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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 5631--------------------------------------------------
DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: guest58 Date: May 14, 2019, 2:16 pm
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DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part One.]
(Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been
dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by
the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been
dried in the sun too!)
It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear
the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be
accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part
of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge
of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact,
but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as
Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of
which are quoted and the exegesis dealt with next) simply
because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows
or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who
does not believe in HIM.
Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are
left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the
plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of
mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that
pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these
questions and this paradox than any other does.
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the
nations who FORGET GOD.
Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the
wicked return, all the heathen, that FORGET GOD.
We will looked at the first part of this verse later under GOING
BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to
Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second
part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees
have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text.
That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)
Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD
in only one way, that it means the rejection and putting away of
YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy warning of
eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have
previously received.
Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received
it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils
down to whether this revelation is received in this life or
whether it is received before this life as per PCE theology?
Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the
shortcomings of all the in-life theories right now because in
this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this
verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports
pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to
Sheol.
Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse
clearly supports PCE theology, that constitutes a fairly strong
witness that the time when David believed that the wicked
received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also
previous to this life.[1]
Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not
been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from
the foundations of the earth? First of all, from the context
(you could read it) we can determine that what they have known,
heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is
the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they
have received.
Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in
a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah
is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the
beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the
foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah
is not asking questions. He is giving answers.[2]
Next, we should try to determine the time when they received
this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned,
this question boils down to whether they received it during this
life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say
that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that
this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the
Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for
everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an
exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and
straightforward.
John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the
world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might
be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he
that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not
believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And
this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And
men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were
evil.
The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all,
upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that
this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is
in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine (#23) states: (the Greek
word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race,
mankind.”
And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones
living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves
the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must
include everyone since Adam.
Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we
ascribe to the words “condemned already”. I believe that we must
consider the condemnation as being already present before they
heard the gospel, which means that they would be under
condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.
In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the
condemnation of unbelieving men: they were condemned already,
ie, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them
from the condemnation they were under.[3]
Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation
that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name
of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the Person
of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this
unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not
believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?
For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth
not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard
about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted
believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?” Or
should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are
condemned already because they have refused to believe in the
Name of the only begotten Son?”
Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for
the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus
in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have
failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for
their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe
that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation,
one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the
infiniteness of HIS love.
Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if
He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to
them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means
that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love
them enough to send it.
Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on
account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with
the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret
Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?
Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the
attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that
is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they
have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.
Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads
us to another conclusion, to wit: that for there to be a refusal
to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation
of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there
must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.
Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting
revelation given to all men.
First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has
been shown to the world (ie, to Adam and his children) but some
men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief,
disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all
refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of
omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the
Light, that is, of the Son.
Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in
this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is
universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth
every man. From this verse, we can see that every person on
Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those
who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.
Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation
of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are
faced with the question as to when each and every person
received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of
GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this
question boils down to whether this revelation was received
before life began or whether it was received during this life.
I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this
revelation is received before this life begins (and is
subsequently forgotten).
The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any
unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think
that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in
this life, someone would have written “it”[4] down, or at least
remembered “it” and talked about “it” to someone else. In other
words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly
well known before He came.
Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong
indication that this revelation was given before life began in
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that
cometh into the world. If every man comes into the world, then
every man must exist before he comes into the world.[5]
Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the
revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every
person, was given before life began.
Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out
argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some
profit.
First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned
already, that is, even before He came.
Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for
faithlessness in His Name.
Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the
revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that
the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.
For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a
sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal
rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His
Name.
Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of
His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding
His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints
strongly at a pre-life revelation, and second, that John 1:9,
which says that every man comes into the world, being that it
connotes every man's preconception existence, also hints
strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.[6]
---------------------------------------------------------
Notes for: Does Everybody Know? When Did They Find Out?
1. Like if you've spotted one elephant in the bush, it's not too
hard to find another (especially when there are lots of them).
2. Very good job of hiding the answer, Isaiah! You could give a
course on "How to lay an elephant on the people, that is, give
attestation to the future revelation of our pre-conception
existence, and seal it from even the sharpest eyes".
3. According to these definitions, I believe that we can read
the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that
HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to
believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For
GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them,
but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and
those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their
souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever,
are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not
profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that
results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of
the unique Son of GOD.
When we read the verses this way, it is a lot easier to see that
before Christ incarnated to save men, men were already under
condemnation for not believing in His Name.
4. For example, that “It” is divine.
5. We can tell that John 1:9 connotes pre-conception existence
because almost every commentator rearranges this verse so that
“cometh into the world” modifies “the Light”, rather than “every
man”. If “cometh into the world” only meant birth, they could
leave it as it plainly reads, but because it means
pre-conception existence, it must be reinterpreted to fit the
prev-ailing theological theories on the creation of the spirit,
that is, it must modify Jesus because, to them, He is the only
pre-existent Person. More on John 1:9 in the next section.
6. Like, elephant tracks are usually made by elephants!
#Post#: 5632--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part Two]
By: guest58 Date: May 14, 2019, 4:47 pm
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DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
(The next one is long and is just a little harder than the last
one. Therefore, you should prepare yourself and make sure you
have enough time to get through it, probably at least twice if
you would like to understand it.)
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
truth in unrighteousness.
