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#Post#: 11870--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 13, 2020, 11:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11855#msg11855
date=1586783946]
Blade sort of made the point I was going to make but somehow
this morning I can't find some of the buttons for reply.
So the question is this...if it was all through vision, how did
they all have the same vision that Joe down the road didn't come
along and say, "nope, in my dream, the cherubim looked like
this..." and Sally walked into the tabernacle and said, "nope
you got it wrong, God told me in a dream that they looked like
this..." etc.
[/quote]
Because God gave the dreams. And God isn't at all confused
regarding what cherubim might look like. So... if God were to
allow you to make a copy, He would give you the understanding
required to do so.
OR... you could ask dakk, but he might say---
HTML https://youtu.be/SSVDZ0MySk8
#Post#: 11887--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest8 Date: April 13, 2020, 7:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg11870#msg11870
date=1586794906]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11855#msg11855
date=1586783946]
Blade sort of made the point I was going to make but somehow
this morning I can't find some of the buttons for reply.
So the question is this...if it was all through vision, how did
they all have the same vision that Joe down the road didn't come
along and say, "nope, in my dream, the cherubim looked like
this..." and Sally walked into the tabernacle and said, "nope
you got it wrong, God told me in a dream that they looked like
this..." etc.
[/quote]
Because God gave the dreams. And God isn't at all confused
regarding what cherubim might look like. So... if God were to
allow you to make a copy, He would give you the understanding
required to do so.
OR... you could ask dakk, but he might say---
HTML https://youtu.be/SSVDZ0MySk8
[/quote]
I was using GOD's authority to describe the a cherub..only He
knows exactly what they look like. As in:
Gen 3:24.."So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of
the garden of Eden Cherubims[sup]1[/sup], and a flaming sword
which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
Satan was a cherub[sup]2[/sup]and was probably over the cherubim
like Michael was over the Lord's army of angels as an archangel.
Blade
1. Oh, excuse the one of the 200 errors of the KJV...Cherubim is
already plural. It did not need the "s".
2. Eze 28:14.."Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I
have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou
hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
#Post#: 11910--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 14, 2020, 7:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in
order for there to be no debate over it. Look how much debate
there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for
the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they
know which version or vision to use? Did the people of that day
see cherubim? did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he
was an artist? was it a miracle that God just came down and
gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one
that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers
alike? How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that
the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the
gold?
#Post#: 11916--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 14, 2020, 9:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you
insist it does.
Even if you've never been to a water park- if I went to one and
then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could
gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what
they are like. And then if you ever had the chance to see one
for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it....
ahhhh..... a water park....
But you are familiar with water parks because you've already
seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?
How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in
Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and
strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert? If I
tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of
these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never
seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were
willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could
understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.
The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something. They
are models or copies of something. They are an artists'
rendering of something... but what is that something. Ezekiel's
vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot
of God. What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what
we would associate with any winged thing. They fly. They
swiftly move from one place to another. They hover. They
transport. They carry.
Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub
wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't
literal. It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the
Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is
carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.
Carried on the wings of cherubim.
I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in
your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it
is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written
through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and
certainly Enoch.
#Post#: 11932--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest8 Date: April 14, 2020, 3:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11910#msg11910
date=1586866708]
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in
order for there to be no debate over it. Look how much debate
there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for
the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they
know which version or vision to use? Did the people of that day
see cherubim? did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he
was an artist? was it a miracle that God just came down and
gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one
that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers
alike? How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that
the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the
gold?
[/quote]
we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions
will have the answers.
#Post#: 11946--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 15, 2020, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg11916#msg11916
date=1586874868]
You are investigating a mystery that exists only because you
insist it does.
Even if you've never been to a water park- if I went to one and
then described to you in detail what I had experienced you could
gain enough understanding of water parks yourself to know what
they are like. And then if you ever had the chance to see one
for yourself-- you'd immediately know it when you saw it....
ahhhh..... a water park....
But you are familiar with water parks because you've already
seen them, or been to them, or heard about them already, right?
