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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 7928--------------------------------------------------
The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest58 Date: September 13, 2019, 3:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the
meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their
mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of
Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.
Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the
verse into previously accepted definitions. No one is without a
personal pov, a bias toward one truth or another... To claim to
be above and beyond eisegesis is to claim to be 100% speaking
the word of GOD, truly beyond a personal mindset and all
personal ideological filters.
#Post#: 7993--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest8 Date: September 18, 2019, 8:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg7928#msg7928
date=1568406154]
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the
meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their
mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of
Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.
Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the
verse into previously accepted definitions. No one is without a
personal pov, a bias toward one truth or another... To claim to
be above and beyond eisegesis is to claim to be 100% speaking
the word of GOD, truly beyond a personal mindset and all
personal ideological filters.
[/quote
[shadow=blue,left]Which is why one needs to interpret by
following rules of the road.
I read the Bible Literally, Historically, gramatically, etc.
Lets take your favorite...Romans 8:29..(KJV).."For whom he did
foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
"For whom" is talking about Mankind/
"He" is speaking of GOD/
"He also did predestinate": Jesus did something extra here other
than just telling us he knew us in the past. He predestinated
those of us who HE chose with no reason given and no number of
people given.
I'll stop there. God's Word is written for a small child's mind
to wrap around but deep enough for the best scholars to study
for years.
How great is He that He can take a subject, let us say Paul.
Here GOd takes a Saul, a hater of Jewish people, had
commissioned a job where He would kille many of them... On the
road, a white light appeared and blinded Saul...Through
subsequent scenes, Saul became Paul, the greatest of all
apologist and the Apostle to both Jew and gentile.
When Paul spoke, he spoke the words GOD inspired him to write.
Through Paul, GOD's words tells us about Paul himself wile at
the same time tells us the story of the Bible. The story of two
marriages ending in everlasting life.
Blade [/shadow]
#Post#: 13029--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest116 Date: May 17, 2020, 1:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I argued against the use of exegesis as a form of finding an
understanding of scriptures when in seminary. I did not feel
the method taught allowed a full examination of scriptures that
could allow an understanding of them. I am glad others feel
this was scammish in nature.
#Post#: 13037--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest58 Date: May 17, 2020, 12:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg7993#msg7993
date=1568856551][font=Verdana] He predestinated those of us who
HE chose with no reason given...[/font][/quote]
This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there
was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE
liked the election of only some and not others.
Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS
reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends
upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a
blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly
heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being
created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from
Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is
heretical from one point of view or another.
PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but
it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find
in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the
surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it
is a chore.
#Post#: 13043--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest8 Date: May 17, 2020, 6:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg13037#msg13037
date=1589734812]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg7993#msg7993
date=1568856551][font=Verdana] He predestinated those of us who
HE chose with no reason given...[/font][/quote]
This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there
was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE
liked the election of only some and not others.
Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS
reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends
upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a
blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly
heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being
created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from
Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is
heretical from one point of view or another.
PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but
it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find
in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the
surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it
is a chore.
[/quote]
You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not
others."
Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and
dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no
different.
Have a good day.
Blade
#Post#: 16333--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: patrick jane Date: August 16, 2020, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
flim flam man
#Post#: 16348--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest58 Date: August 16, 2020, 11:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg13043#msg13043
date=1589759083]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg13037#msg13037
date=1589734812]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg7993#msg7993
date=1568856551] He predestinated those of us who HE chose with
no reason given...[/quote]
This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there
was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE
liked the election of only some and not others.
Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we can know what HIS
reason was by HIS later day revelation? That the reason depends
upon our having had a pre-earth existence is also not a
blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is highly
heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our being
created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin from
Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today is
heretical from one point of view or another.
PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but
it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find
in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the
surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it
is a chore.
[/quote]
You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not
others."
Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and
dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no
different.
Have a good day.Blade[/quote]
Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends
itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??)
misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote, [quote]"This is a
huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no
reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked
the election of only some and not others."[/quote] clearly
refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so
you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a
rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse
Calvinism!
Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that
there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up
from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to
hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue
that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that
way', be my guest!
Your statement with pompous disdain also rejects all the
hundreds of places in the bible in which GOD has written about
what HE likes and loves and what HE dislikes and hates... Surely
we can extrapolate from these revelations by the leading of the
Spirit to know that HE does NOT hate nor love arbitrarily but
has a good solid reasons so any good solid reason (such as: our
predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our
faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our
faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.
#Post#: 16378--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest8 Date: August 16, 2020, 11:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg13043#msg13043
date=1589759083]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg13037#msg13037
date=1589734812]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg7993#msg7993
date=1568856551] He predestinated those of us who HE chose with
no reason given...[/quote]
This is a huge step up from the Calvinist position that there
was no reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE
liked the election of only some and not others.[/quote]
Yes, but He did say in John 3:16 that anyone who believed in HIM
would have have everlasting life. How He reconciles those two
parts, I have no idea but any perfectly willing (through) my
free-will to let Him figure it out...This question is far above
my pay grade so to speak.
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]Is it really such a blasphemy to think that we
can know what HIS reason was by HIS later day revelation? That
the reason depends upon our having had a pre-earth existence is
also not a blasphemy against HIS goodness even though it is
highly heretical in light of orthodoxy's commitment to both our
being created on earth and to the blasphemy of our inherited sin
from Adam. Heresy is against church doctrine so every sect today
is heretical from one point of view or another.[/quote]
Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that mankind can be on
some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is the same arrogance
that Lucifer presented before His fall.
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]PS
Your choice of font and the shadow box is highly distinctive but
it is also almost unreadable. It is to your credit that I find
in your thoughts the reason to force myself to dig beneath the
surface details of appearance to understand the message...but it
is a chore.
[/quote]
I fixed the shadow bow problems. These are left over from the
days when the background was different. At that time, They
showed up well. Am in the process of changing them, when I can
find them.
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
You said: "except HE liked the election of only some and not
others."
Usually when someone tells me they know what GOD likes and
dislikes, it is time to quite speaking with them.....You are no
different.
Have a good day.Blade[/quote]
I did not say who he dislikes or likes but rather quoted His
WORDs from the Bible...
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends
itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??)
misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote, [quote]"This is a
huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no
reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked
the election of only some and not others."[/quote] clearly
refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so
you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a
rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse
Calvinism!
Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that
there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up
from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to
hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue
that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that
way', be my guest!/quote]
I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows ,
etc. All I can do is give you His words over those of the
book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
Your statement with pompous disdain also rejects all the
hundreds of places in the bible in which GOD has written about
what HE likes and loves and what HE dislikes and hates... Surely
we can extrapolate from these revelations by the leading of the
Spirit to know that HE does NOT hate nor love arbitrarily but
has a good solid reasons so any good solid reason (such as: our
predestination was based upon our free will choice to put our
faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as rejecting to put our
faith in HIM as a liar and a false god) must be considered.
[/quote]
Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith
in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard.
Blade
#Post#: 16384--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest58 Date: August 17, 2020, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that
mankind can be on some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is
the same arrogance that Lucifer presented before His
fall.[/quote] How can the time when we were created put us on an
equal plane with Christ, our God? He is the creator, we the
created...there is no way that the timing of when He created us
can ever make us Godly and on an equal plane with Him! Your
logic is broken... It seems to me that being in HIS image is
much more of an equality with Him than the timing of our
creation.
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends
itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??)
misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote, [quote]"This is a
huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no
reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked
the election of only some and not others."[/quote] clearly
refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so
you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a
rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse
Calvinism!
Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that
there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up
from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to
hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue
that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that
way', be my guest![/quote]
I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows ,
etc. All I can do is give you His words over those of the
book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.[/quote] Blade I just
pointed out your misrepresentations of me and my belief. You
have ignored this.
