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#Post#: 12644--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 5, 2020, 7:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=879.msg12628#msg12628
date=1588645264]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12598#msg12598
date=1588583476]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=879.msg12575#msg12575
date=1588550641]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12570#msg12570
date=1588502490]
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=879.msg12568#msg12568
date=1588500834]
I have to agree with Blade, Billy Boy.
[/quote]
That's ok.
Blade and I have a history of disagreement but I hope we are
still friends.
[/quote]
Of Course we are, but I am going to keep trying to get you to
see the pretrib theology....
Blade
[/quote]
It is a modern doctrine, Jesus said "after the tribulation of
those days ... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the
clouds" after means post.
Darby's interpretation was thrown out by British theologians so
he took it to America. It is a lie.
[/quote]
Billy.....Mat 24:29 starts out with your words.."Immediately
after the tribulation of those days" Yet, you are forgetting the
context of the previous verses that Jesus is speaking of...
Starting in Mat 24:15, Jesus is telling us about the AoD that
will take place and He warns people to flea Judiah immediately.
The in Mat 24:21, His words should jar the teeth of all
humanity....(KJV).."For then shall be great tribulation, such as
was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor
ever shall be."
This "Great Tribulation" is the same as 'Jacob's Trouble'
spoken by Jeremiah 30:7.
And then Jesus speaks of something unrealistic in Mat
24:22.."And except those days should be shortened, there should
no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be
shortened." What would cause an earthly catastrophe that would
kill all life on earth....Could this be Nuclear War?
It could not have been thought of in the 1860. a musket would
/could not kill the whole world.
I regress,the context of your verses Mat 24:29-30..specifically
Verse 29 starts out with "Immediately after the tribulation of
those days" Yes, immediately after the "Great Tribulation" where
2/3 of the Jewish Nation will die and 1/3 of them will become
the Remnant of all Israel.
Yes, this is the second coming of Christ as prophecy has
foretold.
YET, Jesus is speaking to the Jews of the time...His Church had
not even started at this time.... He was telling the Jews what
was going to happen to them specifially.....Later in Acts 2, the
Church is born and those who believe in His Gospel will be
spared the horrors of Daniel's 70th containing "the Great
Tribulation/ Jacob's trouble.
Billy, If you are in Christ totally, then you will not have to
live through this time period. You and I will watch it from the
Messinine of Heaven.
Darby did not interpret "that Lie" as you call it.....for it was
taught prior to 1800's.
I found this in the Koinonia house archives: Grant Jeffrey has
found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of
Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers
will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation
(The citation was found in a footnote in Paul J. Alexander's The
Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, University of California Press,
Berkeley, CA, 1985, p. 210. Dr. Paul Alexander is probably the
most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early
Byzantine Church. )
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the
Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the
fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.
This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting
apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of
the sermon includes the following segment: (The English
translation of the Latin text in C.P. Caspari's Briefe,
Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten
des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelater
(Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20) was provided by Cameron Rhoades,
instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth,
TX. )
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to
the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest
they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of
our sins."
Billy, I ask you,...there are all kinds of proof that the
Rapture was preached back to Paul's days....FoDO you really
doubt the WORD of JESUS that much?
It is worth saying again.:Ephraem of Nisibis did NOT doubt.
Again a part of His sermon in the fourth century (300s)..,
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the
tribulation that is to come, andare taken to the Lord lest they
see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our
sins"
Blade
[/quote]
Pershaw!! Ephraim of Nisibis [bizniz] is that the best you can
do? It is better to go by scripture and the consensus of the
church. Paul says the last days will be perilous when men are
fierce haters of God. When Jesus says "you will be hated of all
men for My sake"
He doesn't say "immediately after those days 2/3s of Israel will
be slaughtered and only a remnant left" YOU say that.
I've shown you and you AGREE that the tribulation responds to
Jacob's trouble, the time of greatest trouble since there was a
nation. Jeremiah talks about it, he says Israel will be SAVED,
they shall be AT REST and NONE SHALL MAKE THEM AFRAID. Read it
in chapter 30.
Daniel talks about it he says St Michael will stand up for
Israel and deliver them. Read it in chapter 12.
It is the CHURCH that goes through the Great Tribulation or at
least the first 3 and 1/2 years of it, for the elect's sake it
will be shortened or no flesh would survive.
#Post#: 12661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: guest8 Date: May 5, 2020, 6:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
you said: Pershaw!! Ephraim of Nisibis [bizniz] is that the best
you can do? It is better to go by scripture and the consensus of
the church. Paul says the last days will be perilous when men
are fierce haters of God. When Jesus says "you will be hated of
all men for My sake"
Yes, Jesus was speaking directly to the Jews and they have been
hated but Anti-Semitics is making a come back after the WWII and
it will hit the Jewish Nation with a vengeance. We have only
seen the tip of the iceburg concerning the hatred for the Jews
of the world.
Billy, It appears, that no matter what proof I give you, you
close your eyes and ears each time and will not research it for
yourself if what I am saying is true...Here you are breaking a
commandment of GOD......But it seems you really do not care.
