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#Post#: 12259--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 21, 2020, 7:19 am
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[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=892.msg12221#msg12221
date=1587427836]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg12212#msg12212
date=1587397403]
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this
article
HTML http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm
I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I
think about it beyond interesting. I'm still studying and
praying over what i have found.
Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two
cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously
knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’
day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in
memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of
Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were
representations of flying creatures which did exist on this
planet, at some time.)
We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know
that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged
creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in
regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier
mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures
(pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip
– compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of
one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5
metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle
of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the
earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the
cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to
their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)
Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine
metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be
that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their
huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually
poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel
22:11 and Psalms 18:10.
The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based
illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have
looked like.
A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in
Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the
cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below
their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only
something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.)
What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and
refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood
on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the
wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings.
Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could
stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as
“front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like
grip-organs.
[/quote]
interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.
Blade
[/quote]wait, what? So now cherubim are satan? How? I don't
get it...a whole bunch of satan's (especially since there is
only one satan) holding up the throne of sapphire and carrying
along God's voice with their wings, not to mention calling God
holy....how do you even make that work in your mind?
#Post#: 12261--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 21, 2020, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg12230#msg12230
date=1587439593]
Follow some logic... an exercise.
Angels (including cherubim) are:
A. Spiritual beings
B. Physical beings
If you are inclined to say "both" -- resist the temptation.
If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that
angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:
Humans (including you and me) are:
A. Spiritual beings
B. Physical beings
Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and
physical.
.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality.
So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning
angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?
As humans-- what is our spiritual nature? We are flesh and
spirit....
Where does the spirit part come from?
As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...
Where does the flesh part come from?
[/quote]Apparently you and I are talking about two different
"physical and spiritual" beings since I never once said that I
believe that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature
meaning that they are real creatures. i see nothing in
scripture to suggest that they are not real living beings. Are
they flesh, obviously not since that goes against what the
scripture says about them. Are they real living beings?
Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also
teach us spiritual truths....truths some seem to be missing.
#Post#: 12265--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 21, 2020, 10:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Lori--you are all over the map on this. The one thing you
haven't done is say what you actually think. A couple of posts
back you were entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been
found, that looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense.
You've insisted, or certainly implied that you believe that
cherubim were among the people to the extent that people were
familiar with them because they interacted, and that is why no
description or design was needed for the gold-covered carvings
on the ark of the covenant. This, you contend without ever
saying what you believe regarding their nature, so I ask--
spiritual beings, or physical beings?
It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking
one or the other.
You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe
that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that
they are real creatures."
What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature
meaning real creatures' ?
That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.
And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings
as well as living spiritual beings.
If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh
(not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.
Do I have you correctly? You could have provided that by
marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of
angels.
Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the
last bit...
IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is
no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then
as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and
appear only in spirit.
The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have
been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own
idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him,
or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a
vision of these spiritual beings)
But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>>
"Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also
teach us spiritual truths."
You say--- "are they flesh? -obviously not, since that goes
against what scripture says about them"
Then you say--- "Are they real living beings? Scripture seems
to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual
truths..."
So what distinction is it that you are making between the
following? Please define:
A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings
This will help us get on the same page. Also if you could
reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not
flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.
#Post#: 12267--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: April 21, 2020, 11:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Angels can manifest physically and nephilim are physical beings
who have evil spirits I believe, who knows?
#Post#: 12272--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 21, 2020, 11:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg12265#msg12265
date=1587483980]
Lori--you are all over the map on this. The one thing you
haven't done is say what you actually think. [/quote] oiy
vey....I have been clear about what I believe....you must not be
reading it very well. [quote] A couple of posts back you were
entertaining the idea that cherub bones had been found, that
looked like pteredactyls or some such nonsense. [/quote]
lol...actually what I said was that I found the article
interesting and didn't know what to make of their
assertions....[quote] You've insisted, or certainly implied
that you believe that cherubim were among the people to the
extent that people were familiar with them because they
interacted, and that is why no description or design was needed
for the gold-covered carvings on the ark of the
covenant.[/quote] yes, I believe that the generation of Moses
must have seen cherubim...it would explain how they all knew
what cherubim looked like as well as explaining why a detailed
description was not given
The discussion (keeping context is important to reading
comprehension) was whether they were real beings or symbolic
only...to which I replied that they were physical beings in that
they exist literally but that they are also there to teach us
something spiritual...not sure why you can't figure that out.
[quote]
It's a simple question and I didn't even limit you to picking
one or the other.
You'll have to explain this>>> "I never once said that I believe
that angels are flesh but rather physical in nature meaning that
they are real creatures."