19 Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them:
for GOD hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of HIM from (NIV: since) the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the
things that are made, even HIS eternal power and GODHEAD: so
that they are without excuse,
21 Because that, when they knew GOD (YHWH) they glorified HIM
not as GOD, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their
knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those
things which are not convenient:
1:32 (These people) Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they
which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the
same but have pleasure in them that do them.
My first question is, does the group of persons of whom Paul is
writing include every person who will be judged or just some? To
ask it another way, are the attributes listed in these verses
true of every person who will be judged or just some?
I think most well informed Christians would agree that Paul is
writing about every person who will be judged. Romans 2:6-8[7]
seems to bear this out, for in verse 6, Paul says that GOD will
render to every man according to his deeds, and then in verses 7
and 8, he splits all men into but two groups, the saved and the
unsaved. Romans 1:16 and 18 also seem to bear this out, for
verse 18 is the antithesis of verse 16,
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for
it is the power of GOD unto salvation to every one that
believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1:18 For
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness. In verse 16, Paul writes of the entire class of
men who will be saved. Therefore, in verse 18, he must be
referring to the entire class of men who will see wrath.
Therefore, we can say with a fair degree of assurance that the
attribute of holding the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) applies
to every person who will see wrath, and we can also say that the
attributes of the ungodly in these other verses apply to every
person who will see wrath. This interpretation is again backed
up by Romans 2:6-8 (GOD) Who will render to every man according
to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But
unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. in that the
contentious cannot really be so unless they have first heard the
truth. One can not disagree with that of which one has not
heard.
Therefore, I believe that in these verses Paul is saying that
all men have received the knowledge of YHWH and an awareness of
HIS intention to judge all unrepentant evil doers.
Now having arrived at this same conclusion, once again so far as
this apology is concerned, what needs to be determined is
whether this knowledge was given before life began and is
subsequently forgotten or whether all persons receive it during
their life. I think that there are a few things which give
fairly definite indication that this knowledge was possessed
before earthly life began, and was subsequently forgotten.
First, I think that the absence of the knowledge of YHWH in
every culture that has not been evangelized bears witness that
everyone in this life does not possess this knowledge. It seems
to me that either these cultures have not received this
knowledge in this life or else there is something really weird
going on all over the world, for why would they all lie about it
when they were questioned? And why would those who get converted
later in life not expose this charade of ignorance? Surely they
must have been party to it during their younger years. Surely
they would find out about this knowledge at the same time as
everyone else!
Therefore, because I believe that the whole world could not get
it together enough to all carry on with the same lie, in all
ages, in all cultures, without even communicating with each
other, I just cannot accept this knowledge is possessed by
everyone in this life.
Well then, having eliminated the one, we are left with only the
other. This knowledge must be given and received before this
life, and forgotten.
Hark! I seem to be picking up some not so faint rumblings from
certain sectors regarding something called the Universal Witness
of Creation, that is, it is from the witness of the things that
are made (verse 20) which witness is universally received during
this life, that all persons have learned the truth which they
hold in unrighteousness, etc. Well, there may be a Universal
Witness of Creation all right, but I am not at all convinced
that it is received during this life. In fact, I can not help
but wonder where we would be at if Paul had not told us the
answer to this problem regarding how GOD can justly condemn
millions of people who seemingly never hear of HIM at all during
their lifetime?
In fact, I wonder why we have a problem with their seeming
appearance of theological ignorance if the Witness of Creation
to YHWH is so universal and blatant as some would lead us to
believe it is? Frankly, I think that you are going to have to
admit that these verses constitute a part of the revelation of
how GOD can be just and condemn millions of men, women, children
and babies[8] who appear to have never seen, heard or known of
Him during their lifetime.
I think that you will also have to admit that if these verses
(and those like them) were not in the Scriptures, you would not
know the answer to this problem yourself. But stop and consider
for a moment. Some would have us believe that everybody who is
alive knows about the very clear and blatant Witness of
Creation. If everybody knows it, why does the Bible have to
reveal it even to the Christians? Why does it have to be taught
in every Church in every generation? Breathing does not have to
be taught or revealed in the Scripture.
Everybody knows about that. But hardly anyone in this life knows
about the Universal Witness of Creation to YHWH until they read
these verses or have it “shown" to them by the Holy Spirit or by
an educated Christian.
Moreover, if there really was such a witness given to everyone
during this life, may I suggest that there would also be, at all
times, quite a few people in every nation who believe in YHWH
simply because they looked at the creation billboard and
accepted its witness that YHWH was the ONE who created it and
not any other. (In actual fact, it is always YHWH who leads us
to this Witness of Creation, and only after HE shows it to us do
we see how it bears witness to HIM.) And there would be no need
for any kind of missionary activity to proclaim the deity of
YHWH,[9] for this witness would be given to everyone twenty-four
hours of each and every day.
People would not need to learn the truth about YHWH, nor would
they need anyone else to remind them of it. Creation would be
doing that constantly, at least, every time they used one of
their senses. All people would need is the call to obey and a
reminder of their fate if they continued to refuse to believe
this Witness of Creation.
In addition to these shortcomings, the doctrine that the
Universal Witness of Creation is given in this life cannot
account for the theological ignorance of children that die
young, nor does it work for the sensually incapacitated, that
is, the blind, dumb, retarded, etc. Nor does it work when we
consider the doctrine that all men are spiritually blind and
can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the
gospel. (It says men are not blind and can see GOD without that
grace.)