How about if I tell about a cave of wonders I explored in
Carlsbad and the things I saw there, or the Joshua trees and
strange landscape near where I had a house in the desert? If I
tell you about the things I saw in Peru, or in Rome--- some of
these things you've never heard about and maybe you have never
seen, but if I were to describe them to you and if you were
willing to believe the words I say to you, then you could
understand and 'get a picture' at least of what I'm describing.
The cherubim on the ark those creatures depict something. They
are models or copies of something. They are an artists'
rendering of something... but what is that something. Ezekiel's
vision is often referred to the chariot of fire-- or the chariot
of God. What these things we loosely call cherubim do is what
we would associate with any winged thing. They fly. They
swiftly move from one place to another. They hover. They
transport. They carry.
Of the ark itself it is written that He stands atop the cherub
wings-- that it is as the place He rests his feet... this isn't
literal. It speaks of a spiritual concept that being when the
Spirit of God (which is His Word) is manifest on Earth, it is
carried, transported, delivered by such as this chariot.
Carried on the wings of cherubim.
I don't expect you to accept it because you are entrenched in
your own ideas, like so many others... but there it is, and it
is there-- if you take the time to read it just as it is written
through out scripture by David, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, and
certainly Enoch.
[/quote]Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never
existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange,
I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and
that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews
9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have
thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and
Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since
they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.
2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a
rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen
indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though
possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion
usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own
way. Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and
interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that
angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
#Post#: 11947--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 15, 2020, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=892.msg11932#msg11932
date=1586895324]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11910#msg11910
date=1586866708]
My point was that someone had to have a definitive picture in
order for there to be no debate over it. Look how much debate
there is over the very fact that the people crafted cherubim for
the tabernacle, some in fabric, some in gold....how did they
know which version or vision to use? Did the people of that day
see cherubim? did they ask Moses to draw it and hope that he
was an artist? was it a miracle that God just came down and
gave them all the same identical vision so that there was no one
that disagreed with the vision, believers and non believers
alike? How did they know what the cherubim looked like so that
the images in the curtains was identical to the images in the
gold?
[/quote]
we will only really know when we get to Heaven. All questions
will have the answers.
[/quote]true enough but an interesting topic nonetheless
#Post#: 11954--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 15, 2020, 10:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11946#msg11946
date=1586953739]
[/quote]Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never
existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange,
I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and
that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews
9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have
thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and
Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since
they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.
2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a
rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen
indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though
possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion
usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own
way. Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and
interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that
angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
[/quote]
No.
What you state is not what I believe. Unless I say it as you
state it, don't state that I said it. Deal?
If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it. But
don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and
I will do exactly the same for you.
Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made
exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it,
just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was
intended. These were physical things made in the likeness of
spiritual things. You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I
prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is
relatively subtle. I'll give you an example-
If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something
else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the
conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the
symbolism alone hearkens to.
Here's an image--- symbolically- what?
HTML https://i.etsystatic.com/12265857/r/il/780f53/895927212/il_794xN.895927212_qt1m.jpg
#Post#: 11955--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest24 Date: April 15, 2020, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=892.msg11954#msg11954
date=1586964670]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11946#msg11946
date=1586953739]
[/quote]Interesting, so you believe that the tabernacle never
existed and neither did the ark of the covenant....how strange,
I understand scripture to tell us that they really did exist and
that they are both literal and symbolic....Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews
9:9-12...as to how they knew what cherubim looked like, I have
thought of three possibles...1. God showed them to Moses and
Moses drew them for the craftsmen...which would be a feat since
they are both on the curtains and on the ark of the covenant.
2. God gave all the craftsmen the same vision and then took a
rebellious people and convinced them all that the craftsmen
indeed had it right...which also seems far fetched though
possible, I mean they were a rebellious people and rebellion
usually comes in the form of pride and wanting things their own
way. Finally, 3. the people of the day actually saw and
interacted with cherubim which seems the most likely given that
angels were still revealing themselves as necessary
[/quote]
No.