What do you mean by 'not flesh', rather 'physical in nature
meaning real creatures' ?[/quote] not sure how I can explain it
any clearer....I do Not believe that cherubim as flesh and blood
like man is, but I do believe they are literal beings...a good
example comes straight out of scripture and the resurrected
Christ...He was NoT flesh and blood in the resurrected body but
He was a being none the less. Same principle applies to what I
am and have been saying to you this whole time....why can't you
understand it? [quote]
That's what flesh means... it means physical creatures.
And "real living beings" applies to both living physical beings
as well as living spiritual beings.
If I understand you then-- you believe that they are NOT flesh
(not physical) and that they are real living (spiritual) beings.
Do I have you correctly? You could have provided that by
marking "B" on my original question concerning the nature of
angels.[/quote] no you don't have me right but you didn't even
try to respond to my clarification so that would be a good
reason why you don't understand. [quote]
Let's skip the human nature question for a moment and hit on the
last bit...
IF as you say, angels are only spiritual beings, then there is
no 'flesh part' and they are created by God as spirit only, then
as messengers from God to mankind they travel in spirit, and
appear only in spirit. [/quote] so instead of talking about
cherubim, you now want to change the discussion to what a spirit
looks like....this is largely the problem, you keep changing the
topic without warning.
I will say the same thing I told someone else long ago. WE do
NOT know what a spirit "looks" like but we do know that in
scripture, physical descriptions are given for that which is
spirit, for example, God is spirit and yet there are
descriptions of Him and even His clothes...does that mean that
spirit looks like air? probably not but it also doesn't tell us
what spirit looks like. [quote]
The image of them, that Moses had made would have had to have
been either given to him as design, or it was based on his own
idea of what they looked like-- which was either given to him,
or which he had seen himself in spirit (that is in such as a
vision of these spiritual beings)
But then you completely contradict yourself by saying>>>>
"Scripture seems to say they are....physical beings that also
teach us spiritual truths."
[/quote] if you don't think we can learn anything from the
symbollism of the cherubim I don't know what to tell you, that
is what parables do and they are all over scripture. [quote]
You say--- "are they flesh? -obviously not, since that goes
against what scripture says about them"
Then you say--- "Are they real living beings? Scripture seems
to say they are....physical beings that also teach us spiritual
truths..."
So what distinction is it that you are making between the
following? Please define:
A. Flesh
B. Physical beings
C. Living beings
D. Spiritual beings
This will help us get on the same page. Also if you could
reference the scriptures you say that determine they are not
flesh, and also the ones that say they are physical beings.
[/quote]Like i said, cherubim are not flesh and blood like man
is but they are literal beings with spiritual purpose...not sure
how I can be any clearer.
#Post#: 13094--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: May 19, 2020, 2:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZvPPZfY4s&list=WL&index=30&t=0s
#Post#: 13824--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: June 1, 2020, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMV26_yrHvM&list=WL&index=34&t=0s
#Post#: 14177--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: June 12, 2020, 10:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[img]
HTML https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/117713.jpg?w=940[/img]
HTML https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/june-web-only/michael-heiser-angels-demons-unseen-realm.html
The Truth About Angels and Demons Is Staring Us in the Face
Michael Heiser’s books cut through the myths and legends
surrounding these supernatural beings.
M. Night Shyamalan’s film The Sixth Sense catapulted the
director to overnight stardom. Most people who saw the film will
never forget the shock they felt when the trick ending was
revealed and they were forced to reassess the meaning of each
and every scene they had just witnessed. In the flash of an eye,
it became a very different movie, far richer and far stranger
than they had first imagined.
If I may leap from the secular to the sacred, from pop culture
to inspired Scripture, I suppose the two travelers on the road
to Emmaus must have felt the same way when Jesus opened up the
Old Testament to them (Luke 24:27). So, they must have thought
to themselves, that’s what Moses really meant—and David and
Isaiah and Ezekiel and Daniel! How could we have missed it when
the truth was staring us in the face all these years?
It is as if the viewers of the film and the travelers to Emmaus
were trying to put together a thousand-piece puzzle without
having been shown a picture of what the finished puzzle looks
like. Only when the director of the film, or the gospel,
revealed that picture were they able to use it as a key for
assembling the pieces into a coherent image and narrative. I
felt something of that sense of revelation when I happened upon
Michael Heiser’s book The Unseen Realm: Recovering the
Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, first published in 2015.
Heiser, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages
and is the executive director of the School of Theology at
Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida, has devoted his
career to expanding the horizons of Bible-believing Christians
who have never known what to make of Scripture’s frequent
references to “gods” and “sons of God.” Using Psalm 82 as his
starting point, Heiser argues that God chose to work through a
divine council of supernatural beings whom he created and over
whom he holds full sovereignty. He intended for his council to
also include human representatives who would meet at Eden,
itself a nexus point between heaven and earth.