It is also contradicted by the vanity of so many Hindus and
Buddhists, that spend years meditating on creation and come up
with the witness that they are god: hardly a witness to YHWH and
HIS judgement.
May I verily verily suggest that the Witness of Creation that we
are usually told about does not exist in life in such a way that
gives all unrepentant, unevangelised people sufficient
conviction to render them without excuse for their rebellion.
Now there is a Witness of Creation given in this life and it
comes in two major colours. For those who have no Christian
training or awareness it looks like this: if it is true that
creation has a Creator, that Creator must be infinitely
powerful, intelligent, and eternal, hence, divine. The Witness
of Creation in life to the uneducated in true religion goes
little further than this. This is why all religions can look at
the Witness of Creation given in this life and see testimony of
their concept of god. To the educated Christian, the Witness of
Creation comes in a different colour however, for to them,
creation bears a very strong witness to YHWH.
But Paul was not referring to this witness when he wrote Romans.
He was referring to the one that everyone received, that is, the
universal one that leaves all without any excuse of ignorance.
Other Christians, who realise the shortcomings of the doctrine
that the Witness of Creation is universally given in this life,
often argue that the knowledge of YHWH is innate or instinctive
in all persons. The trouble with this argument is that it too is
simply not backed up by reality, and in two ways.
First, some missionaries that I read about claimed to have come
across some people who did not have any ideas of any kind of
god, hence, possessing no innate knowledge of YHWH at all.
Secondly, in those persons who supposedly have some innate
knowledge of god, and as the supporters of this argument must
themselves admit, it usually goes no further than the naked fact
of a superior power of some sort, that is, a god-ness which is
almost totally undefined, what definition there is being left up
to the individual, and is miles away from an adequate knowledge
of YHWH and HIS judgement.
Thus, even if they possessed this type of innate knowledge, on
the basis of such knowledge they could hardly be charged with
the sin of forgetting about or scorning YHWH's self-attesting
revelation and warning.
Finally, in regard to those few individuals who claim to
innately have a true knowledge of YHWH, may I suggest that it
was most likely put in them in their early childhood by their
Christian cultural environment or even guardian angels, but for
those who are sure that they were born possessing such
knowledge, I believe that pre-conception existence explains that
fact quite nicely in that we do not always completely forget
everything, ie, our memory is not erased, it is just covered
over.
Therefore, although such things are buried quite deep, they are
still there. I believe that this answer is much more realistic
than affirming, against the mountain of evidence to the
contrary, that all persons are likewise born knowing.[10]
In addition to the fact that the reality we live in goes against
the interpretation that these theological truths are innate or
universally witnessed to in this life,[11] I think that these
verses go against it themselves, in that these verses must be
reinterpreted to fit such interpretations.
For example, in verse 18, “revealed” must mean much less than a
real revelation. In verse 19, the same is true of the word
“shewed” which must mean very little indeed, rather than as much
as we now know about HIM. In verse 20, “clearly seen” must be
given a very limited and unclear definition, rather than the
kind of understanding that satan and his angels have. “Being
understood by the things that are made” must mean something
between being understood at a quick glance and being understood
after careful meditation and thought about the things that were
made long before, rather than being understood through
witnessing the very creation of these things like satan and his
angels witnessed. (I am sure that they learned a lot more about
GOD from witnessing the six day creation of Genesis 1:3 to 31.)
In verse 21, “knew GOD” must mean only knew about some superior
power, rather than knowing YHWH personally and knowing that HE
is GOD (like satan and his angels did after they put out of
Paradise), and “vain” must be looked on as something each person
becomes after their rebellion in life, rather than the way
almost every person is born and, in the same vein, each child
must be looked on as being born with an innocent heart and mind,
rather than with a “reprobate mind” and a heart given over to
and darkened by sin. Finally, in verse 32, “knowing the
judgement of GOD” must be looked on as much less than the
explicit knowledge of eternal damnation which it really is. How
many persons do you know that know about their eternal
damnation? But according to this verse, everyone should have a
very clear knowledge of it, say like satan and his angels do.
Well, these Scriptures, as they plainly read, can not help but
put the Created on Earth theorists in a difficult position. They
must either reinterpret the class of men that Paul is writing
about so that it does not refer to everyone who will be judged
(that is, interpret it so that it includes only those who have
received clear testimony to YHWH in this life and have rejected
it); OR they must redefine all these attributes so that they
apply to all persons, even those who die in infancy and
ignorance.
These are the only real alternatives they have to accepting that
the only way that these verses could be true, as they plainly
read, is if all people had received this knowledge prior to
their life on Earth.
Last of all, I think Paul again bears witness that this
revelation is not received during this life, for if he thought
it was, how could he have said in 1 Corinthians 13:12: For now
we see through a glass, darkly;...now I know in part?
Are you really prepared to accept that the “clearly seen” and
“shewed” of each and every pagan constitutes much, much less
than the “through a glass darkly, - know in part” of most of the
Christian crop? f this is Paul's description of the attainment
of most Christians in the knowledge of GOD, how can he possibly
describe that which every pagan knows as “clearly seen” and
“shewed”?
To my mind, if one is prepared to accept such a contradictory
interpretation, he might as well throw his Bible away because,
as someone once said, “then there is an end of all significance
in language, and Scripture is wiped out as a definite testimony
to anything.”