What you state is not what I believe. Unless I say it as you
state it, don't state that I said it. Deal?
If you want to quote what I say, by all means- quote it. But
don't use your own words and ideas and then attribute to me, and
I will do exactly the same for you.
Yes, the tabernacle Moses built was a real tent and it was made
exactly to the specs that Moses was given and told to make it,
just as the ark was made in exactly the manner that it was
intended. These were physical things made in the likeness of
spiritual things. You say- literal, and symbolic... yes- I
prefer to say literal and conceptual. The difference is
relatively subtle. I'll give you an example-
If I present to you an image-- it can remind you of something
else in that it is 'symbolic' of that something else, but the
conceptual meaning can be much broader and deeper than the
symbolism alone hearkens to.
Here's an image--- symbolically- what?
HTML https://i.etsystatic.com/12265857/r/il/780f53/895927212/il_794xN.895927212_qt1m.jpg
[/quote]I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the
topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid
that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on
the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without
warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.
Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the
symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer
scriptures understanding.
So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim
looked like.
One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this
is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to
explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family
member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes
it hard to believe what scripture says. As I thought about it,
I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest
days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of
our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if
the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it
would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim
could have been real. That being said, I believe that many
things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or
spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often
times both.
#Post#: 11959--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did they know what a cherubim looked like?
By: guest125 Date: April 15, 2020, 11:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=892.msg11955#msg11955
date=1586966023]
[/quote]I'm sorry you saw my trying to apply your words to the
topic at hand as me misrepresenting you...not sure how to avoid
that though since all any of us has is comprehension based on
the discussion at hand...when someone changes the topic without
warning, it isn't the fault of the reader.
Now back to topic...the scriptures I posted talk about the
symbolism....you can use concept if you want but I prefer
scriptures understanding.
So, how do you think the people of the day knew what a cherubim
looked like.
One of several reasons I am asking what people think about this
is that I am writing a book that focuses some on angels (hard to
explain in this short post) and as I was talking to a family
member about the book and the nephilim she said that that makes
it hard to believe what scripture says. As I thought about it,
I came to the conclusion that there is much about the "earliest
days" that we don't know and if we did, it might change some of
our objections to things we don't understand...for example, if
the people of Moses day were still seeing cherubim, then it
would not be a stretch at all to understand that the nephilim
could have been real. That being said, I believe that many
things in scripture have both a literal and a figurative or
spiritual meaning....it isn't usually one or the other but often
times both.
[/quote]
I bolded what you say you believe above--
Yes, but not 'sometimes' --- always. There is always a duality
of physical and spiritual, for this is our nature and how we
were made.
The image above 'symbolically' might relate to a rodeo, or
bronc' bustin' or something like that to anyone familiar, but as
a concept it's much more as it relates to horse and rider which
have meaning far beyond the symbolic usage.
The ark and the cherubim that 'hover' over it's cover of course
are symbolic of a heavenly scene and anyone even today never
having 'seen' the ark with their own eyes can recognize an image
of what is used to represent the ark and relate it easily to the
time of Moses, and then David and Solomon and so on. To a
person of the Jewish faith and tradition- the symbolism is
enough and they relate it to God's presence in the tabernacle
and then the temple and the cherubim are present with His
presence. They don't recognize the greater concept, which
expresses the presence of God in us... the greater concept of us
being His temple-- His ark our hearts, His presence
overshadowing our lives through even such as angels who hover
over US-- his physical footstool (that we are the physical
expression of where He conceptually places His feet. It's a
much stronger concept and far beyond any simple symbolic usage.
As for literal? Yes, there was a literal ark and tabernacle and
temple... but these are not literally where He is/was present.
In the passage I posted earlier concerning Solomon's dedication
of the temple, Solomon was clear on this understanding... God
dwells in the heavens (spiritually) and on earth He rests his
feet on the ark, but the gold-covered physical ark is no more
again, than a symbol-- of you.
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