You may explain how you came to misunderstand PCE or you may try
to develop how your interpretation fits my PCE but to ignore
such accusations is bad form on every debate forum, especially a
forum of Christian pov, as it makes the misrepresentations a
slander and shows a lack of moral commitment.
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
...such as: our predestination was based upon our free will
choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as
rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god)
must be considered.
[/quote]
Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith
in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard. Blade
[/quote] To contrast faith in Christ for our salvation with the
reason we were chosen to be elect or to be passed over for
election is really illogical.
And to accuse me of disregarding any scripture without any proof
or reference is another slander. Hard to stop when you are on a
roll, eh...
#Post#: 16398--------------------------------------------------
Re: The exegesis flim flam...
By: guest8 Date: August 17, 2020, 11:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16384#msg16384
date=1597679752]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]Yes, it is Blasphemy to even contemplate that
mankind can be on some plane of level with Jesus Christ. It is
the same arrogance that Lucifer presented before His
fall.[/quote] How can the time when we were created put us on an
equal plane with Christ, our God? He is the creator, we the
created...there is no way that the timing of when He created us
can ever make us Godly and on an equal plane with Him! Your
logic is broken... It seems to me that being in HIS image is
much more of an equality with Him than the timing of our
creation.
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
Once again you have proven that your animosity to PCE lends
itself to knee jerk reactions caused by a (wilful? culpable??)
misinterpretation of what I wrote. My quote, [quote]"This is a
huge step up from the Calvinist position that there was no
reason for our election (it was UNconditional) except HE liked
the election of only some and not others."[/quote] clearly
refers to Calvinists as knowing what GOD likes or dislikes ! so
you should be joining me in castigatening them, not basing a
rejection of my work on such a misconception that I endorse
Calvinism!
Now, the essence of what I wrote was that your assertion that
there was no reason given for our predestination is a step up
from the Calvinist assertion that the predestination of some to
hell before their creation pleased HIM. If you want to argue
that 'no reason' is NOT better than 'HE liked it to be that
way', be my guest![/quote]
I do not even pretend to think that I know what He does, knows ,
etc. All I can do is give you His words over those of the
book, manual you get your PCE Manual from.[/quote] Blade I just
pointed out your misrepresentations of me and my belief. You
have ignored this.
You may explain how you came to misunderstand PCE or you may try
to develop how your interpretation fits my PCE but to ignore
such accusations is bad form on every debate forum, especially a
forum of Christian pov, as it makes the misrepresentations a
slander and shows a lack of moral commitment.
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=620.msg16378#msg16378
date=1597640273]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=620.msg16348#msg16348
date=1597593781]
...such as: our predestination was based upon our free will
choice to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth OR as
rejecting to put our faith in HIM as a liar and a false god)
must be considered.
[/quote]
Don't agree with this...All we really have to do is have faith
in Him according to those very scriptures you disregard. Blade
[/quote] To contrast faith in Christ for our salvation with the
reason we were chosen to be elect or to be passed over for
election is really illogical.
And to accuse me of disregarding any scripture without any proof
or reference is another slander. Hard to stop when you are on a
roll, eh...
[/quote]
If giving you the word of GOD (his authority) is slandering you,
ok.....He tells us in many places. In Romans 8:29-30. GOD's word
is specific. If your manuals/books for your PCE theology does
not have these then I suggest you change books. I have nothing
against you or your Theology....I compare your PCE Bible ( I use
that word lightly here) with the WORD of GOD that has not
changed in over 400 years. One that agrees 99.9% with
manuscripts that did not come out of Alexandria. I consider it
as GOD's WORD.........
If you want to discredit scriptures that state "election" , it
is ok with me...I try to tell every one that "Free WIll" is also
mentioned....in John 3:16..How GOD reconcile these two, I have
no idea but I have faith enough that He does...
Its not about you or me,,,,,,TED....It is all about Jesus and
His WORD....
Have a great day and I hope you change your mind that I was
trying to slander you.
Blade
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