Just how much more reasonable is it to realise that the “clearly
seen” revelation is the one that took place before Adam and Eve,
and that the “through a glass darkly” is the description of the
limits of the vision that the best Christians get on Earth? Much
more to my mind![12]
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were SOMETIME alienated and
enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy
and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: 23 If ye
continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved
away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which
was preached to every creature which is under heaven:
So GOD died so that we could become holy (vs. 22)! And how is
that going to be achieved? Well, through the gospel that was
preached to every creature under heaven. Wonder when this
preaching took place!??? It must have been before the
“sometime” they were alienated!
I bet it would be a drag to cling to a different gospel, say one
that has not been preached to every creature under heaven. Of
course, every gospel has an interpretation for this verse. I
guess you will just have to choose: is it hyperbole or fact?
Which one makes the most sense?
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have
known Him that is from the beginning.
I think that the translations of this verse reveal a little of
the bias of our translators, that as soon as they get a
Scripture which can not be reinterpreted to conform to their
created on Earth presuppositions, they often just add a word or
two so that it can (in the name of helping our understanding of
course!) !
What I am referring to are the words “that is”.
They are not in the Greek text.
That is why they are italicised in some Bibles. Therefore I
believe that I am much more correct than they are if I read the
verse this way: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye
have known Him from the beginning.
What more do I need to say? GOD's word or man's word: which one
are you going to take your stand on? Built on the Rock eh? Well,
I’d just make sure that it is not a man-made rock!
---------------------------------------------------------
Notes for: [Part Two]
7. Romans 2:6-8 - (GOD) Who will render to every man according
to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But
unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.
8. Wouldn't you say that the fact that babies are included
among those who will be condemned shows that the Universal
Witness of Creation that they received, was received before they
began this life?
9. In just the same way that there is no need for any
missionary activity to reveal the existence of the sun, but
there is a need for missionaries to reveal the truth about YHWH,
as Paul states in Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him
in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in
Him of whom they have not heard (in this life)?
10. It is very hard for such people to account for this innate
knowledge in themselves if everyone does not have it.
11. Of course, I have grown to the point where I am not afraid
to stand with the GOD of truth, that is, the holy GOD. That's
the whole trouble with this doctrine. Its implications are not
pretty. They don't fit in with our unholy, idolatrous fantasies
very well.
12. One more thing about the reality we live in. Did you know
that you could go to a place you have been in before you were
conceived, a real place you would remember and a place you would
call your real home? (For example, when a person dies, their
first thought is usually, I'm dead - their second is, I'm back.)
#Post#: 5633--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part Two]
By: guest8 Date: May 14, 2019, 7:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=450.msg5632#msg5632
date=1557870479]
DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
(The next one is long and is just a little harder than the last
one. Therefore, you should prepare yourself and make sure you
have enough time to get through it, probably at least twice if
you would like to understand it.)
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
truth in unrighteousness.
19 Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them:
for GOD hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of HIM from (NIV: since) the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the
things that are made, even HIS eternal power and GODHEAD: so
that they are without excuse,
21 Because that, when they knew GOD (YHWH) they glorified HIM
not as GOD, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their
knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those
things which are not convenient:
1:32 (These people) Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they
which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the
same but have pleasure in them that do them.
My first question is, does the group of persons of whom Paul is
writing include every person who will be judged or just some? To
ask it another way, are the attributes listed in these verses
true of every person who will be judged or just some?
I think most well informed Christians would agree that Paul is
writing about every person who will be judged. Romans 2:6-8[7]
seems to bear this out, for in verse 6, Paul says that GOD will
render to every man according to his deeds, and then in verses 7
and 8, he splits all men into but two groups, the saved and the
unsaved. Romans 1:16 and 18 also seem to bear this out, for
verse 18 is the antithesis of verse 16,
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for
it is the power of GOD unto salvation to every one that
believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1:18 For
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness. In verse 16, Paul writes of the entire class of
men who will be saved. Therefore, in verse 18, he must be
referring to the entire class of men who will see wrath.
Therefore, we can say with a fair degree of assurance that the
attribute of holding the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) applies
to every person who will see wrath, and we can also say that the
attributes of the ungodly in these other verses apply to every
person who will see wrath. This interpretation is again backed
up by Romans 2:6-8 (GOD) Who will render to every man according
to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But
unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. in that the
contentious cannot really be so unless they have first heard the
truth. One can not disagree with that of which one has not
heard.
Therefore, I believe that in these verses Paul is saying that
all men have received the knowledge of YHWH and an awareness of
HIS intention to judge all unrepentant evil doers.
Now having arrived at this same conclusion, once again so far as
this apology is concerned, what needs to be determined is
whether this knowledge was given before life began and is
subsequently forgotten or whether all persons receive it during
their life. I think that there are a few things which give
fairly definite indication that this knowledge was possessed
before earthly life began, and was subsequently forgotten.
First, I think that the absence of the knowledge of YHWH in
every culture that has not been evangelized bears witness that
everyone in this life does not possess this knowledge. It seems
to me that either these cultures have not received this
knowledge in this life or else there is something really weird
going on all over the world, for why would they all lie about it
when they were questioned? And why would those who get converted
later in life not expose this charade of ignorance? Surely they
must have been party to it during their younger years. Surely
they would find out about this knowledge at the same time as
everyone else!