But man, tempted by a rebellious member of the council, sinned
and lost Eden. Things devolved further when a series of
supernatural beings assumed bodies and mated with human women to
produce a race of giants, the Nephilim (Gen. 6:1–4). The evil of
this race furthered the wickedness of men and led to the Flood,
but even that event did not put an end to human and divine
wickedness. The campaign to build the Tower of Babel showed that
evil and rebellion were still rampant among men and gods alike.
As a result of that rebellion, God portioned the land and turned
over those portions to the control of supernatural members of
his council (Deut. 32:8–9), leaving Israel for himself as a
remaining plot of holy land to be inhabited by the descendants
of Abraham, whom he called for that purpose. But the
supernatural guardians of those portions turned, one by one, to
evil, causing God to judge and curse them, as recorded in Psalm
82. Worse yet, the descendants of Abraham turned to evil and
began to worship the rebellious gods of the other nations,
causing God to exile them to Babylon, the very land where the
Tower of Babel had been built.
Angelic Ministry
Since the publication of The Unseen Realm, Heiser has continued
to flesh out the supernatural worldview of the Bible with two
recent books on the nature, origin, and functions of angels and
demons. Cutting through the myths and legends that have
surrounded these divine beings, Heiser allows us to see them
through the eyes of the writers of the Old and New Testament as
well as the Jewish and Greek writers who lived in the
intertestamental period.
Although Heiser presents his case and offers his conclusions in
an accessible manner, his points are backed up by a mountain of
textual, historical, anthropological, and linguistic research.
Indeed, one of Heiser’s great strengths is taking findings from
esoteric, highly academic papers and helping ordinary,
non-specialist readers understand their relevance for
interpreting the Bible and seeing the overall shape of God’s
work in human history.
In his 2018 book Angels: What the Bible Really Says About God’s
Heavenly Host, Heiser explains that message-bearing (what the
word angel means in Greek) marks only one of the many functions
performed by the supernatural, non-physical beings that God
created. Angels also act as ministers of God’s will, watchers
who are ever vigilant, soldiers in God’s heavenly host (or
army), interpreters to men of God’s messages, protectors of
God’s holiness, executors of God’s divine judgment, and members
of God’s council who participate in and bear witness to God’s
sovereign decisions and decrees.
Heiser presents a dynamic picture of God holding session with
his divine council, but he also lays down biblical limits for
angelic authority and advice. One of the best examples in
Scripture of God convening his council is 1 Kings 22:19–23, when
he asks how the wicked king Ahab might be defeated. After
performing a close analysis on the passage, Heiser concludes
that the “text presents us with a clear instance where God has
sovereignly decided to act but allows his lesser, intelligent
servants to participate in how his decision is carried out. God
wasn’t searching for ideas, as though he couldn’t conceive of a
plan. He allowed those who serve him the latitude to propose
options.”
In his overview of the study of angels between the period of
Exile and the ministry of Christ, Heiser marshals his prodigious
research to dispel two popular myths. First, he demonstrates
that Second Temple Jewish writers, including the translators of
the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) and the Qumran
community that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, did not eliminate the
language of angels as sons of god out of a fear of promoting
polytheism. Their writing shows quite the opposite: a clear
understanding that Yahweh is the only God but that he is
surrounded by a divine council of supernatural beings who are
often called gods. Second, he shows that the Dead Sea Scrolls do
not embody a dualistic vision of good and evil as equal and
opposite forces, but of angelic warfare between beings created
by the omnipotent and always-benevolent Yahweh.
Whereas the Old Testament speaks of the angel of the Lord
carrying out the judgment of God, the New Testament, written
after God became man, no longer mentions the Angel of the
Lord—because judgment has been “entrusted” to Christ (John
5:22). Angels are described as exacting God’s vengeance in the
apocalyptic book of Revelation, but in the rest of the New
Testament, they are usually seen as ministering to believers.
Some have argued that Christ’s death on the cross redeemed
fallen angels as well as fallen human beings, Heiser refutes
this theory, making it clear that “the sacrifice of Jesus does
not help angels. It helps believers—the children of Abraham by
faith.”
Demonic Rebellion
In his most recent book, Demons: What the Bible Really Says
About the Powers of Darkness, Heiser takes up the story of those
fallen angels whom even the death of Christ could not redeem.
