat
24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does
not tell us anything.
Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
with
1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." written by Paul
and preached to both Jew and Gentile
Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many
years apart and both out of context.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.[/quote]
]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple.
Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was
the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for
him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple
in 70 AD....NONE!.
You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is
Also the WORD of GOD..
Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until
the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is
still here. Look around you Billy.
Then you say when the Jesus come the 2nd time, he
(satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again
you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for
1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his
end in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev 20:2.."And he laid
hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and
Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in
pursuit.[/quote]
Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation" and what
are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but
they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have
you been talking to?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.[/quote]
Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but
is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and
Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it:
Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of God
will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by
protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them
to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.[/quote]
Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go
through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev
3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also
will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.";
other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.[/quote]
Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him
by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"
In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land,
saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but
the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third
part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is
refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God."
As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the
dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this
happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts
therein shall be cut off and die"
We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We
have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it
shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and
under falsehood have we hid ourselves: " v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your
agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by
it."
In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with
the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells
us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of
it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will
die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in
Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which
is in the same time period.
Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of
the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'.
Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.[/quote]
Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at
that time shall Michael stand up, "AT THAT TIME" refers to
what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is
telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel
11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict
(Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict
and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his
end, and none shall help him."
Here the antichrist will have nothing left, He will die here
and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along
with his partner the 'False Prophet'.
This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in
chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is
saved' "and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"
Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that
shall be found written in the book."
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
[/quote]
I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect
Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The
Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.
The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the
temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000
years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of
Gog and Magog.
Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it
goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without
removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like
your version does....
Blade
[/quote]
I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have
only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight
of consensus throughout church history is that the church will
go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield
popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great
Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will
not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is
from man, it is persecution.
The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall
look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a
firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the
commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and
God begins dealing through His ancient people again.
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and
they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?
In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several
differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In
Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in
verse 12 He says "But before these" and He tells them what will
happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in
secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was
encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the
Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to
every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the
endtimes.
I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop
out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the
beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.
vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars
shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.
And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and
then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret
rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds
of Heaven with great ower and glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and
they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of
Heaven to the other.
This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not
multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and
angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.
You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd
and scatter the sheep.
God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been
slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation
they have been dispersed.
In chapter 14. God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem
and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women
ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN
THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as
when He fought in the day of battle.
It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct
and different times.
One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in
the second He is fighting against the nations that have come
against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations
would not have come up against them.
God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He
cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time.
We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus
actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU
keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God
will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.
You've got it wrong.
#Post#: 12731--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 7, 2020, 9:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12719#msg12719
date=1588824301]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."[/quote]
[
First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib
rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine
but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not
see the proof.
Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but
not after Daniel's 70th week.
You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which
is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish
people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please
read the verses here.
In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of
verses 8-20.
"For Then shall be great tribulation
This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week.
Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...
Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" was speaking directly
about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat
24:29.......
I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat
24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does
not tell us anything.
Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
with
1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." written by Paul
and preached to both Jew and Gentile
Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many
years apart and both out of context.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.[/quote]
]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple.
Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was
the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for
him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple
in 70 AD....NONE!.
You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is
Also the WORD of GOD..
Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until
the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is
still here. Look around you Billy.
Then you say when the Jesus come the 2nd time, he
(satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again
you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for
1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his
end in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev 20:2.."And he laid
hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and
Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in
pursuit.[/quote]
Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation" and what
are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but
they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have
you been talking to?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.[/quote]
Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but
is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and
Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it:
Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of God
will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by
protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them
to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.[/quote]
Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go
through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev
3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also
will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.";
other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.[/quote]
Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him
by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"
In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land,
saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but
the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third
part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is
refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God."
As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the
dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this
happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts
therein shall be cut off and die"
We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We
have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it
shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and
under falsehood have we hid ourselves: " v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your
agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by
it."
In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with
the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells
us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of
it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will
die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in
Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which
is in the same time period.
Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of
the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'.
Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.[/quote]
Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at
that time shall Michael stand up, "AT THAT TIME" refers to
what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is
telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel
11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict
(Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict
and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his
end, and none shall help him."
Here the antichrist will have nothing left, He will die here
and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along
with his partner the 'False Prophet'.
This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in
chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is
saved' "and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"
Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that
shall be found written in the book."
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
[/quote]
I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect
Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The
Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.
