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DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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#Post#: 9540--------------------------------------------------
An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief: Comments
By: guest5 Date: January 7, 2020, 9:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I’ll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you
have no interest. This is the “Fully God and Fully Man” topic.
Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might
be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.
I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done
before, but definitely isn’t the standard back and forth that
goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we
approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means
exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the
premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of
topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to
prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?
I’ll probably give you more backstory at a later time. I’ll give
this some time to see where it goes for a little while. I’ll be
checking out your initial thoughts from the background for at
least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy
theory or something, of course, maybe i’m The only one that even
likes the idea, lol.
#Post#: 9543--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: patrick jane Date: January 7, 2020, 11:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jon Wood link=topic=729.msg9540#msg9540
date=1578455155]
I’ll get it out of the way so you can read something else if you
have no interest. This is the “Fully God and Fully Man” topic.
Well... at its heart, this is that. You might wonder what might
be different, this is old stomping ground for many of you.
I want to play with the concept in a way that may have been done
before, but definitely isn’t the standard back and forth that
goes on day in and day out for people like us. What if we
approach this by getting the hard part out of the way? It means
exactly what you think that means. What if we work from the
premise being granted that Jesus is God? Now, what sort of
topics and biblical passages do we get into in now trying to
prove to someone that he was genuinely a man? Fun, no?
I’ll probably give you more backstory at a later time. I’ll give
this some time to see where it goes for a little while. I’ll be
checking out your initial thoughts from the background for at
least a little while. Maybe we can come up with some new crazy
theory or something, of course, maybe i’m The only one that even
likes the idea, lol.
[/quote]Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering
this for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but
with the KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but
He had the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He
performed many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man
have called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone
and send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and
I understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict
Himself". Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of
participation on this thread.
#Post#: 9549--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: patrick jane Date: January 8, 2020, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[move]Jon Wood Rocks[/move]
#Post#: 9550--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: guest5 Date: January 8, 2020, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=729.msg9543#msg9543
date=1578462094]
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this
for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the
KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had
the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed
many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have
called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and
send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I
understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself".
Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on
this thread.
[/quote]
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not
focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity
is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny.
I don’t think I’m consciously trying to bring up the “what
degree of omnipotence” thing. I’m trying to work against the
grain to see if we notice anything different.
Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while,
as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who
only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch
“humanity” and “deity”, the guy currently only believes that
Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they don’t
know how to express them?
#Post#: 9551--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: patrick jane Date: January 8, 2020, 12:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jon Wood link=topic=729.msg9550#msg9550
date=1578506359]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=729.msg9543#msg9543
date=1578462094]
Sounds good Jon, thank you for posting here and offering this
for discussion. In my mind I picture Jesus as a man but with the
KNOWLEDGE of God. Yes, He pooped and had bad teeth but He had
the Wisdom and the words of God while in the earth. He performed
many miracles with many witnesses. Could Jesus the man have
called down lightning, I say yes. Could He smite someone and
send them to hell? I believe if Jesus CHOSE to He could, and I
understand the whole concept of "God cannot contradict Himself".
Very interesting Jon and I hope we get lots of participation on
this thread.
[/quote]
I find it interesting already that it seems difficult to not
focus toward deity. It seems so deeply rooted in us that deity
is the concept we are looking to confirm or deny.
I don’t think I’m consciously trying to bring up the “what
degree of omnipotence” thing. I’m trying to work against the
grain to see if we notice anything different.
Think of this method of approach, at least for a little while,
as you would trying to show the deity of Jesus to someone who
only accepts his humanity (we see it everyday). Now switch
“humanity” and “deity”, the guy currently only believes that
Jesus is God. Where might their concerns be? Even if they don’t
know how to express them?
[/quote]My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man?
Meaning, did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut?
We know that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did
Jesus experience the same things I experience and the answer is
yes, He did.
Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did
Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or
any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I
mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could
Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of
history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can
only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at
the same time.
#Post#: 9552--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: guest5 Date: January 8, 2020, 1:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=729.msg9551#msg9551
date=1578507157]
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning,
did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know
that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus
experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes,
He did.
Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did
Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or
any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I
mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could
Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of
history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can
only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at
the same time.
[/quote]
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full
expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and
anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was
at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the
addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing
the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a
small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts
about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for
God. A price yes, pain yes, I’m not so sure it required humanity
other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a
man before he was born.
*See, weird huh? Now, it’s going to be hard for me to be
consistent at this and I won’t have an explanation for
everything, because it’s a relatively new idea I’ve sunk only a
small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe
being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply
was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*
#Post#: 9556--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: patrick jane Date: January 8, 2020, 10:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jon Wood link=topic=729.msg9552#msg9552
date=1578510827]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=729.msg9551#msg9551
date=1578507157]
My concerns would be - did Jesus suffer as a human man? Meaning,
did He deal with sore feet or suffer from a deep cut? We know
that He did, making Him fully human indeed. Again, did Jesus
experience the same things I experience and the answer is yes,
He did.
Thoughts, on the other hand, are where the differences lay. Did
Jesus, as a man being fully human, experience doubt in faith or
any other human emotion? Yes, He wept. At the same time and I
mean at exactly the same time as He was a man weeping, could
Jesus have called on His divinity to change the course of
history or change the course of time. I believe He could. We can
only imagine what it might be like to be man and God Almighty at
the same time.
[/quote]
Why would the ability to experience pain be a factor in a full
expression of humanity? If God has emotions such as love and
anger, even prior to walking the Earth as Jesus, surely he was
at least capable of feeling pain to some degree, why would the
addition of physical pain require being fully human? Allowing
the burden of physical pain to be an inconvenience for such a
small time as compared to an eternity that He had no doubts
about (because he brought it about) is a small price to pay for
God. A price yes, pain yes, I’m not so sure it required humanity
other than form. If emotions made Jesus a man, then Jesus was a
man before he was born.
*See, weird huh? Now, it’s going to be hard for me to be
consistent at this and I won’t have an explanation for
everything, because it’s a relatively new idea I’ve sunk only a
small amount of thought in prior to posting, on top of it maybe
being impossible to apply in certain situations. Lol, my reply
was kinda cringey to write, but it was kinda fun.*
[/quote]Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as
an earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the
suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced
every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His
faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth
as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as
much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy
Spirit and the information in God's words.
#Post#: 9562--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: guest5 Date: January 9, 2020, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=729.msg9556#msg9556
date=1578543913]
Pain and suffering is only experienced in the earth as an
earthly being, whether animal or human. The pain and the
suffering that Jesus experienced is real and He experienced
every human experience, emotional or not. Jesus had doubt in His
faith, as we do. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the earth
as a man and God as a man. I can make perfect sense of this as
much as anyone possibly can with discernment from the Holy
Spirit and the information in God's words.
[/quote]
Now, we’ve hit a point that I’m not sure that I understand how
Jesus could be fully God in his moments of doubt. Things like
that are what this whole idea is about really.
Since you hold to Him being both fully God and Fully man, please
explain what you can from both perspectives. It’s something I’ve
never understood.
#Post#: 9564--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: guest8 Date: January 9, 2020, 6:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jon Wood link=topic=729.msg9540#msg9540
date=1578455155]
You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that
Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do
we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was
genuinely a man? Fun, no?"
What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one
topic...
To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is
"Fully" Human, a man.
Blade
#Post#: 9565--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Experimental Approach to a Long Accepted Belief
By: guest8 Date: January 9, 2020, 6:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=729.msg9564#msg9564
date=1578615963]
[quote author=Jon Wood link=topic=729.msg9540#msg9540
date=1578455155]
You said:"What if we work from the premise being granted that
Jesus is God? Now, what sort of topics and biblical passages do
we get into in now trying to prove to someone that he was
genuinely a man? Fun, no?"
What a topic....One could go bananas thinking about this one
topic...
To answer your question: He was born of woman, therefore HE is
"Fully" Human, a man.
Blade
[/quote]
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