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       #Post#: 12513--------------------------------------------------
       The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 1, 2020, 4:32 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by
       works which we have done, either before or after we are saved?
       The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this
       seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as
       soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia
       with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.
       The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of
       bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out
       of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.
       In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but
       with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of
       Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they
       call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do
       not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government
       stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself
       to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the
       alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national
       churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.
       To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th
       century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual
       eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious
       sin.
       Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year
       reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But
       Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000
       years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a
       council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer
       believed this doctrine and it was dropped.
       #Post#: 12515--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 1, 2020, 9:01 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12513#msg12513
       date=1588325572]
       Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by
       works which we have done, either before or after we are saved?
       The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this
       seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as
       soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia
       with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.
       The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of
       bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out
       of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.
       In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but
       with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of
       Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they
       call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do
       not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government
       stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself
       to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the
       alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national
       churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.
       To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th
       century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual
       eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious
       sin.
       Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year
       reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But
       Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000
       years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a
       council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer
       believed this doctrine and it was dropped.
       I am going to lock this topic for now because I want to develop
       it before opening it for debate. So ... patience please.
       [/quote]
       [font=times new roman]So how does this effect doctrine of
       salvation by works which we have done vs salvation by free grace
       alone?[/font]
       [font=times new roman]I count myself a believer in the Sovereign
       free grace doctrines or Reformed doctrines, I believe in bible
       predestination and election and I believe in the eternal
       security of the saints. But I have a bugbear for I have never
       seen preachers adequately deal with certain gospel teachings
       which do seem to suggest those being rewarded are being rewarded
       for the deeds they have done in the body.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]Take for example the LAST JUDGEMENT of
       Matthew 25 which certainly corresponds with the GREAT THRONE
       JUDGEMENT. We see that the righteous sheep on our Lord's right
       hand are rewarded because they fed the hungry and clothed the
       naked etc.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]Now you have to picture this in your
       mind.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]We see the Lord gathered together with His
       holy ones, the word for holy ones is sacredos, it can mean
       either saints or it can mean angels. This presented Catholic St
       Jerome with a dilemma for he being sure there was one holy
       catholic church felt sure he had espied her in the righteous
       sheep. He knew for sure there were not 2 churches, both the holy
       ones who came with the Lord and the righteous sheep who the Lord
       set upon His right hand. So he translated sacredos as holy
       angels and every subsequent translator has copied him.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]if the Millennium doctrine had not been
       dropped St. Jerome would have known that this cannot be right.
       The saints, that is the church, cannot possibly the subjects of
       this judgement for they will have been raptured and will have
       reigned with the Lord in heaven for 1, 000 years "so shall they
       ever be with the Lord." whatever judgement the church undergoes
       it is not this last judgement which will determine people's
       future destiny.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]So who ARE the righteous sheep?[/font]
       [font=times new roman]We have the Lord and His saints, as Paul
       teaches "when He comes to judge the world God will bring us with
       Him" and we have the sheep set at His right hand and the goats
       on His left. The sheep receive an eternal reward because they
       ministered to the needs of the saints.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]This paints a vastly different picture to
       the one we have been passed down through the centuries. We have
       always supposed that just a few shrivelled souls will be saved
       and vast bulk of humanity will be cast into the lake of
       fire.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]But God has always worked on 2 programs
       the heavenly one and the earthly one. He will create a new
       heavens and a new earth[/font]
       [font=times new roman]Blessed are they that hunger for
       righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven[/font]
       [font=times new roman]blessed are the meek for they shall
       inherit the earth. This paints a picture of a much wider mercy
       than has been believed in.[/font]
       [font=times new roman]If thought about soberly it should be the
       death knell of hellfire and damnation preaching, not that I do
       not believe in hell, I do and people should be warned. But I
       don't believed that billions and billions of human souls will be
       there.  [/font]
       #Post#: 12557--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: guest8 Date: May 2, 2020, 8:35 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       So who ARE the righteous sheep?
       Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
       Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
       those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
       and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
       in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
       or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
       hell.
       Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
       Blade
       #Post#: 12567--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 3, 2020, 5:08 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
       date=1588469750]
       So who ARE the righteous sheep?
       Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
       Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
       those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
       and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
       in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
       or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
       hell.
       Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
       of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
       Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
       The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
       they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
       that is the church not Israel.
       What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
       that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
       were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
       ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
       will concede salvation only to that last generation.
       This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
       Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
       still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
       abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
       compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
       Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
       and dead unto judgement.
       The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
       judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
       has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
       also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
       two events.
       #Post#: 12576--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: guest8 Date: May 3, 2020, 7:33 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12567#msg12567
       date=1588500493]
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
       date=1588469750]
       So who ARE the righteous sheep?
       Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
       Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
       those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
       and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
       in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
       or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
       hell.
       Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
       of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
       Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
       The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
       they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
       that is the church not Israel.
       What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
       that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
       were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
       ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
       will concede salvation only to that last generation.
       This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
       Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
       still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
       abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
       compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
       Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
       and dead unto judgement.
       The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
       judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
       has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
       also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
       two events.
       [/quote]
       Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very
       little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which
       sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000
       interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that
       interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you)
       and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically
       and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true
       believers.
       Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him,
       administer to his people and vise-versa.
       you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last
       generation."  Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids,
       Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID?   Your responding to my
       writings without thinking.
       You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the
       church."   The RCC was  and has never been the considered the
       Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and
       contains a part of all those true believer's souls.
       The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the
       first century were not believing that Jesus would come back
       within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...
       You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the
       RCC"  Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of
       churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is
       written although there have been cracks in their so-called
       armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.
       Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that
       even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they
       are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are
       still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become
       impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the
       clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the
       antichrist.
       Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.
       Blade
       
       #Post#: 12597--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 4, 2020, 4:07 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12576#msg12576
       date=1588552403]
       [quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12567#msg12567
       date=1588500493]
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
       date=1588469750]
       So who ARE the righteous sheep?
       Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
       Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
       those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
       and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
       in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
       or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
       hell.
       Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
       of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
       Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
       The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
       they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
       that is the church not Israel.
       What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
       that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
       were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
       ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
       will concede salvation only to that last generation.
       This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
       Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
       still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
       abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
       compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
       Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
       and dead unto judgement.
       The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
       judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
       has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
       also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
       two events.
       [/quote]
       Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very
       little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which
       sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000
       interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that
       interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you)
       and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically
       and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true
       believers.
       Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him,
       administer to his people and vise-versa.
       you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last
       generation."  Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids,
       Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID?   Your responding to my
       writings without thinking.
       You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the
       church."   The RCC was  and has never been the considered the
       Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and
       contains a part of all those true believer's souls.
       The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the
       first century were not believing that Jesus would come back
       within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...
       You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the
       RCC"  Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of
       churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is
       written although there have been cracks in their so-called
       armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.
       Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that
       even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they
       are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are
       still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become
       impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the
       clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the
       antichrist.
       Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to
       think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is
       going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist
       is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen
       that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.
       The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000
       years  they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not
       need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.
       I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who
       ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but
       Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none
       shall make him afraid.
       It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.
       Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the
       opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for
       works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.
       In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000
       years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are
       written in the books according to their works.
       But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone
       through faith.
       #Post#: 12630--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: guest8 Date: May 4, 2020, 10:21 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Billy, I copied your words and placed them here so I can reply
       to them,,, I have not changed them..
       Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to
       think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is
       going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist
       is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen
       that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.
       First, the aantichrist is NOT destroyed.. He and the False
       Prophet are placed in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone eternally
       at the end of Daniel's 70th week. Yes, according to Rev 19:
       prior to the Battle of Armageddon, the Angels to Heaven throw
       Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.