The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the
temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000
years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of
Gog and Magog.
Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it
goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without
removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like
your version does....
Blade
[/quote]
***********************May 7, 2020***************
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have
only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight
of consensus throughout church history is that the church will
go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield
popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great
Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will
not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is
from man, it is persecution.
The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall
look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a
firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the
commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and
God begins dealing through His ancient people again.
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and
they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?
In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several
differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In
Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in
verse 12 He says "But before these" and He tells them what will
happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in
secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was
encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the
Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to
every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the
endtimes.
I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop
out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the
beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.
vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars
shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.
And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and
then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret
rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds
of Heaven with great ower and glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and
they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of
Heaven to the other.
This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not
multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and
angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.
You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd
and scatter the sheep.
God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been
slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation
they have been dispersed.
In chapter 14. God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem
and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women
ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN
THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as
when He fought in the day of battle.
It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct
and different times.
One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in
the second He is fighting against the nations that have come
against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations
would not have come up against them.
God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He
cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time.
We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus
actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU
keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God
will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.
You've got it wrong.
[/quote]
It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great
Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me
continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are
saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have
better results if be his will.
Blade
#Post#: 12797--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 9, 2020, 1:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12731#msg12731
date=1588861067]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12719#msg12719
date=1588824301]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."[/quote]
[
First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib
rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine
but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not
see the proof.
Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but
not after Daniel's 70th week.
You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which
is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish
people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please
read the verses here.
In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of
verses 8-20.
"For Then shall be great tribulation
This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week.
Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...
Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" was speaking directly
about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat
24:29.......
I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat
24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does
not tell us anything.
Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
with
1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." written by Paul
and preached to both Jew and Gentile
Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many
years apart and both out of context.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.[/quote]
]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple.
Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was
the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for
him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple
in 70 AD....NONE!.
You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is
Also the WORD of GOD..
Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until
the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is
still here. Look around you Billy.
Then you say when the Jesus come the 2nd time, he
(satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again
you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for
1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his
end in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev 20:2.."And he laid
hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and
Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in
pursuit.[/quote]
Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation" and what
are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but
they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have
you been talking to?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.[/quote]
Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but
is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and
Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it:
Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of God
will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by
protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them
to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.[/quote]
Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go
through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev
3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also
will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.";
other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.[/quote]
Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him
by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"
In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land,
saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but
the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third
part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is
refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God."
As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the
dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this
happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts
therein shall be cut off and die"
We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We
have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it
shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and
under falsehood have we hid ourselves: " v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your
agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by
it."
In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with
the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells
us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of
it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will
die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in
Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which
is in the same time period.
Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of
the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'.
Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.[/quote]
Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at
that time shall Michael stand up, "AT THAT TIME" refers to
what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is
telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel
11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict
(Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict
and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his
end, and none shall help him."
Here the antichrist will have nothing left, He will die here
and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along
with his partner the 'False Prophet'.
This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in
chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is
saved' "and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"
Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that
shall be found written in the book."
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
[/quote]
I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect
Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The
Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.
The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the
temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000
years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of
Gog and Magog.
Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it
goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without
removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like
your version does....
Blade
[/quote]
***********************May 7, 2020***************
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have
only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight
of consensus throughout church history is that the church will
go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield
popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great
Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will
not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is
from man, it is persecution.
The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall
look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a
firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the
commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and
God begins dealing through His ancient people again.
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and
they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?
In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several
differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In
Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in
verse 12 He says "But before these" and He tells them what will
happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in
secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was
encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the
Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to
every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the
endtimes.
I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop
out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the
beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.
vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars
shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.
And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and
then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret
rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds
of Heaven with great ower and glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and
they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of
Heaven to the other.
This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not
multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and
angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.
You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd
and scatter the sheep.
God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been
slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation
they have been dispersed.
In chapter 14. God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem
and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women
ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN
THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as
when He fought in the day of battle.
It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct
and different times.
One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in
the second He is fighting against the nations that have come
against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations
would not have come up against them.
God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He
cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time.
We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus
actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU
keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God
will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.
You've got it wrong.
[/quote]
It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great
Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me
continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are
saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have
better results if be his will.
Blade
[/quote]
Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation] is only mentioned once
by that name it is in Jeremiah 30. YOU say 2/3rds of them will
be slaughtered, Jeremiah God says they will be SAVED, Israel
will be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.... every man
shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine ....who shall I
believe?
