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DIR Return to: EVANGELISM & THEOLOGY
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#Post#: 12513--------------------------------------------------
The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 1, 2020, 4:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by
works which we have done, either before or after we are saved?
The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this
seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as
soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia
with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.
The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of
bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out
of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.
In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but
with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of
Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they
call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do
not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government
stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself
to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the
alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national
churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.
To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th
century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual
eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious
sin.
Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year
reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But
Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000
years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a
council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer
believed this doctrine and it was dropped.
#Post#: 12515--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 1, 2020, 9:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12513#msg12513
date=1588325572]
Are we saved by grace alone through faith as a free gift or by
works which we have done, either before or after we are saved?
The bible never contradicts itself in doctrine so how does this
seemingly endless argument arise, it has tormented the church as
soon as Paul's footsteps receded from the outskirts of Galatia
with the arrival of new [seemingly] more authentic apostles.
The problem arises because a doctrine has been taken out of
bible. You can't do that, it will knock every other doctrine out
of kilter and the picture becomes mis-shapen.
In the 4th century the church, which was the true church but
with bishops who had usurped the leadership and Headship of
Christ made a dirty deal with the Roman government which they
call the "Peace of the church" it was done in secret so we do
not know all the details. We do know that the Roman government
stopped persecuting the church and that the church allied itself
to Rome to undermine and defeat the Byzantine empire ... the
alliance lasted a good many centuries after and national
churches to this day are mere puppets of the political power.
To this day their clergy dress as Roman senators of the 4th
century. So although they acted secretly if you have spiritual
eyes you can trace back to where the church committed serious
sin.
Now up until this time the church believed in the 1,000 year
reign of Christ on earth with his saints after His return. But
Rome also aspired to reign through their empire for a 1,000
years, in fact Rome was known as the eternal city, but at a
council of bishops it was declared that the church no longer
believed this doctrine and it was dropped.
I am going to lock this topic for now because I want to develop
it before opening it for debate. So ... patience please.
[/quote]
[font=times new roman]So how does this effect doctrine of
salvation by works which we have done vs salvation by free grace
alone?[/font]
[font=times new roman]I count myself a believer in the Sovereign
free grace doctrines or Reformed doctrines, I believe in bible
predestination and election and I believe in the eternal
security of the saints. But I have a bugbear for I have never
seen preachers adequately deal with certain gospel teachings
which do seem to suggest those being rewarded are being rewarded
for the deeds they have done in the body.[/font]
[font=times new roman]Take for example the LAST JUDGEMENT of
Matthew 25 which certainly corresponds with the GREAT THRONE
JUDGEMENT. We see that the righteous sheep on our Lord's right
hand are rewarded because they fed the hungry and clothed the
naked etc.[/font]
[font=times new roman]Now you have to picture this in your
mind.[/font]
[font=times new roman]We see the Lord gathered together with His
holy ones, the word for holy ones is sacredos, it can mean
either saints or it can mean angels. This presented Catholic St
Jerome with a dilemma for he being sure there was one holy
catholic church felt sure he had espied her in the righteous
sheep. He knew for sure there were not 2 churches, both the holy
ones who came with the Lord and the righteous sheep who the Lord
set upon His right hand. So he translated sacredos as holy
angels and every subsequent translator has copied him.[/font]
[font=times new roman]if the Millennium doctrine had not been
dropped St. Jerome would have known that this cannot be right.
