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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 5903--------------------------------------------------
Only Their Body Was New
By: guest58 Date: May 24, 2019, 6:00 pm
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ONLY THEIR BODY WAS NEW
These miscellaneous Scriptures in the next category are those
that I feel can be interpreted as bearing witness to the
pre-conception existence of some persons. That is why I've
called it: Only Their Body was New.
Psalm 139:15,16 ( NIV) My (David) frame was not hidden from YOU
when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together
in the depths of the earth, YOUR eyes saw my unformed body. All
the days ordained for me were written in YOUR book before one of
them came to be.
Any bets on whether or not the secret place is synonymous with
the depths of the earth? Must be eh? So then, David says that he
was created in the depths of the Earth. Of course, you know that
the depths of the Earth are also known as the grave, ie, the
place of (at least part of) our after-life.
In other words, David's secret place has to be somewhere in
Sheol.[1] I'd also say that from verse 16, he seems to be a
little bit in favour of the doctrine of the complete
predestination (preplanning) of everyone of our days on Earth.
And what do you think he meant by unformed body? According to
PCE theology, each of us has such a body, but it’s not this
earthly formed one. It’s the one GOD created us with in
Paradise.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child,
we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I
knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as
saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the
time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean
something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use
of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they
exist, no matter how much you know about them.
You must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about.
These are two different things.
For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus.
This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12, where
Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not... to the
five foolish virgins.
He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them.
Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a
mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD
knowing about Jeremiah. Since I believe that GOD knows about
this difference, then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah
before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me
that Jeremiah existed before his conception.
If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception
existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was
revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling
Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the
womb, that is, before he was created?
But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience.[2]
Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the
Jews knew about GOD's omniscience[3] long before his time.
Well, anything but his pre-conception existence eh!!!
Let me ask you this. In your opinion, just what would GOD have
to say to Jeremiah to reveal that he existed before he was made
in the womb? What would HE have to say so that Jeremiah could
put it in the Book in such a way that it would not give away any
secrets for 2600 years?
Just because we forget does not mean that we do not exist.
Nobody remembers their very early years or every moment in life.
We willingly accept the witness of others regarding the follies
of our early years that we do not remember. When we have People
of this calibre saying that They knew us[4] way back then,
surely we should accept such a witness too!
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that
cometh into the world. Boy, this one sure gets a lot of
rearranging in the newer translations! For example:
NIV has it: the true light that gives light to every man was
coming into the world.
Margin: This was the true light that gives light to every man
who comes into the world. which contains BOTH interpretations
that the light came into the world or every man comes into the
world.
NASB has:There was the true light which, coming into the world,
enlightens every man.
Margin:[5] Which enlightened every man coming into the world.
Amplified has it: There it was; the true Light (was then) coming
into the world - the genuine, perfect, stead-fast Light - that
illuminates every person.
Living has it: Later on, the One who is the true Light arrived
to shine on everyone coming into the world.
New Jerusalem has it: The Word was the true light that
enlightens all men; and he was coming into the world.
The New English has: The real light which enlightens every man
was then coming into the world.
Margin: The light was in being, light absolute, enlightening
every man born into the world.[6]
RSV has: The true light that enlightens every man was coming
into the world.
Finally, Wuest(#25) has: “He, the aforementioned Word, was the
light, the genuine light which enlightens spiritually every man
as it comes into the universe.”
Just goes to show you how much you can trust your Bible![7]
Well, I suppose it really cannot mean that every man comes into
the world. How can we tell? You must have guessed already!
That's right! It just does not match our old presuppositions
regarding the creation of the spirit. Therefore “cometh into the
world” has to modify the pre-existent Light, not every
pre-existent man. Personally, I prefer every pre-existent man,
just like it so plainly says.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did
sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? From
this verse, it becomes blatantly obvious that the disciples
believed that this blind [8] man could have sinned sometime
before his birth and that, as a chastisement for that sin, he
was born blind. [9] I think that this is a very straight forward
statement that shows that most, [10] if not all of the disciples
believed in pre-conception existence.
It is also very debatable whether Jesus' answer is a
condemnation of their belief, as it is usually thought to be, or
whether He is teaching them a fourth[11] reason for suffering on
Earth, that is, that this pre-existent man was sent here so that
through the healing of his physical infirmity GOD would be
glorified.