Daniel 12 speaking of the same time says St Michael will stand
up and Israel will be delivered. Isaiah says the the same "arise
for your light has come ...but deep darkness upon the nations"
Ezekiel says the same, Zechariah 14 says the same, God will go
forth and fight for Israel as in the day of battle.
You fail discern the difference between when God is scattering
Israel and when He is gathering them, when He is punishing them
and when He is blessing them, when He is fighting against them
and when He is fighting for them.
You jumble up the prophecies that speak about Israel's fall and
the prophecies that speak about their rise.. [/quote]
#Post#: 12801--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 9, 2020, 8:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12797#msg12797
date=1589005723]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12731#msg12731
date=1588861067]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12719#msg12719
date=1588824301]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."[/quote]
[
First you say Modern doctrine when speaking about a pre-tib
rapture. I have shown you many time, it is not a modern doctrine
but the doctrine the Bible was written with. Yet you will not
see the proof.
Yes, Jesus is coming in the clouds to take His Church away, but
not after Daniel's 70th week.
You keep saying""after the tribulation of those days...."" which
is Mat 24: 29...The previous context is Jesus Telling the Jewish
people (ONLY) the beginning of Sorrows, Mat 24:8-20.. please
read the verses here.
In Mat 24:21: "For Then" begins another time period than that of
verses 8-20.
"For Then shall be great tribulation
This period of time encompasses 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week.
Also know as Jacob's trouble as spoken by Jeremiah 30:7...
Then the verse you keep throwing up. Mat 24:29.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" was speaking directly
about the context in the verses from Mat 24:21 to Mat
24:29.......
I hope this is enough proof for you...TO move the verse Mat
24:29 into another verse with another context as you do, does
not tell us anything.
Here you are trying to put together Mat 24:29 .."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
with
1 Thes 4:17.."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." written by Paul
and preached to both Jew and Gentile
Matthew to the Jews only, Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. many
years apart and both out of context.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.[/quote]
]Where does PAUL state the Antichrist is killed in the temple.
Of course you are talking about the temple of 70 AD......Who was
the antichrist.....No one that I know of has produced a name for
him......Also there was no Abomination of Desolate at the temple
in 70 AD....NONE!.
You have forgotten Revelation or are you willing to forget it is
Also the WORD of GOD..
Yes, I claim the Antichrist will not be publically known until
the Church is gone...Do you Know His name today....The Church is
still here. Look around you Billy.
Then you say when the Jesus come the 2nd time, he
(satan-Antichrist-you do not specify) meets His end...Yet, again
you forget Revelation, where we are told Satan is bound for
1,000 years and only then after 1,000 years does he meet his
end in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev 20:2.."And he laid
hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and
Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in
pursuit.[/quote]
Who is " He is the cause of the great tribulation" and what
are you talking about....I know the story of Laban and Jacob but
they have nothing to do with the tribulations? ??? ??? ?Who have
you been talking to?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.[/quote]
Yes, Jeremiah 30 is speaking about the future Tribulations...but
is also in verse 4-7 He is speaking of the Latter days and
Jacob's trouble. In Verse 7.."But he shall be saved out of it:
Here Jer is telling the Jewish people that in this time of God
will save the people of Israel and bring them salvation by
protecting theincomparable tribulation (rev 12:6) and lead them
to a faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Jer 23:6, Romans 11:26)
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.[/quote]
Billy, what does this have to do with...The church will not go
through the tribulations as told various sources such as: Rev
3:10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also
will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.";
other scripture.. (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, John 14:3) for the rapture...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.[/quote]
Daniel's 70th week is part of the 70 weeks prophecy given to him
by Gabriel (Daniel 9:24..(KJV).."Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ......"
In Zec 13:8-9.."And it shall come to pass, that in all the land,
saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but
the third shall be left therein. v9..And I will bring the third
part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is
refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God."
As in the context of previous verses, God is speaking about the
dispersed Jews around the world (happened in 135 AD). After this
happened, God is speaking to the future where 2/3,"two parts
therein shall be cut off and die"
We see this in Isa 28:14,18..(KJV).."Because ye have said, We
have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it
shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and
under falsehood have we hid ourselves: " v18...
"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your
agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by
it."