Therefore, because I believe that the whole world could not get
it together enough to all carry on with the same lie, in all
ages, in all cultures, without even communicating with each
other, I just cannot accept this knowledge is possessed by
everyone in this life.
Well then, having eliminated the one, we are left with only the
other. This knowledge must be given and received before this
life, and forgotten.
Hark! I seem to be picking up some not so faint rumblings from
certain sectors regarding something called the Universal Witness
of Creation, that is, it is from the witness of the things that
are made (verse 20) which witness is universally received during
this life, that all persons have learned the truth which they
hold in unrighteousness, etc. Well, there may be a Universal
Witness of Creation all right, but I am not at all convinced
that it is received during this life. In fact, I can not help
but wonder where we would be at if Paul had not told us the
answer to this problem regarding how GOD can justly condemn
millions of people who seemingly never hear of HIM at all during
their lifetime?
In fact, I wonder why we have a problem with their seeming
appearance of theological ignorance if the Witness of Creation
to YHWH is so universal and blatant as some would lead us to
believe it is? Frankly, I think that you are going to have to
admit that these verses constitute a part of the revelation of
how GOD can be just and condemn millions of men, women, children
and babies[8] who appear to have never seen, heard or known of
Him during their lifetime.
I think that you will also have to admit that if these verses
(and those like them) were not in the Scriptures, you would not
know the answer to this problem yourself. But stop and consider
for a moment. Some would have us believe that everybody who is
alive knows about the very clear and blatant Witness of
Creation. If everybody knows it, why does the Bible have to
reveal it even to the Christians? Why does it have to be taught
in every Church in every generation? Breathing does not have to
be taught or revealed in the Scripture.
Everybody knows about that. But hardly anyone in this life knows
about the Universal Witness of Creation to YHWH until they read
these verses or have it “shown" to them by the Holy Spirit or by
an educated Christian.
Moreover, if there really was such a witness given to everyone
during this life, may I suggest that there would also be, at all
times, quite a few people in every nation who believe in YHWH
simply because they looked at the creation billboard and
accepted its witness that YHWH was the ONE who created it and
not any other. (In actual fact, it is always YHWH who leads us
to this Witness of Creation, and only after HE shows it to us do
we see how it bears witness to HIM.) And there would be no need
for any kind of missionary activity to proclaim the deity of
YHWH,[9] for this witness would be given to everyone twenty-four
hours of each and every day.
People would not need to learn the truth about YHWH, nor would
they need anyone else to remind them of it. Creation would be
doing that constantly, at least, every time they used one of
their senses. All people would need is the call to obey and a
reminder of their fate if they continued to refuse to believe
this Witness of Creation.
In addition to these shortcomings, the doctrine that the
Universal Witness of Creation is given in this life cannot
account for the theological ignorance of children that die
young, nor does it work for the sensually incapacitated, that
is, the blind, dumb, retarded, etc. Nor does it work when we
consider the doctrine that all men are spiritually blind and
can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the
gospel. (It says men are not blind and can see GOD without that
grace.)
It is also contradicted by the vanity of so many Hindus and
Buddhists, that spend years meditating on creation and come up
with the witness that they are god: hardly a witness to YHWH and
HIS judgement.
May I verily verily suggest that the Witness of Creation that we
are usually told about does not exist in life in such a way that
gives all unrepentant, unevangelised people sufficient
conviction to render them without excuse for their rebellion.
Now there is a Witness of Creation given in this life and it
comes in two major colours. For those who have no Christian
training or awareness it looks like this: if it is true that
creation has a Creator, that Creator must be infinitely
powerful, intelligent, and eternal, hence, divine. The Witness
of Creation in life to the uneducated in true religion goes
little further than this. This is why all religions can look at
the Witness of Creation given in this life and see testimony of
their concept of god. To the educated Christian, the Witness of
Creation comes in a different colour however, for to them,
creation bears a very strong witness to YHWH.
But Paul was not referring to this witness when he wrote Romans.
He was referring to the one that everyone received, that is, the
universal one that leaves all without any excuse of ignorance.
Other Christians, who realise the shortcomings of the doctrine
that the Witness of Creation is universally given in this life,
often argue that the knowledge of YHWH is innate or instinctive
in all persons. The trouble with this argument is that it too is
simply not backed up by reality, and in two ways.
First, some missionaries that I read about claimed to have come
across some people who did not have any ideas of any kind of
god, hence, possessing no innate knowledge of YHWH at all.
Secondly, in those persons who supposedly have some innate
knowledge of god, and as the supporters of this argument must
themselves admit, it usually goes no further than the naked fact
of a superior power of some sort, that is, a god-ness which is
almost totally undefined, what definition there is being left up
to the individual, and is miles away from an adequate knowledge
of YHWH and HIS judgement.
Thus, even if they possessed this type of innate knowledge, on
the basis of such knowledge they could hardly be charged with
the sin of forgetting about or scorning YHWH's self-attesting
revelation and warning.
Finally, in regard to those few individuals who claim to
innately have a true knowledge of YHWH, may I suggest that it
was most likely put in them in their early childhood by their
Christian cultural environment or even guardian angels, but for
those who are sure that they were born possessing such
knowledge, I believe that pre-conception existence explains that
fact quite nicely in that we do not always completely forget
everything, ie, our memory is not erased, it is just covered
over.