Blade
#Post#: 12682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 6, 2020, 3:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it
is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in
every case what the bible says.
Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their
homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St
michael will stand up and they will be delivered.
The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the
Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ
rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over
into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church
must go through the Great Tribulation.
I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a
contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until
modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation
of those days the church will be gathered"
So who is it who is not researching?
#Post#: 12699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: guest8 Date: May 6, 2020, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it
is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in
every case what the bible says.[/quote]
Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet
born...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their
homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St
michael will stand up and they will be delivered.[/quote]
Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the
Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ
rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over
into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church
must go through the Great Tribulation. [/quote]
Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).
Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the
CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his
Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...
The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations
and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in
Christ but 90% are not.
The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These
believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I
am part of that Church and support Israel at all times.
If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will
agree on much we have previous disagreed on.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a
contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until
modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation
of those days the church will be gathered" [/quote]
No, Billy, you have it turned around., I can and have been
proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD
and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the
tribulation of those days". I explained this before and I would
bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs,
you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).
so sad.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
So who is it who is not researching?
[/quote]
Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off
proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....
Blade
#Post#: 12724--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 7, 2020, 5:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=879.msg12699#msg12699
date=1588782483]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it
is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in
every case what the bible says.[/quote]
Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet
born...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their
homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St
michael will stand up and they will be delivered.[/quote]
Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the
Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ
rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over
into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church
must go through the Great Tribulation. [/quote]
Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).
Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the
CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his
Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...
The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations
and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in
Christ but 90% are not.
The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These
believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I
am part of that Church and support Israel at all times.
If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will
agree on much we have previous disagreed on.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a
contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until
modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation
of those days the church will be gathered" [/quote]
No, Billy, you have it turned around., I can and have been
proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD
and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the
tribulation of those days". I explained this before and I would
bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs,
you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).
so sad.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
So who is it who is not researching?
[/quote]
Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off
proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....
Blade
[/quote]
Jesus was speaking to His disciples who are the church,
"persecuted for My name's sake..."
I'm afraid the antisemitism goes beyond brick and mortar, Luther
who was used above everybody to reform the church hated the Jews
and they were generally hated by the church.
And I say to you this idea that the Jews must go through the
tribulation is a reflection of this ingrained idea.
I say God is no longer scattering Israel He is gathering them,
He is no longer punishing them He is blessing them and will
continue to do so.
The best theologians have ALL rejected pretrib. It is just the
pop theologians. The church has always believed that the
endtimes would be perilous.
I read ALL your replies very carefully. else I would not be able
to respond to each point.
#Post#: 12730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: guest8 Date: May 7, 2020, 9:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=879.msg12699#msg12699
date=1588782483]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Jesus said you will be hated by all men for my name's sake so it
is the church. I reject your doctrinal position and show you in
every case what the bible says.[/quote]
Jesus was speaking to Jews and not the CHurch was not yet
born...
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
Yes the Jews are hated and they will be chased back to their
homeland but they will be Jeremiah says saved, Daniel says St
michael will stand up and they will be delivered.[/quote]
Billy, at least insert the scripture you are quoting from?
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
The church has been a major instrument in the persecution of the
Jews, it is ingrained in the church, the thought they are Christ
rejecters, it started with the RCC and it carried right over
into the reformation. I believe this is a reason why the church
must go through the Great Tribulation. [/quote]
Billy, Yes you are right about the Church (brick and mortar).
Ah I see the Problem you are having....It is separatig the
CHurch (brick and Mortar from the Spiritual Church of Jesus (his
Body /Bride Elect)...They are two different things...
The Church (brick and mortar) include most of the denominations
and non-denominations including the RCC. They say they are in
Christ but 90% are not.
The Spiritual Church contains the the only TRUE believers. These
believers include both races of the earth. (Gentile and Jew)..I
am part of that Church and support Israel at all times.
If you will learn to separate these two entities, you and I will
agree on much we have previous disagreed on.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
I research the bible, your pretribulation rapture doctrine is a
contrivance of men and was not the doctrine of the church until
modern times. Christ said "After [that is post] the tribulation
of those days the church will be gathered" [/quote]
No, Billy, you have ignored what proof I have given.The Pre-TRIB
Doctrine is part of the Bible, God's Word., I can and have been
proving the Rapture was actually believed in since the 100 AD
and before. You have to really be careful with the "After the
tribulation of those days". I explained this before and I would
bet you did not been read it....you are so set in your beliefs,
you will not follow the commands of Jesus /Paul in (Acts 17:11).
so sad.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12682#msg12682
date=1588752696]
So who is it who is not researching?
[/quote]
Yes who ins not researching anything.......when you through off
proof with a (BIZNIZ) comment....
Blade
[/quote]
****************Next day********************
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
Jesus was speaking to His disciples who are the church,
"persecuted for My name's sake..."
[/quote]
Your kidding right?, The disciples are not the whole Church (His
Body/Bride Elect) of Jesus. Those of us who are true believers
are also part of that Church. There are still many people who
are also true believers and they too are persecuted/oppressed
even today. It is a blessing that you and I are not in that
group being persecuted, right now that is!