In other words, GOD had sent this person to live blind from his
birth so that his healing would be a source of grace to the
fallen elect in that, first, a living witness to Jesus' divinity
would result from the healing of his blindness, and second, so
that this question, with all its implications could be recorded
in the Scripture, so that God could do something really special
with this truth later on.
We must remember that this incident took place close to the end
of Jesus' ministry, and it seems rather hard to accept that He
would not have known all along that they held this view, and
would not have corrected it long before this time, if it really
was in error.
Just how can we reconcile such an “errant” situation with
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is
given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it is not given. Are we to believe that they knew
some secret heavenly truths as well as some secret unheavenly
heresies?
We must also wonder where the disciples, being Jews, obtained
this belief. I've never heard of any orthodox Jews who believed
in pre-conception existence at any time in their history. Why
then would the majority, or at least the best of the disciples,
believe it unless, of course, Jesus was teaching it to them?[12]
Another question worth asking is whether John ever changed his
mind about pre-conception existence being the truth? Isn't it a
little peculiar that of all the scriptural references to pce
we'll look at, the three synoptics contribute about four while
John, in his gospel, letters and revelation contributes about
thirty?
It should also be noted that John's writings were the last of
the New Testament, that is, that he was probably aware by that
time that the return was not going to be quick, that is,
soon.[13] We also know (Matthew 13:11) that Jesus taught the
disciples things that He did not teach the general public. It
would go without saying that if He taught them this doctrine, He
would also forbid its proclamation, a situation very similar to
Matthew 17:9 And as THEy came down from the mountain, Jesus
charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son
of man be risen again from the dead., and His forbidding Paul to
disclose the things he learned in Paradise.
It stands to reason that if they knew the same heavenly truths
that Jesus showed Paul, they would not be allowed to proclaim
them while Paul was forbidden to do so.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the
world. 18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I
also sent them into the world. 17:23 ...Thou ...hast loved them
as Thou hast loved Me. 24 for Thou lovedst Me before the
foundation of the world.[14]
Jesus gives us four equations in these parts of His prayer.
1 - The disciples are not of the world as He is not of the
world.
2 - The disciples have been sent by Him as He has been sent by
the Father (verse 18).
3 - The disciples have been sent into the world as He as been
sent into the world (verse 18).
4 - The disciples have been loved by the Father as Jesus has
been loved by the Father (verse 23).
After these four equations, Jesus adds another part on to His
side of the equation, to wit:
5 - That it was before the foundation of the world that He was
loved by the Father (verse 24). In other words, Jesus introduces
the element of time or pre-existence into the four equations.
Now, according to the fourth equation, the disciples were loved
the same way, that is, time, which, to my mind, means fellowship
together in love (that is, pre-conception existence) in Paradise
with the Father before the foundation of this world.
Jesus was sent into the world before He was conceived. I think
the third equation demands that we accept the same of the
disciples.
Jesus was not of the world because He was from Paradise, His
citizenship was from another place, which place He was in before
He was conceived in the womb. I think that the first equation
demands that we accept the same of the disciples.
[I do not believe that Jesus was speaking of the sin of
worldliness in verse 16 because, first the context seems to
demand a physical world, the disciples were not free of the sin
of worldliness at this time, as is proven by the many examples
the Scriptures have recorded for us. For example, we have the
desertion in the garden; Peter's incident with the high priest's
servant; Peter's lies at the trial; the desertion at the
crucifixion; the hiding in fear; Thomas' refusal to believe;
some disciples' return to their former occupations; and Peter's
refusal to eat with the Gentile believers.
I think that these incidents show us that often after Jesus'
prayer, the disciples at the moment of trial did not follow the
Spirit, but resorted unto unity with the world and feared being
separate from “it” like Jesus was separate from “it”.
Such worldliness, although we can easily understand and identify
with their weakness, still does not approach His lack of
worldliness which would be demanded by the first equation if
that was the kind of worldliness He had in mind. Therefore, I
believe He is speaking of His and their pre-conception heavenly
citizenship and that they all came into the world from Paradise.
Of course, this would not be a new revelation to them, for by
this time the disciples had accepted the doctrine of
pre-conception existence and knew exactly what Jesus meant.]
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the
temple of My GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write
upon him the name of My GOD, and the name of the city of My GOD,
which is the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from
My GOD: Well, please take note that the New Jerusalem
(pre)exists in heaven before it comes to the Earth. Now, do you
think it's talking about bricks or people?
Revelation 11:7 The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless
pit.