In this passage we find what was the covenant Israel made with
the Antichrist...It was with Death and Hell. Here The Lord tells
us why the Jews made it and what will happen to them because of
it...They will be trodden down is where the 2/3 of them will
die. This is during the "Great Tribulation" Jesus speaks of in
Mat 24: 21.Jeremiah speak of Jacob's trouble in chapter 30 which
is in the same time period.
Those who flea the Abomination of Desolate at the beginning of
the "great Tribulation " will become the 'Remnant of Israel'.
Yes GOD will save all of Israel, all that is left that is.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.[/quote]
Look to the first three words in Daniel 12:1..(KJV).."And at
that time shall Michael stand up, "AT THAT TIME" refers to
what was happening in Daniel 11:36-45.. where verses 36-39..is
telling us about a willful King (antichrist). In Daniel
11:40-45, Daniel is telling us about the final conflict
(Armageddon) and who are the players. This is the final conflict
and last part of verse 45 tells us "yet he shall come to his
end, and none shall help him."
Here the antichrist will have nothing left, He will die here
and Be placed directly in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone along
with his partner the 'False Prophet'.
This is the event that the angel Michael is referring to in
chapter 12:1...At the end of 12:1....The 'all of Israel is
saved' "and at that time thy people shall be delivered,"
Yet, only the ones found in the book of life." every one that
shall be found written in the book."
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12643#msg12643
date=1588680507]
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
[/quote]
I agree with the first statement here, in that God does protect
Israel against other nations. Yet, 2/3 of them will die...The
Remnant (all) of Israel will be with him forever.
The antichrist/son of Perdition (Satan) is not slain in the
temple. (Rev 12), He is placed in the Bottomless pit for a 1,000
years when he (Satan) will be loosed again for another round of
Gog and Magog.
Billy there is so much more that I could say and every bit of it
goes against your version and follows the WORDs of GOD without
removing, adding to, changing or ignoring any of His WORDS like
your version does....
Blade
[/quote]
***********************May 7, 2020***************
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12723#msg12723
date=1588844122]
I say modern doctrine because it is a modern doctrine, you have
only quoted Ephraim of Nisbis as ancient authority. The weight
of consensus throughout church history is that the church will
go through the tribulation. J. N. Darby and Schoffield
popularised the Pretrib doctrine in the 19th century. The Great
Tribulation must not be confused with the wrath of God, we will
not be here to endure the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is
from man, it is persecution.
The 70th week does not begin until The Lord comes, "they shall
look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a
firstborn son." this marks Israel's conversion and the
commencement of their 70th week ... the church will be gone and
God begins dealing through His ancient people again.
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 distinct questions.
Jesus had been speaking about the destruction of the temple and
they asked
1. when shall these things be ?
2 what shall be the sign of Thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?
In Luke 21 you see the same sermon but you will note several
differences, not in doctrine but in the sequence of events. In
Luke He begins with the signs of the end of the world but in
verse 12 He says "But before these" and He tells them what will
happen in the meanwhile and you can read it in Acts and in
secular history, the church was persecuted, Jerusalem was
encompassed with armies, The christians fled to Petra and the
Jews fell by the edge of the sword and carried off captive to
every nation. He then reverts back to speaking about the
endtimes.
I haven't got it wrong. You can read Matt. 24 till your eyes pop
out, it is very clear and concise.
verse 21.
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the
beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.
vs 29.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars
shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shaken.
And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven and
then shall ALL the tribes of earth mourn [there is no secret
rapture] and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds
of Heaven with great ower and glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and
they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of
Heaven to the other.
This corresponds with Thessalonians exactly. There are not
multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory and
angels and trumpets. And we go to meet Him in those clouds.
You keep quoting Zechariah 13. When God will smite the Shepherd
and scatter the sheep.
God DID smite Christ and Israel WAS scattered, 2/3rds HAVE been
slaughtered, they have suffered persecutions in every nation
they have been dispersed.
In chapter 14. God will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem
and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women
ravished and half the city shall go forth into captivity and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN
THEN shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations as
when He fought in the day of battle.
It should be as clear as day to you that these are 2 distinct
and different times.
One time God is punishing the Jews and scattering them, but in
the second He is fighting against the nations that have come
against them ... they must have been re-gathered or the nations
would not have come up against them.
God cannot be scattering and gathering at the same time, He
cannot be punishing them and fighting for them at the same time.
