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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 6529--------------------------------------------------
RETURN VERSES
By: guest58 Date: June 21, 2019, 1:39 pm
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1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now
returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Well, to
return, one must have been there before, at least, according to
the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would
be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at
one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from
HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent,
the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion.
Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some
apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It
is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended
for every new convert in every age since.
Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us
believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from
Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are
conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from
Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at
our birth.
I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter
1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope...
Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when
did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those
earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or
rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception.
And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to
just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a
preconception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that
time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to
obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being
born in Christ (begotten) again.
#Post#: 6542--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: guest58 Date: June 22, 2019, 4:04 pm
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That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth
existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is
just as possible that our being created on earth bias has taken
over as the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted
to infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of
our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine
suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not
recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.
Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life:
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a
prophet to the nations." Everyone when they first read this
says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the
womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this
but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is
rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious
that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to
ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in
HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine...that
is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the
meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine...
That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as
something else for centuries means that you can read them and
never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can
you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence
though the best will mention it. Like Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn
back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to
Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The
wicked are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven.
The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV,
just not here in this verse.
TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shűb - shoob
A primitive root; to turn back
to return, turn back
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back
English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget
God.
Berean Study Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
New American Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget
God.
IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of
language indicates that they were there before but left. We have
humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there. We
also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of
the kingdom are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the
people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil,
Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown? And sown
cannot mean to be created as the devil does this sowing also and
he can't create people. Does this verse refer to the moving of
people from Sheol attested to by Ps 9:17 and Psalm 139:11-15?
How can it be when orthodoxy has already declares it means
something else and cannot be a reference hint to our pce. And we
got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the
fact of PCE?) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The
wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that
forget God. ignoring to mention it was a return to where they
were before.
Now if there were only two or three verses like this ordinary
hermeneutics demands that they be accepted as a witness but what
if there were in fact dozens, all suppressed? People generally
are not willing to do the work to parse the verses to see if a
hint could be hidden in scripture even if I provide them - just
too many spilling apples!!
#Post#: 6543--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: guest58 Date: June 22, 2019, 5:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Death is a Return:
While I have read all the interpretations of how our deaths
being called a return to GOD does not mean we came from HIM in
some pre-existent way, I think that this interpretation is
forced onto the verses by a preconceived need for us to be
created on earth. Without the bias, no one would think twice
about using return in these verses as a "going back to where we
came from."
Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send,
hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening
again.”
Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and
naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is
planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's
womb or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where
he came from, ie, Sheol. If it does not mean that, what else can
it mean? Certainly not the "GOD's illogical analogy" of the
Pulpit Commentary Verse 21. [quote] And said, Naked came I out
of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither. There is
some difficulty in the word "thither," since no man returns to
his mother's womb (John 3:4), at death or otherwise. The
expression must not be pressed. It arises out of the analogy,
constantly felt and acknowledged, between "mother" earth and a
man's actual mother… [/quote]
Better is Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
naked shall I return thither; not into his mother's womb in a
literal sense, which was impossible, John 3:4, but to the earth,
and to the dust of it, Genesis 3:19, pointing to it with his
finger, on which he now lay; meaning that he should go to the
place appointed for him, the grave, the house of all living, Job
30:23, and so the Targum here has it...
using those well established scholars of the Holy Spirit, the
Jewish commentaries, as his resource.
If he is only talking of becoming dust again, what about his
spirit, the alive part of him that will be resurrected some day?
Do you think his decaying body was more important to him as his
identity, his "I", than his spirit? Do you talk that way about
your clothes? But even to accept this as Gill would have us
believe, does not answer the return of our spirits to GOD at
death:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it
was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. You know
what I think of this verse. It supplies a description of what
can happen to a person's spirit after death, which part was not
so plain in the previous reference to Job.
The body returns to being basic elements: dust, as it was, that
state it was in before it was alive; and this person's spirit
returns to GOD, that state it was in before it was alive.
Therefore, “gave it” must mean “gave it life - sent it to live”
rather than “gave it existence - created it then”. “Unto GOD”
must mean “to the place - state where THEy are.”
If the spirit did not exist before conception, then it could not
return anywhere, that is, “unto GOD”. It would have never been
there before. Only with preconception existence can a spirit
return to be with GOD, without making “return” mean something
else.
#Post#: 6546--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: guest8 Date: June 22, 2019, 7:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=555.msg6543#msg6543
date=1561241008]
Death is a Return:
While I have read all the interpretations of how our deaths
being called a return to GOD does not mean we came from HIM in
some pre-existent way, I think that this interpretation is
forced onto the verses by a preconceived need for us to be
created on earth. Without the bias, no one would think twice
about using return in these verses as a "going back to where we
came from."
Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send,
hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening
again.”
Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and
naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is
planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's
womb or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where
he came from, ie, Sheol. If it does not mean that, what else can
it mean? Certainly not the "GOD's illogical analogy" of the
Pulpit Commentary Verse 21. [quote] And said, Naked came I out
of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither. There is
some difficulty in the word "thither," since no man returns to
his mother's womb (John 3:4), at death or otherwise. The
expression must not be pressed. It arises out of the analogy,
constantly felt and acknowledged, between "mother" earth and a
man's actual mother… [/quote]
Better is Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
naked shall I return thither; not into his mother's womb in a
literal sense, which was impossible, John 3:4, but to the earth,
and to the dust of it, Genesis 3:19, pointing to it with his
finger, on which he now lay; meaning that he should go to the
place appointed for him, the grave, the house of all living, Job
30:23, and so the Targum here has it...
using those well established scholars of the Holy Spirit, the
Jewish commentaries, as his resource.
If he is only talking of becoming dust again, what about his
spirit, the alive part of him that will be resurrected some day?
Do you think his decaying body was more important to him as his
identity, his "I", than his spirit? Do you talk that way about
your clothes? But even to accept this as Gill would have us
believe, does not answer the return of our spirits to GOD at
death:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it
was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. You know
what I think of this verse. It supplies a description of what
can happen to a person's spirit after death, which part was not
so plain in the previous reference to Job.
The body returns to being basic elements: dust, as it was, that
state it was in before it was alive; and this person's spirit
returns to GOD, that state it was in before it was alive.
Therefore, “gave it” must mean “gave it life - sent it to live”
rather than “gave it existence - created it then”. “Unto GOD”
must mean “to the place - state where THEy are.”
If the spirit did not exist before conception, then it could not
return anywhere, that is, “unto GOD”. It would have never been
there before. Only with preconception existence can a spirit
return to be with GOD, without making “return” mean something
else.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]don't know how you do it.I would be terrified
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 6570--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: guest58 Date: June 23, 2019, 12:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=555.msg6546#msg6546
date=1561249806]
[shadow=blue,left]don't know how you do it.I would be terrified
Blade[/shadow][/quote]
Well I do know what you mean...though I was not so terrified as
angry 35 yrs ago when this was all presented to me. I was still
a somewhat new Christian and as yet unrepentant but looking at
Christianity more than anywhere else for the truth... But the
calling of the Spirit to accept it was immense and now I have
the help to go public.
#Post#: 16322--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: patrick jane Date: August 16, 2020, 9:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Interesting
#Post#: 18574--------------------------------------------------
Re: RETURN VERSES
By: patrick jane Date: October 9, 2020, 7:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=555.msg16322#msg16322
date=1597587451]
Interesting
[/quote] ;D
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