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#Post#: 11983--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 16, 2020, 6:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I bolded what you say you believe above--
Yes, but not 'sometimes' --- always. There is always a duality
of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we
were made.[/quote] I have to disagree here....the parables for
example do NOT have a literal understanding just a spiritual
one. [quote]
The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or
bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as
a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which
have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.
The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course
are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never
having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image
of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the
time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on. To a
person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is
enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle
and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His
presence. They don't recognize the greater concept, which
expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us
being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence
overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover
over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical
expression of where He conceptually places His feet. It's a
much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic
usage.[/quote] I have a problem accepting what I THINK YOU ARE
SAYING HERE in that God gave specific instructions and told
Moses that those instructions were to be followed exactly. Yet
there is no detailed description of the cherubim not to mention
that they were not only to make three dimensional cherubim on
the ark but two dimensional woven cherubim as well. If there
was not detail of what they looked like, then just putting wings
on the curtains and on the ark would not seem like enough to
claim following the instructions exactly. [quote]
As for literal? Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and
temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.
In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication
of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God
dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his
feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more
again, than a symbol-- of you.[/quote] of course no "building"
can contain the Living God but that isn't the discussion which
might be why I confused your previous post where you claimed by
posting that you were talking about the OP question but no
apparently you wanted to change the topic.
#Post#: 11984--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 16, 2020, 6:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg11959#msg11959
date=1586968053]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11955#msg11955
date=1586966023]
[/quote]I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the
topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid
that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on
the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without
warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.
Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the
symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer
scriptures understanding.
So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim
looked like.
One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this
is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to
explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family
member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes
it hard to believe what scripture says. As I thought about it,
I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest
days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of
our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if
the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it
would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim
could have been real. That being said, I believe that many
things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or
spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often
times both.
[/quote]
I bolded what you say you believe above--
Yes, but not 'sometimes' --- always. There is always a duality
of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we
were made.
The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or
bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as
a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which
have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.
The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course
are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never
having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image
of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the
time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on. To a
person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is
enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle
and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His
presence. They don't recognize the greater concept, which
expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us
being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence
overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover
over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical
expression of where He conceptually places His feet. It's a
much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.
As for literal? Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and
temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.
In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication
of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God
dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his
feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more
again, than a symbol-- of you.
[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is
that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put
the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put
the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee
from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which
are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will
give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
#Post#: 11989--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 16, 2020, 10:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is
that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put
the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put
the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee
from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which
are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will
give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]
The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the
comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might
think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the
Word was God....
The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two
stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not
physical. The tablets of stone were physical of course, but
just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the
presence of God- with - us -- This is the same way that the
Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in
the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men
via the Spirit of God.
#Post#: 11990--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 16, 2020, 10:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg11989#msg11989
date=1587051565]
[/quote]btw, scripture says that the symbolism of the ark is
that God will be with them...Exodus 25 21-22 And thou shalt put
the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put
the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee
from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which
are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will
give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
[/quote]
The quote feature in your post went awry, but in response to the
comment above-- yes, this is true however the way you might
think of it has this conceptual duality that I harp on about...
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the
Word was God....
The testimony-- which came to Moses and was written down on two
stone tablets was the Word of God-- which is spirit, not
physical. The tablets of stone were physical of course, but
just representative of the Word (testimony) and therein the
presence of God- with - us -- This is the same way that the
Word came to us not on tablets of stone, but in the flesh-- in
the body of Jesus -- the testimony once again delivered to men
via the Spirit of God.
[/quote]if you do NOT see the difference between an image and a
text, i don't know how to help you. The question is not about
whether or not they were given instructions nor if the cherubim
were real figures, or if they had another meaning, or any number
of other things I could glean from your texts that you want to
change the topic to...the question is how they knew what
cherubim looked like given that God did not give detail
descriptions of the cherubim.
#Post#: 11998--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 16, 2020, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Okay Lori--
It's obvious that you don't want a discussion or any particular
insight that one could offer, rather you are seeking someone to
affirm your own ideas. Good luck in your search for
affirmation.
I've explained half a dozen times that Moses would know what he
was looking at because he saw with his own eyes (vision) in
spirit what a cherub looked like and he interacted with them (in
spirit). How he communicated what they looked like to another--
to a sculptor, or carver (who we are told were also inspired by
God to do the work)...... who cares? Only you it seems, because
you want someone to tell you exactly what you want to hear?
And David, and then Solomon worked with what they already had...
the ark that Moses had made.
Carry on.... sans moi
#Post#: 12025--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 17, 2020, 6:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Interesting take on who I am and what I believe since I already
adjusted my thoughts and opinions on what others have
contributed...not sure how changing my mind based on what others
have said is me wanting affirmation but okay, it is what it
is....