The book dispels the myth, popularized in John Milton’s classic
poem Paradise Lost, of a single rebellion against God led by
Satan before the world was created, a myth that has little
actual scriptural support. Instead, Heiser defines demons, or
evil spirits, as “members of God’s heavenly host who have chosen
to rebel against his will.” Rather than taking place once, as it
does in Paradise Lost, this rebellion (as noted earlier in this
review) took different forms at different times: the serpent in
Eden, the sons of God who slept with the daughters of men, and
the disobedient sons of god Yahweh put in charge of the nations
after the Tower of Babel.
Still, despite their rebellion, the evil spirits continued to be
spirits living in a spiritual realm. As Heiser observes, “Their
rebellion did not mean they were no longer part of that world or
that they became something other than what they were. They are
still spiritual beings. Rather, rebellion affected (and still
characterizes) their disposition toward, and relationship to,
Yahweh.” As for the demons described in the Old Testament,
Heiser explains that some are “associated with the realm of the
dead and its inhabitants,” some are linked to specific
geographical locations opposed to God’s rule, and some are
“preternatural creatures associated with idolatry and unholy
ground.”
Regarding the third kind, Heiser notes that, while in theory any
ground “not occupied by the presence of God” could be considered
unholy, all places outside Jerusalem were not therefore places
of spiritual danger. Nevertheless, Heiser writes, “forbidding,
uninhabitable places in lands associated with other gods were
unholy in the sense of sinister and evil. This was especially
true of the desert wilderness, whether literal or used
metaphorically to describe places ravaged by divine judgment.”
It was into that wilderness that the scapegoat was sent on the
Day of Atonement (Lev. 16), a wilderness quite literally viewed
as a locus of “a cosmic struggle involving the spiritual world.”
Many modern readers, even if they believe in biblical inerrancy,
will find these themes unsettling, but they are attested to in
the Old Testament, carried forward into the Second Temple period
after Israel’s exile, and glimpsed in the exorcisms performed by
Jesus in the New Testament.
What Heiser has to say about Satan will be familiar to many, but
perhaps not his argument that the demons who seek to tempt,
subvert, and possess human beings were believed to have their
origin in the hybrid Nephilim that were born to the sons of god
and daughters of men. When those Nephilim died, Heiser claims,
their disembodied spirits became demons. Another unfamiliar
theme concerns the origin of the cosmic, political-territorial
spiritual warfare we discover in the Bible. Heiser says it began
not in a primeval rebellion by Satan and his minions, but
instead when “the sons of god [to whom God had apportioned the
nations] transgressed Yahweh’s desire for earthly order and just
rule of his human imagers, sowing chaos in the nations.”
But we need not fear, Heiser assures us; after Christ defeated
the power of Satan, he opened the way to a reclamation of the
demon-controlled nations. This reclamation took place at
Pentecost (Acts 2), when the gospel was carried to all those
lands previously ruled by the rebellious sons of god. Good
Friday, Easter, and Pentecost together healed the division begun
by Babel, making it possible for the Gentiles to free themselves
from false gods and embrace Jesus as Lord.
Breaking Down the Darkness
Though many readers might trip over the technical aspects of
Angels and Demons, with their lengthy charts and heavy emphasis
on the parsing of Hebrew and Greek terms, Heiser keeps things
moving and skillfully sums up his main points. I do wish,
however, that he had been more sympathetic to modern
spiritual-warfare advocates who share Heiser’s concept of cosmic
strife that includes a strong territorial element. Though I
agree with Heiser that the fallen sons of god were disinherited
by the Cross, the Resurrection, and the spreading of the gospel,
it’s hard to deny that certain areas of the globe remain
immersed in spiritual darkness.
Spiritual-warfare advocates have located just such an area in a
rectangle that stretches from the 10th to the 40th latitude
north of the equator. This “10/40 window,” as missions
strategists sometimes call it, encompasses North Africa, the
Middle East, China, Pakistan, and India. Given that the vast
majority of unreached people groups live in this window and that
persecution of the church is strongest there, it does not seem
unreasonable to suggest that a territorial reign of evil (or
stronghold) exists in that area of the globe, and that intense
prayer on the part of believers may help break down demonic
communication.
I believe Heiser’s books can inspire that needed movement of
prayer just as they have illuminated the full meaning and extent
of spiritual warfare in the pages of God’s Word.
Louis Markos is professor in English and scholar in residence at
Houston Baptist University and holds the Robert H. Ray Chair in
Humanities. His books include Heaven and Hell: Visions of the
Afterlife in the Western Poetic Tradition (Cascade Books).
#Post#: 15118--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: July 15, 2020, 12:49 am
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZKzig3Ho3Q
#Post#: 15749--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: patrick jane Date: July 31, 2020, 12:52 pm
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If you don't think the videos I have posted in this thread
actually belong in this thread, then you haven't listened to
them.
11 minutes
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYdv9e9xyNY
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