Here we can see that the beast's coming is called his ascent
(undoubtedly because it is meant to be in antithesis to Christ's
comings, which are termed descents[15]). Hence, we should be
able to see that this verse connotes that this human person
existed before his coming to the Earth[16] (but in a much
different situation than Jesus).
Summary for: Only Their Body Was New.
Well then, to sum up this category, in
Psalm 139:15, David said that he was made in some unearthly
secret place.
In Jeremiah 1:5, GOD said that He knew Jeremiah before he was
formed in the womb.
John 1:9 said every man comes into the world.[17]
In John 9:2, all of the disciples believed in pre-conception
existence very near the end of Jesus' earthly ministry.
In John 17:16, Jesus equated Himself and the disciples in four
categories, each category involving His pre-existence.
Then, in Revelation 3:12, Jesus said that the New Jerusalem
pre-exists in heaven.
Finally, in Revelation 11:7, the Scriptures say that the beast
will ascend out of the bottomless pit.
Well that's six more verses, all easily explained in their most
natural sense by pre-conception theology.
Now I know that you have heard it before, but the truth usually
carries a blessing for those who hear it. Therefore, I say again
that no other theology regarding the creation of our spirits has
such plain scriptural attestation. In other words, this is the
biggest rock around, by miles!!! Can you see it yet, Matey?
Notes for: Only Their Body Was New.
1. The other world(s), synonymous with the KJV 'hell'. Paradise
is in Sheol, the other heavens are in Sheol and Tartarus is in
Sheol.
2. Isn't that a funny way to reveal omniscience anyway? Like,
if you were omniscient, would you reveal it this way? I rather
doubt it, and if it is too dumb for you, do you really think
that GOD would use it.
3. As per Psalm 139:16 (previous argument). Why not look up
“omniscience” in a theological dictionary or whatever? See how
many times this verse is put forth as showing that GOD is
omniscient. Well then, if it is not saying that HE is
omniscient, what is it saying?
4. If HE knew one of HIS children, HE had to know the rest too.
5. Hooray for the KJV and some of the new marginal
translations!!
6. I wonder where they got this one from?
7. I hope you noticed that I said “your Bible," not The Bible.
It should be noted that these translations are made by some of
the very best educated Christians around. That is what our
experts think John was trying to say! Blindness is strange
stuff!
8. It is interesting to note the typology of his being blind
from birth. Physical blindness typifies spiritual blindness,
that is, the inability (unwillingness to believe GOD) to
distinguish between the good and the evil. Since we were not
created spiritually blind, we must have become blind somewhere
along the line. By using someone who was born blind, we should
be able to see a wee witness that it took place before our
conception.
9. I know that some Jews were aware that a person could sin in
the womb (from Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled
together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus?),
but do you really think that is what they had in mind? Maybe you
are going to start? I suppose that is a step above believing
that the disciples were really stupid!
10. I'll bet that more than just one commentator, (#26) for
example, thinks that all twelve are included.
11. The first reason is our own sin, the second is deservedly
for someone else's, the third is innocently for someone else's,
the fourth is the third plus the fact that through these
sufferings, GOD is publicly glorified.
12. I believe that Christ had just begun teaching them this
doctrine, and that being the case, this is a very normal
question for anyone newly introduced to pre-conception theology.
13. And so he put in lots of testimony because he knew that
they weren't going to be here to physically testify when it
finally came time to reveal it to the public.
14. This one might get some flak because, “I have pulled it
completely out of context” or worse! Well, if I did not pull
this here elephant out into the open, it would never have been
seen. I believe it is an in-or-out of context elephant anyway,
(otherwise known as a bi-contextual loxodonta heavenlia
tooamysticalforasoma). :) Nevertheless, it might be a good idea
to check out the context yourself.
15. As per Ephesians 4:9 Now that He ascended, what is it but
that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
16. Compare Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and
is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into
perdition. (The bottomless pit is space out in space. If the
Bible is only the work of men, how did John know about the
infinity of space?)
17. And he's still saying it, in spite of the many attempts to
stop him. It's hard to keep those apostles quiet!
#Post#: 16320--------------------------------------------------
Re: Only Their Body Was New
By: patrick jane Date: August 16, 2020, 9:16 am
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Interesting
#Post#: 18572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Only Their Body Was New
By: patrick jane Date: October 9, 2020, 7:44 am
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[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=508.msg16320#msg16320
date=1597587363]
Interesting
[/quote]👍
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