Therefore, although such things are buried quite deep, they are
still there. I believe that this answer is much more realistic
than affirming, against the mountain of evidence to the
contrary, that all persons are likewise born knowing.[10]
In addition to the fact that the reality we live in goes against
the interpretation that these theological truths are innate or
universally witnessed to in this life,[11] I think that these
verses go against it themselves, in that these verses must be
reinterpreted to fit such interpretations.
For example, in verse 18, “revealed” must mean much less than a
real revelation. In verse 19, the same is true of the word
“shewed” which must mean very little indeed, rather than as much
as we now know about HIM. In verse 20, “clearly seen” must be
given a very limited and unclear definition, rather than the
kind of understanding that satan and his angels have. “Being
understood by the things that are made” must mean something
between being understood at a quick glance and being understood
after careful meditation and thought about the things that were
made long before, rather than being understood through
witnessing the very creation of these things like satan and his
angels witnessed. (I am sure that they learned a lot more about
GOD from witnessing the six day creation of Genesis 1:3 to 31.)
In verse 21, “knew GOD” must mean only knew about some superior
power, rather than knowing YHWH personally and knowing that HE
is GOD (like satan and his angels did after they put out of
Paradise), and “vain” must be looked on as something each person
becomes after their rebellion in life, rather than the way
almost every person is born and, in the same vein, each child
must be looked on as being born with an innocent heart and mind,
rather than with a “reprobate mind” and a heart given over to
and darkened by sin. Finally, in verse 32, “knowing the
judgement of GOD” must be looked on as much less than the
explicit knowledge of eternal damnation which it really is. How
many persons do you know that know about their eternal
damnation? But according to this verse, everyone should have a
very clear knowledge of it, say like satan and his angels do.
Well, these Scriptures, as they plainly read, can not help but
put the Created on Earth theorists in a difficult position. They
must either reinterpret the class of men that Paul is writing
about so that it does not refer to everyone who will be judged
(that is, interpret it so that it includes only those who have
received clear testimony to YHWH in this life and have rejected
it); OR they must redefine all these attributes so that they
apply to all persons, even those who die in infancy and
ignorance.
These are the only real alternatives they have to accepting that
the only way that these verses could be true, as they plainly
read, is if all people had received this knowledge prior to
their life on Earth.
Last of all, I think Paul again bears witness that this
revelation is not received during this life, for if he thought
it was, how could he have said in 1 Corinthians 13:12: For now
we see through a glass, darkly;...now I know in part?
Are you really prepared to accept that the “clearly seen” and
“shewed” of each and every pagan constitutes much, much less
than the “through a glass darkly, - know in part” of most of the
Christian crop? f this is Paul's description of the attainment
of most Christians in the knowledge of GOD, how can he possibly
describe that which every pagan knows as “clearly seen” and
“shewed”?
To my mind, if one is prepared to accept such a contradictory
interpretation, he might as well throw his Bible away because,
as someone once said, “then there is an end of all significance
in language, and Scripture is wiped out as a definite testimony
to anything.”
Just how much more reasonable is it to realise that the “clearly
seen” revelation is the one that took place before Adam and Eve,
and that the “through a glass darkly” is the description of the
limits of the vision that the best Christians get on Earth? Much
more to my mind![12]
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were SOMETIME alienated and
enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy
and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: 23 If ye
continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved
away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which
was preached to every creature which is under heaven:
So GOD died so that we could become holy (vs. 22)! And how is
that going to be achieved? Well, through the gospel that was
preached to every creature under heaven. Wonder when this
preaching took place!??? It must have been before the
“sometime” they were alienated!
I bet it would be a drag to cling to a different gospel, say one
that has not been preached to every creature under heaven. Of
course, every gospel has an interpretation for this verse. I
guess you will just have to choose: is it hyperbole or fact?
Which one makes the most sense?
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have
known Him that is from the beginning.
I think that the translations of this verse reveal a little of
the bias of our translators, that as soon as they get a
Scripture which can not be reinterpreted to conform to their
created on Earth presuppositions, they often just add a word or
two so that it can (in the name of helping our understanding of
course!) !
What I am referring to are the words “that is”.
They are not in the Greek text.
That is why they are italicised in some Bibles. Therefore I
believe that I am much more correct than they are if I read the
verse this way: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye
have known Him from the beginning.
What more do I need to say? GOD's word or man's word: which one
are you going to take your stand on? Built on the Rock eh? Well,
I’d just make sure that it is not a man-made rock!
---------------------------------------------------------
Notes for: [Part Two]
7. Romans 2:6-8 - (GOD) Who will render to every man according
to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But
unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.
8. Wouldn't you say that the fact that babies are included
among those who will be condemned shows that the Universal
Witness of Creation that they received, was received before they
began this life?
9. In just the same way that there is no need for any
missionary activity to reveal the existence of the sun, but
there is a need for missionaries to reveal the truth about YHWH,
as Paul states in Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him
in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in
Him of whom they have not heard (in this life)?
10. It is very hard for such people to account for this innate
knowledge in themselves if everyone does not have it.
11. Of course, I have grown to the point where I am not afraid
to stand with the GOD of truth, that is, the holy GOD. That's
the whole trouble with this doctrine. Its implications are not
pretty. They don't fit in with our unholy, idolatrous fantasies
very well.