The saints, that is the church, cannot possibly the subjects of
this judgement for they will have been raptured and will have
reigned with the Lord in heaven for 1, 000 years "so shall they
ever be with the Lord." whatever judgement the church undergoes
it is not this last judgement which will determine people's
future destiny.[/font]
[font=times new roman]So who ARE the righteous sheep?[/font]
[font=times new roman]We have the Lord and His saints, as Paul
teaches "when He comes to judge the world God will bring us with
Him" and we have the sheep set at His right hand and the goats
on His left. The sheep receive an eternal reward because they
ministered to the needs of the saints.[/font]
[font=times new roman]This paints a vastly different picture to
the one we have been passed down through the centuries. We have
always supposed that just a few shrivelled souls will be saved
and vast bulk of humanity will be cast into the lake of
fire.[/font]
[font=times new roman]But God has always worked on 2 programs
the heavenly one and the earthly one. He will create a new
heavens and a new earth[/font]
[font=times new roman]Blessed are they that hunger for
righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven[/font]
[font=times new roman]blessed are the meek for they shall
inherit the earth. This paints a picture of a much wider mercy
than has been believed in.[/font]
[font=times new roman]If thought about soberly it should be the
death knell of hellfire and damnation preaching, not that I do
not believe in hell, I do and people should be warned. But I
don't believed that billions and billions of human souls will be
there. [/font]
#Post#: 12557--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 2, 2020, 8:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So who ARE the righteous sheep?
Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
hell.
Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
Blade
#Post#: 12567--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 3, 2020, 5:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
date=1588469750]
So who ARE the righteous sheep?
Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
hell.
Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
Blade
[/quote]
Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
that is the church not Israel.
What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
will concede salvation only to that last generation.
This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
and dead unto judgement.
The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
two events.
#Post#: 12576--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 3, 2020, 7:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12567#msg12567
date=1588500493]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
date=1588469750]
So who ARE the righteous sheep?
Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
hell.
Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
Blade
[/quote]
Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
that is the church not Israel.
What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
will concede salvation only to that last generation.
This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
and dead unto judgement.
The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
two events.
[/quote]
Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very
little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which
sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000
interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that
interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you)
and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically
and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true
believers.
Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him,
administer to his people and vise-versa.
you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last
generation." Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids,
Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID? Your responding to my
writings without thinking.
You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the
church." The RCC was and has never been the considered the
Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and
contains a part of all those true believer's souls.
The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the
first century were not believing that Jesus would come back
within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...
You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the
RCC" Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of
churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is
written although there have been cracks in their so-called
armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.
Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that
even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they
are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are
still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become
impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the
clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the
antichrist.
Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.
Blade
#Post#: 12597--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 4, 2020, 4:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12576#msg12576
date=1588552403]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=916.msg12567#msg12567
date=1588500493]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=916.msg12557#msg12557
date=1588469750]
So who ARE the righteous sheep?
Billy, I told you who they were. These are people from the
Nations that survive Daniel's 70th week. They, the sheep are
those nations that helped Israel (were not Anti-semite) before
and during this time period. They, the people will live on earth
in mortal bodies during the millennium. They have accepted Jesus
or will before their 100 birthday or they will be thrown into
hell.
Sounds like you are more Catholic than anything else.
Blade
[/quote]
Of course yours is one of about 57 millions of interpretations
of Daniel's 70 weeks. I also have told you my opinion of Hal
Lindsey who you lean so heavily upon.
The Lord said those sheep had ministered to HIM, that is to say
they ministered to Christ in those who He called His brethren,
that is the church not Israel.
What you say makes God to be so arbitrary in His judgement in
that of all the "meek of the earth" whose deeds done in the body
were good [more poignantly] they ministered to Christ by
ministering to His brethren from since the world was founded, He
will concede salvation only to that last generation.
This post is a criticism of the RCC and their doctrines of the
Last Judgement which were formed during the time that it was
still recognisably the church. The point I am making is that by
abandoning the doctrine of the 1,000 year reign on earth they
compound into one two events. Viz-aviz the 2nd advent and the
Rapture of the church and the final resurrection of the living
and dead unto judgement.
The resurrection of the just [those in Christ] and the last
judgement are 1, 000 years apart. Since the Protestant church
has largely followed the RCC in this interpretation and have
also abandoned the Millennium doctrine they also compound the
two events.