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
I'm afraid the antisemitism goes beyond brick and mortar, Luther
who was used above everybody to reform the church hated the Jews
and they were generally hated by the church. [quote]
You obviously do not have idea about Luther. He had a problem
with the doctrine of 'Work before Faith = Salvation'. He had
decided that Salvation was apart from the works of a person and
only needed Faith/belief in Jesus Christ. All other beliefs of
the RCC, he retained and thereby he was as bad as the Church
during the crusades.
In fact, the letter John wrote to the Church of 'Sardis in Rev
3:1. This church through out the years has been representing the
churches that have the same characteristics and the original
Sardis church. Here Jesus (the author of all seven letters)
decribes this time period of Luther and Darby to a
tee........and He gives NOTHING they have done right! It is all
bad. His warning to them in Rev 3:3-5 to change or else....
You really need to quite listening to who ever it is you are
listening to..They are giving you bad history, etc.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
And I say to you this idea that the Jews must go through the
tribulation is a reflection of this ingrained idea.[/quote]
what ingrained idea..I see NO idea, (ingrained idea)or
otherwise that you have put forward with any type of proof..
Mainly because you have none.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
I say God is no longer scattering Israel He is gathering them,
He is no longer punishing them He is blessing them and will
continue to do so.
[/quote]
True, God scattered them in 135 AD and partially blinded them
at the same time....While He is bringing them back home to
Israel, since 1948, the partial blindness remains as evidence in
your refusal to see the truth of GOD's WORD as it is simply,
literally read.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
The best theologians have ALL rejected pretrib. It is just the
pop theologians. The church has always believed that the
endtimes would be perilous.[/quote]
No they are not....Pre-trib has been around since the 1st
century and I have proven that through God's Word (scripture)
time and time again. Yet, you continue to refuse to accept it.
Blinded yes.
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12724#msg12724
date=1588847384]
I read ALL your replies very carefully. else I would not be able
to respond to each point.
[/quote]
You may read them but you do not follow Act 17:11....or you
would find what I have said is true. so sad..
Blade
#Post#: 12798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: Billy Evmur Date: May 9, 2020, 1:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The Great Tribulation is the end time persecution that Jesus
warned us to expect. The root of the word tribulation is
trouble. As when Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Herod was
greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Troublation comes
from man, the picture is Jacob fleeing in great fear back to his
homeland with Laban in hot pursuit and with meeting Esau who had
vowed to kill him in prospect. But God was protecting Jacob.
Until you distinguish between the prophecies that deal with
Israel's FALL and the prophecies that deal with Israel's RISE
you will continue to jumble up prophecy.
#Post#: 12800--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: guest8 Date: May 9, 2020, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12798#msg12798
date=1589006294]
The Great Tribulation is the end time persecution that Jesus
warned us to expect. The root of the word tribulation is
trouble. As when Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Herod was
greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Troublation comes
from man, the picture is Jacob fleeing in great fear back to his
homeland with Laban in hot pursuit and with meeting Esau who had
vowed to kill him in prospect. But God was protecting Jacob.
Until you distinguish between the prophecies that deal with
Israel's FALL and the prophecies that deal with Israel's RISE
you will continue to jumble up prophecy.
[/quote]
So you are basing your salvation on a theory that GOD will save
all ISrael, all those Jews who have lived....Does this include,
Esau, Ishmael, etc...
Blade
Whatever "ALL" means it certainly doesn't mean only a 1/3rd. I
am happy to let the Lord decide about Esau and Ishmael, I don't
believe they are damned. On the other hand it is certain that
Judas Iscariot was not saved, he is called the son of perdition.
Paul's statement "ALL Israel will be saved" is difficult to
weigh.
#Post#: 16088--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: patrick jane Date: August 12, 2020, 7:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
;D :D
#Post#: 16124--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the church ready for the great tribulation?
By: guest8 Date: August 12, 2020, 11:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=879.msg12800#msg12800
date=1589029529]
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=879.msg12798#msg12798
date=1589006294]
The Great Tribulation is the end time persecution that Jesus
warned us to expect. The root of the word tribulation is
trouble. As when Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Herod was
greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Troublation comes
from man, the picture is Jacob fleeing in great fear back to his
homeland with Laban in hot pursuit and with meeting Esau who had
vowed to kill him in prospect. But God was protecting Jacob.
Until you distinguish between the prophecies that deal with
Israel's FALL and the prophecies that deal with Israel's RISE
you will continue to jumble up prophecy.
[/quote]
So you are basing your salvation on a theory that GOD will save
all ISrael, all those Jews who have lived....Does this include,
Esau, Ishmael, etc...
Blade
Whatever "ALL" means it certainly doesn't mean only a 1/3rd. I
am happy to let the Lord decide about Esau and Ishmael, I don't
believe they are damned. On the other hand it is certain that
Judas Iscariot was not saved, he is called the son of perdition.
Paul's statement "ALL Israel will be saved" is difficult to
weigh.
[/quote]
God said He stated Esau. I doubt that He is saved.
Blade
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