12. One more thing about the reality we live in. Did you know
that you could go to a place you have been in before you were
conceived, a real place you would remember and a place you would
call your real home? (For example, when a person dies, their
first thought is usually, I'm dead - their second is, I'm back.)
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Ted when the beginning 8 left the Ark, none of
them did NOT believe. Somewhere down the line, A father choose
not to tell his son(s). This began what we have today. This is
also the reason why Jesus told us to tell the world about HIM.
It did not say when everyone was notified the end would come. It
says when that last number, that last Christian of the
CHurch(Body/Bride) of Christ happens, the end will begin.
So we keep trying to spread the word knowing that the one who we
miss could have brought about the Rapture and the End Days. So
get busy and tell everyone.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5635--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: patrick jane Date: May 14, 2019, 7:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=450.msg5631#msg5631
date=1557861412]
DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part One.]
(Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been
dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by
the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been
dried in the sun too!)
It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear
the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be
accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part
of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge
of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact,
but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as
Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of
which are quoted and the exegesis dealt with next) simply
because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows
or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who
does not believe in HIM.
Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are
left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the
plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of
mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that
pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these
questions and this paradox than any other does.
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the
nations who FORGET GOD.
Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the
wicked return, all the heathen, that FORGET GOD.
We will looked at the first part of this verse later under GOING
BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to
Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second
part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees
have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text.
That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)
Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD
in only one way, that it means the rejection and putting away of
YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy warning of
eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have
previously received.
Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received
it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils
down to whether this revelation is received in this life or
whether it is received before this life as per PCE theology?
Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the
shortcomings of all the in-life theories right now because in
this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this
verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports
pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to
Sheol.
Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse
clearly supports PCE theology, that constitutes a fairly strong
witness that the time when David believed that the wicked
received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also
previous to this life.[1]
Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not
been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from
the foundations of the earth? First of all, from the context
(you could read it) we can determine that what they have known,
heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is
the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they
have received.
Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in
a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah
is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the
beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the
foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah
is not asking questions. He is giving answers.[2]
Next, we should try to determine the time when they received
this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned,
this question boils down to whether they received it during this
life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say
that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that
this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the
Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for
everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an
exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and
straightforward.
John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the
world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might
be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he
that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not
believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And
this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And
men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were
evil.
The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all,
upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that
this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is
in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine (#23) states: (the Greek
word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race,
mankind.”
And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones
living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves
the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must
include everyone since Adam.
Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we
ascribe to the words “condemned already”. I believe that we must
consider the condemnation as being already present before they
heard the gospel, which means that they would be under
condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.
In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the
condemnation of unbelieving men: they were condemned already,
ie, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them
from the condemnation they were under.[3]
Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation
that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name
of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the Person
of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this
unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not
believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?
For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth
not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard
about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted
believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?” Or
should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are
condemned already because they have refused to believe in the
Name of the only begotten Son?”
Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for
the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus
in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have
failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for
their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe
that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation,
one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the
infiniteness of HIS love.
Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if
He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to
them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means
that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love
them enough to send it.
Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on
account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with
the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret
Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?
Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the
attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that
is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they
have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.
Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads
us to another conclusion, to wit: that for there to be a refusal
to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation
of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there
must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.
Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting
revelation given to all men.
First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has
been shown to the world (ie, to Adam and his children) but some
men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief,
disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all
refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of
omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the
Light, that is, of the Son.
Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in
this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is
universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth
every man. From this verse, we can see that every person on
Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those
who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.
Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation
of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are
faced with the question as to when each and every person
received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of
GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this
question boils down to whether this revelation was received
before life began or whether it was received during this life.
I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this
revelation is received before this life begins (and is
subsequently forgotten).
The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any
unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think
that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in
this life, someone would have written “it”[4] down, or at least
remembered “it” and talked about “it” to someone else. In other
words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly
well known before He came.
Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong
indication that this revelation was given before life began in
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that
cometh into the world. If every man comes into the world, then
every man must exist before he comes into the world.[5]
Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the
revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every
person, was given before life began.
Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out
argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some
profit.
First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned
already, that is, even before He came.
Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for
faithlessness in His Name.
Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the
revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that
the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.
For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a
sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal
rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His
Name.
Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of
His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding
His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints
strongly at a pre-life revelation, and second, that John 1:9,
which says that every man comes into the world, being that it
connotes every man's preconception existence, also hints
strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.[6]
---------------------------------------------------------
Notes for: Does Everybody Know? When Did They Find Out?
1. Like if you've spotted one elephant in the bush, it's not too
hard to find another (especially when there are lots of them).
2. Very good job of hiding the answer, Isaiah! You could give a
course on "How to lay an elephant on the people, that is, give
attestation to the future revelation of our pre-conception
existence, and seal it from even the sharpest eyes".
3. According to these definitions, I believe that we can read
the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that
HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to
believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For
GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them,
but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and
those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their
souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever,
are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not
profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that
results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of
the unique Son of GOD.
When we read the verses this way, it is a lot easier to see that
before Christ incarnated to save men, men were already under
condemnation for not believing in His Name.
4. For example, that “It” is divine.
5. We can tell that John 1:9 connotes pre-conception existence
because almost every commentator rearranges this verse so that
“cometh into the world” modifies “the Light”, rather than “every
man”. If “cometh into the world” only meant birth, they could
leave it as it plainly reads, but because it means
pre-conception existence, it must be reinterpreted to fit the
prev-ailing theological theories on the creation of the spirit,
that is, it must modify Jesus because, to them, He is the only
pre-existent Person. More on John 1:9 in the next section.