[/quote]
Unfortunately for me, I have not read Hal's books and know very
little about him. He did get into prophecy trouble which
sidelined him for a lot of people. An NO there are not 57.000
interpretations of Daniel's 70th week. There are the others that
interprets the Bible according to their worldviews (such as you)
and those like me that read the Bible literally, Historically
and Grammatically which constitutes a majority of the true
believers.
Rem, Jesus WAS and IS a JEW. Those who minister to him,
administer to his people and vise-versa.
you said:"He will concede salvation only to that last
generation." Billy, that would leave out NOAH and His kids,
Adam and Eve, Moses, KING DAVID? Your responding to my
writings without thinking.
You said:"during the time that it was still recognisably the
church." The RCC was and has never been the considered the
Church, Jesus Built. That Church is spiritual in nature and
contains a part of all those true believer's souls.
The doctrines of the Bible, have never changed....Those of the
first century were not believing that Jesus would come back
within a few years...Paul solved that with Galatians...
You said:"Since the Protestant church has largely followed the
RCC" Yes, I agree with you. There are still a minority of
churches (brick and mortar) tha still follow the Bible as it is
written although there have been cracks in their so-called
armour when Israel and the Homosexuals are concerned.
Satan is hard at work my friend yet, Jesus tells in Mat 24 that
even the elect could be deceived if it were possible...If they
are on earth then it would be possible and Only if they are
still on earth. Thus, His "it would be possible" would become
impossible when He takes His Church of true Believers into the
clouds prior to the public knowledge of the "Man of sin", the
antichrist.
Yes, it is all Pre-tribulation.
Blade
[/quote]
Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to
think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is
going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist
is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen
that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.
The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000
years they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not
need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.
I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who
ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but
Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none
shall make him afraid.
It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.
Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the
opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for
works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.
In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000
years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are
written in the books according to their works.
But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone
through faith.
#Post#: 12630--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: guest8 Date: May 4, 2020, 10:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Billy, I copied your words and placed them here so I can reply
to them,,, I have not changed them..
Your theology is shot through with contradictions. You seem to
think that the millennium will be a time of persecution. Who is
going to do the persecuting Blade? you have seen that Antichrist
is destroyed in the temple at the return of Jesus, you have seen
that the devil is locked up for a 1,000 years.
First, the aantichrist is NOT destroyed.. He and the False
Prophet are placed in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone eternally
at the end of Daniel's 70th week. Yes, according to Rev 19:
prior to the Battle of Armageddon, the Angels to Heaven throw
Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.
The Millennium is not a time of persecution...There will be no
wars but only piece. From what I can read from the WORD of GOD,
Jesus will turn the earth back in time to the days before the
Patriarchs (before the Flood).
The Jews are not being hunted and slaughtered during the 1,000
years they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem. They will not
need ministering to, they will not be hungry or in prison.
Yes, is the answer to this......The Word of GOD tells us this
in: Jer 31:34..((KJV)..[color=red]"And they shall teach no more
every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know
the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them
unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive
their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
[/color]
I said YOU have said the righteous sheep were those who
ministered to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble but
Jeremiah says that during that time Israel will be rest and none
shall make him afraid.
It is not wise fro you to contradict Jeremiah.
I did not know I contradicted Jeremiah..for heaven sakes
Billy,
Yes, the Sheep are those nations that help Israel and are not
against her...(i.e. Russia, Iran,Germany, any nation that is
Anti-Semitic, etc),
Yes, the Lord will make Israel unafraid during the millennium
(Jer 30:24). The Jews will have salvation (justification) in
mortal bodies at this time.... All Jews from every nation that
survives (the Sheep), the Jews will migrate back to Israel. Even
Jeremiah tells us [color=red]" I make a full end of all nations
where I have scattered you" that Jesus will gather all the Jews
scattered through the earth back to Israel. All nations will
help Israel in every way.
[/color]
Moreover you are STILL left with problem I pointed out in the
opening post viz-a-viz the righteous sheep are rewarded for
works in that they did feed the hungry and clothe the naked etc.