       The Millennium is not a time of persecution...There will be no
       wars but only piece. From what I can read from the WORD of GOD,
       Jesus will turn the earth back in time to the days before the
       Patriarchs (before the Flood).
       The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000
       years  they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not
       need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.
       Yes, is the answer to this......The Word of GOD tells us this
       in: Jer 31:34..((KJV)..[color=red]"And they shall teach no more
       every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know
       the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them
       unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive
       their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
       [/color]
       I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who
       ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but
       Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none
       shall make him afraid.
       It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.
       I did not know I contradicted Jeremiah..for heaven sakes
       Billy,
       Yes, the Sheep are those nations that help Israel and are not
       against her...(i.e. Russia, Iran,Germany, any nation that is
       Anti-Semitic, etc),
       Yes, the Lord will make Israel unafraid during the millennium
       (Jer 30:24). The Jews will have salvation (justification) in
       mortal bodies at this time.... All Jews from every nation that
       survives (the Sheep), the Jews will migrate back to Israel. Even
       Jeremiah tells us [color=red]" I make a full end of all nations
       where I have scattered you" that Jesus will gather all the Jews
       scattered through the earth back to Israel. All nations will
       help Israel in every way.
       [/color]
       Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the
       opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for
       works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.
       Billy, Rem, there are NO gentile believers on earth at the end
       of Daniel's 70th week.  ONLY SURVIVORS!
       Those Nations of Sheep are not judged at this time, they are
       allowed to live into the millennium for 100 years....At this
       time, they have a choice to accept Jesus Christ or Die or be
       sent to Hell/Hades....Their Children will also have 100 years to
       decide if they accept Jesus Christ....IF Jesus is accepted,
       these people will be able to live for the rest of the
       millennium. It is unclear what will happen to them after the
       Millennium...Will they become saints or will they simply stay in
       mortal bodies on the NEW EARTH (that has NO seas)??
       Commentary on Hell/Hades. At the end of Daniel's 70th week, Hell
       is full of souls that have died prior to the millennium. All of
       these souls are awaiting the White Throne Judgement after the
       1,000 millennium of Jesus Christ Reign on Earth.
       In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000
       years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are
       written in the books according to their works.
       But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone
       through faith.
       All those that are in HELL/Hades will be judged at this
       time....All those that have died during the millennium will be
       judged at this time...It appears those Gentiles (ONLY) that live
       through the Millennium will also be judged at this time.
       The Jews that live in the Millennium and it is apparent that
       includes their children. The Bride of Jesus (His Church) will
       not be judged during this time. They have been given
       Justtification erasing all sins in the eyes of the Lord.....
       The Church was judged at the Bema Seat according to the crowns
       they were wearing..These Crowns are given according to the WORKS
       AFTER their Salvation They will not lose their Justification but
       will be "Ranked" according to their works (again ONLY After
       Salvation)
       I hope this truly does help you Billy...The WORD of GO is very
       specific. WHY? because He has preserved it for all generations.
       Blade
       #Post#: 12643--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 5, 2020, 7:08 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
       wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
       problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
       bible i.e the Millennium.
       The problem I have with you are twofold.
       Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
       you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
       but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
       coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
       trinbulation of those days...."
       Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
       the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
       not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
       returns he meets his end not his beginning.
       He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
       troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
       is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
       fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
       to kill him.
       Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
       angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
       Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.
       But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
       assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
       shall make them afraid.
       God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
       woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
       travails but the bride, the church.
       2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
       will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.
       What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
       during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
       and deliver them.
       Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
       God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
       against Israel.
       It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
       nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
       returns.
       #Post#: 12650--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: patrick jane Date: May 5, 2020, 9:41 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
       #Post#: 12683--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The ancient debacle settled
       By: Billy Evmur Date: May 6, 2020, 3:12 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=916.msg12650#msg12650
       date=1588689671]
       Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
       [/quote]
       I do try and I only use the scripture.
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