We have seen in history the scattering of the Jews, Jesus
actually quoted Zechariah 13 and applied it to Himself ... YOU
keep applying it to the end times when ALL the prophets say God
will re-gather the Jews and fight on their behalf.
You've got it wrong.
[/quote]
It is obvious, you are still partially blinded. Billy, The Great
Tribulation is GOD's WRATH......There is no sense in me
continuing..It is obvious you don't understand what you are
saying or maybe don't really care....I give up, May God have
better results if be his will.
Blade
[/quote]
Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation] is only mentioned once
by that name it is in Jeremiah 30. YOU say 2/3rds of them will
be slaughtered, Jeremiah God says they will be SAVED, Israel
will be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.... every man
shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine ....who shall I
believe?
Daniel 12 speaking of the same time says St Michael will stand
up and Israel will be delivered. Isaiah says the the same "arise
for your light has come ...but deep darkness upon the nations"
Ezekiel says the same, Zechariah 14 says the same, God will go
forth and fight for Israel as in the day of battle.
You fail discern the difference between when God is scattering
Israel and when He is gathering them, when He is punishing them
and when He is blessing them, when He is fighting against them
and when He is fighting for them.
You jumble up the prophecies that speak about Israel's fall and
the prophecies that speak about their rise.. [/quote]
[/quote]
No, The prophecies are there and GOD wrote them, You are making
a mistake removing them, changing them, and adding to them. See
REV 22: 18-19.....
I wish you would define "ALL ISRAEL", please
Blade
#Post#: 12875--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 11, 2020, 3:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define
it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every
single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul
would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"
There are things that have to be taken into consideration.
Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has
nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only
important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil
God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience
that salvation came to the Gentiles.
Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate
plan and purpose.
I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was
despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to
a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord
of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very
long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He
forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for
good."
So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up
what Paul meant by "all Israel"
#Post#: 12895--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 11, 2020, 11:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12875#msg12875
date=1589185153]
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define
it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every
single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul
would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"
There are things that have to be taken into consideration.
Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has
nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only
important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil
God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience
that salvation came to the Gentiles.
Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate
plan and purpose.
I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was
despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to
a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord
of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very
long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He
forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for
good."
So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up
what Paul meant by "all Israel"
[/quote]
Billy you said:"I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul
would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved""
Have you not heard that Jesus is the author of the book and
scripture that said that? Then again maybe you have not
heard....
Blade
#Post#: 12896--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 11, 2020, 11:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12895#msg12895
date=1589258905]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12875#msg12875
date=1589185153]
"All Israel" is difficult to define because Paul doesn't define
it or qualify it in any way. I don't think it can mean every
single Jew. I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul
would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved"
There are things that have to be taken into consideration.
Israel is an ELECT nation and that is important. Election has
nothing to do with whether they do good or evil, the only
important thing is that God chose them. Even when they did evil
God brought good out of it. It was through their disobedience
that salvation came to the Gentiles.
Their rejection of Christ was according to God's predeterminate
plan and purpose.
I see the picture of it in the life of Joseph how he was
despised by his brethren and cast out and to all intents came to
a bloody end so far as Israel was concerned. But he became lord
of the gentiles and saviour of the world. Finally after a very
long time he was reconciled with his brethren ALL Israel He
forgave them saying "you meant it for evil but God meant it for
good."
So it is with those considerations in mind we have to weigh up
what Paul meant by "all Israel"
[/quote]
Billy you said:"I think if only a remnant were to be saved Paul
would have said "and so a remnant of Israel will be saved""
Have you not heard that Jesus is the author of the book and
scripture that said that? Then again maybe you have not
heard....
Blade
[/quote]
Don't you see, God is taking them through fire to purify them
that believe.
He said He would not return until They called His name
earnestly.
Only the remnant of Israel are the ones that actually believe.
Today there is a whole nation by the name of Israel where the
majority of people do NOT believe in the Messiah or Jesus
Christ.
#Post#: 12917--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 13, 2020, 5:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Israel is to be restored. The remnant refers to the apostolic
church as Paul says "and so at this present time God has saved a
remnant..."
It is the disobediant and unbelieving who will be restored, the
faithful remnant do not need to be restored.
They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for
Him as for a firstborn son and God will pour out upon Israel a
spirit of supplication and they will seek Him, ALL Israel. the
women by themselves will seek Him and the men by themselves will
seek Him.
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