Also, I already told you that it is kind of important when
someone says that the nephilim make it hard to take the bible
seriously. If the nephilim are fallen cherubim which is one
prominent theory, then if Moses generation actually knew what
the cherubim looked like then it would NOT be far fetched to
assume they also knew about nephilim which means that you just
showed someone who was questioning the accuracy of scripture
that it is believable.
Now, do you want to talk about symbolism, I am still working on
it, but we can change the topic before I'm ready to if you
really insist.
#Post#: 12212--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 20, 2020, 10:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this
article
HTML http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm
I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I
think about it beyond interesting. I'm still studying and
praying over what i have found.
Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two
cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously
knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’
day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in
memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of
Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were
representations of flying creatures which did exist on this
planet, at some time.)
We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know
that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged
creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in
regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier
mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures
(pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip
– compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of
one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5
metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle
of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the
earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the
cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to
their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)
Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine
metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be
that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their
huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually
poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel
22:11 and Psalms 18:10.
The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based
illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have
looked like.
A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in
Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the
cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below
their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only
something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.)
What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and
refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood
on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the
wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings.
Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could
stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as
“front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like
grip-organs.
#Post#: 12213--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 20, 2020, 10:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In relation to the symbolism of the Cherubim I found Ezekiel 10
especially interesting...in my visual mind I read this and see
the cherubim kind of like (different but kind of like) those who
carry the liter of a King or Queen through the streets.
Attendants that raise the real King of kings high so that His
glory can be seen. What a beautiful picture of the KING of
Kings and LORD of Lords.
#Post#: 12221--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest8 Date: April 20, 2020, 7:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg12212#msg12212
date=1587397403]
as I was looking into the symbolism of Cherubim I found this
article
HTML http://www.biblepages.net/rda012.htm
I especially found this part interesting...now sure yet what I
think about it beyond interesting. I'm still studying and
praying over what i have found.
Moses arranged the decoration of the portable sanctuary with two
cherub-statues and also pictures of cherubs. So, he obviously
knew what cherubs looked like. This indicates that in Moses’
day, those creatures were still in existence, or at least in
memory. (It is reasonable to assume that the cherub-images of
Exodus 25, 36 and 37, 1 Kings 6 and 2 Chronicles 3, were
representations of flying creatures which did exist on this
planet, at some time.)
We do not know what the cherubs exactly were, but we do know
that archaeologists have found fossil skeletons of huge winged
creatures that fit the biblical description of the cherubs, in
regard to their size as well as in regard to the earlier
mentioned “hand” matter. Those fossils are remains of creatures
(pterosaurs) that were several metres from wing-tip to wing-tip
– compare that with 1 Kings 6:23, “ten cubits from the tip of
one wing to the tip of the other”. (Ten cubits is around 5
metres.) Those fossils have hand-like grip-organs by the middle
of the front of their foldable wings; compare this with the
earlier discussed verse in Ezekiel 10 which shows that the
cherubs had something that looked like a hand, connected to
their wings. (Not arms, but some hand-like grip-organs.)
Apparently, certain pterosaurs had a wing-span of up to nine
metres. They have been extinct for a long time, but it could be
that some of them were still in existence in Moses’ day. Their
huge size and wing-span would even fit in with the (eventually
poetical) mention of the Lord “flying on a cherub”, 2 Samuel
22:11 and Psalms 18:10.
The page rda012b.htm contains an on fossil skeletons based
illustration of how certain pterosaurs and their wings may have
looked like.
A note: Some might wonder about the word “below” or “under” in
Ezekiel 10:8 which records how the prophet noted that the
cherubs appeared to have something like a hand under or below
their wings. (Please note that no arm is mentioned but only
something similar to a hand, somehow connected to the wings.)
What did that word “under”, Hebrew tachath, really mean and
refer to? Well, the meaning could be that when the cherubs stood
on the ground, those grip-organs were literally “under” the
wings, that is, closer to the ground than the rest of the wings.
Clarification: Today, it is thought that some pterosaurs could
stand “on all four”, by using the bend of their folded wings as
“front feet”. That is also where they had the hand-like
grip-organs.
[/quote]
interesting you comparing Satan with a winged dinosaur.
Blade
#Post#: 12230--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 20, 2020, 10:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Follow some logic... an exercise.
Angels (including cherubim) are:
A. Spiritual beings
B. Physical beings
If you are inclined to say "both" -- resist the temptation.
If you can't resist the temptation and insist on saying that
angels are both spiritual and physical.... then:
Humans (including you and me) are:
A. Spiritual beings
B. Physical beings
Now, likely EVERYONE will say we are both spiritual and
physical.
.....and if you did, then good--- you recognize duality.
So let's circle back to the original proposal concerning
angels--- does it affect how you look at angels?
As humans-- what is our spiritual nature? We are flesh and
spirit....
Where does the spirit part come from?
As angels--- they are spirit and flesh...
Where does the flesh part come from?
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