Billy, Rem, there are NO gentile believers on earth at the end
of Daniel's 70th week. ONLY SURVIVORS!
Those Nations of Sheep are not judged at this time, they are
allowed to live into the millennium for 100 years....At this
time, they have a choice to accept Jesus Christ or Die or be
sent to Hell/Hades....Their Children will also have 100 years to
decide if they accept Jesus Christ....IF Jesus is accepted,
these people will be able to live for the rest of the
millennium. It is unclear what will happen to them after the
Millennium...Will they become saints or will they simply stay in
mortal bodies on the NEW EARTH (that has NO seas)??
Commentary on Hell/Hades. At the end of Daniel's 70th week, Hell
is full of souls that have died prior to the millennium. All of
these souls are awaiting the White Throne Judgement after the
1,000 millennium of Jesus Christ Reign on Earth.
In the Great White Throne judgement which comes after the 1,000
years we see "every man was judged out of those things which are
written in the books according to their works.
But the church is made of we who are saved by grace alone
through faith.
All those that are in HELL/Hades will be judged at this
time....All those that have died during the millennium will be
judged at this time...It appears those Gentiles (ONLY) that live
through the Millennium will also be judged at this time.
The Jews that live in the Millennium and it is apparent that
includes their children. The Bride of Jesus (His Church) will
not be judged during this time. They have been given
Justtification erasing all sins in the eyes of the Lord.....
The Church was judged at the Bema Seat according to the crowns
they were wearing..These Crowns are given according to the WORKS
AFTER their Salvation They will not lose their Justification but
will be "Ranked" according to their works (again ONLY After
Salvation)
I hope this truly does help you Billy...The WORD of GO is very
specific. WHY? because He has preserved it for all generations.
Blade
#Post#: 12643--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 5, 2020, 7:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The main point of my subject is to show that I believe in a
wider mercy than is generally taught and to show some of the
problems that arise from rejecting any doctrine taught in the
bible i.e the Millennium.
The problem I have with you are twofold.
Ist you believe the modern doctrine of a pretribulation rapture,
you always say you accept as literal the apocalypse and Daniel
but you won't take as literal the words of Jesus who says His
coming in the clouds to collect the elect is "after the
trinbulation of those days...."
Paul states clearly that Antichrist is slain in the temple when
the Lord returns, you claim as do all pretribbers that he will
not be revealed until the church is gone. But when the Lord
returns he meets his end not his beginning.
He is the cause of the great tribulation, tribulation or
troublation or Jacob's trouble is persecution. The picture of it
is when Jacob fled Laban. Laban was in hot pursuit and Jacob was
fleeing home into the arms of Esau who [as he thought] had sworn
to kill him.
Yet Jacob could not have been safer, he was guarded by mighty
angels. That is a precise picture of Jacob's trouble when the
Jews will flee home in panic with the nations in pursuit.
But in Jeremiah 30 God chides them for being terrified and
assures them they will be saved, they will be at peace and none
shall make them afraid.
God says it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the
woman, think on that, It is not God's first born son who
travails but the bride, the church.
2.You keep repeating the 70 weeks when you say 2/3s of Israel
will be slaughtered .... you won't find that in Daniel.
What you will find in Daniel 12 is the same as Jeremiah 30,
during the great tribulation St Michael will stand up for Israel
and deliver them.
Same as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah and any other prophet,
God at that time will fight against the nations who come up
against Israel.
It is true that Antichrist's final destination is the lake
nevertheless he is physically slain in the temple when the Lord
returns.
#Post#: 12650--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: patrick jane Date: May 5, 2020, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
#Post#: 12683--------------------------------------------------
Re: The ancient debacle settled
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 6, 2020, 3:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=916.msg12650#msg12650
date=1588689671]
Billy makes a pretty good case, Blade.
[/quote]
I do try and I only use the scripture.
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