6. Like, elephant tracks are usually made by elephants!
[/quote]Excellent post and thread Ted, sorry I didn't reply
earlier but there is a lot to read here and elsewhere. Your
threads are being read so that's great. You raised some very
good points that can't really be refuted and this has always
been in the back of my mind. There are many more scriptures than
what you've already posted referring to us knowing God or
knowing OF God before we were born. I am really leaning towards
the Reformed theology in recent weeks.
Again, there are so many scriptures about predestination,
foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world, our names
written in the Book Of Life and so on. We can't overlook these
scriptures and wish them away. It seems to me, as the Bible
says, we were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the earth.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the
saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ
Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the
Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places
in Christ:
4 [size=14pt]According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without
blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made
us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness
of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according
to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in
heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being
predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all
things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first
trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye
believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption
of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord
Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my
prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the
knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may
know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the
glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward
who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and
dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world,
but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be
the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in
all.[/size]
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
#Post#: 7029--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part Two]
By: guest58 Date: July 13, 2019, 12:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=450.msg5633#msg5633
date=1557880399][shadow=blue,left]Ted when the beginning 8 left
the Ark, none of them did NOT believe. Somewhere down the line,
A father choose not to tell his son(s). [/shadow][/quote]
I'm curious what scripture you found this fact in in?
[quote][shadow=blue,left] It did not say when everyone was
notified the end would come. It says when that last number, that
last Christian of the CHurch(Body/Bride) of Christ happens, the
end will begin. [/shadow][/quote] What does "when the last
number...happens" mean?
I think the culmination of the gospel to sinners is when the
last sinful elect hold-out repents full, becomes holy and
perfectly in accord with HIS call for the judgement so that this
last sinful but good seed is no longer in danger of being pulled
up by the judgement, THEN the judgement will happen.
[quote]So we keep trying to spread the word knowing that the one
who we miss could have brought about the Rapture and the End
Days. So get busy and tell everyone.
Blade [/quote]
The word of HIS gospel has been spread, Col 1:23 to ever person
under heaven. The proof of HIS divinity and HIS power have been
clearly seen and understood Rom 1:19-20. The time now is to
finally separate the temporarily sinful sheep from the eternally
evil goats.
#Post#: 7055--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part Two]
By: guest8 Date: July 14, 2019, 9:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=450.msg7029#msg7029
date=1563040318]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=450.msg5633#msg5633
date=1557880399][shadow=blue,left]Ted when the beginning 8 left
the Ark, none of them did NOT believe. Somewhere down the line,
A father choose not to tell his son(s). [/shadow][/quote]
I'm curious what scripture you found this fact in in?
[quote][shadow=blue,left] It did not say when everyone was
notified the end would come. It says when that last number, that
last Christian of the CHurch(Body/Bride) of Christ happens, the
end will begin. [/shadow][/quote] What does "when the last
number...happens" mean?
I think the culmination of the gospel to sinners is when the
last sinful elect hold-out repents full, becomes holy and
perfectly in accord with HIS call for the judgement so that this
last sinful but good seed is no longer in danger of being pulled
up by the judgement, THEN the judgement will happen.
[quote]So we keep trying to spread the word knowing that the one
who we miss could have brought about the Rapture and the End
Days. So get busy and tell everyone.
Blade [/quote]
The word of HIS gospel has been spread, Col 1:23 to ever person
under heaven. The proof of HIS divinity and HIS power have been
clearly seen and understood Rom 1:19-20. The time now is to
finally separate the temporarily sinful sheep from the eternally
evil goats.
[/quote]
disagree
Blade
#Post#: 7072--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: guest58 Date: July 15, 2019, 6:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Bladerunner on May 14, 2019, 07:33:19 pm
Ted when the beginning 8 left the Ark, none of them did NOT
believe. Somewhere down the line, A father choose not to tell
his son(s).
I'm still curious what scripture you found this fact in?
#Post#: 7248--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: guest8 Date: July 24, 2019, 10:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=450.msg7072#msg7072
date=1563234147]
Quote from: Bladerunner on May 14, 2019, 07:33:19 pm
Ted when the beginning 8 left the Ark, none of them did NOT
believe. Somewhere down the line, A father choose not to tell
his son(s).
I'm still curious what scripture you found this fact in?
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]what scripture.... Who closed the door on the
ark....GOD.....Eight people went in and eight people come out 1
year later. There was not a one of them that did not Know about
GOD....They might have chosen not to follow Him as Ham did but
they Knew who and what GOD was/is and will be.
Blade[/shadow]
Blade
#Post#: 7266--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: guest58 Date: July 26, 2019, 1:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote] Bladerunner on May 14, 2019, 07:33:19 pm
Ted when the beginning 8 left the Ark, none of them did NOT
believe. Somewhere down the line, A father choose not to tell
his son(s).[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font][/quote]
[quote]I'm still curious what scripture you found this fact in?
[/quote]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=450.msg7248#msg7248
date=1564024624][shadow=blue,left]what scripture.... Who closed
the door on the ark....GOD.....Eight people went in and eight
people come out 1 year later. There was not a one of them that
did not Know about GOD....They might have chosen not to follow
Him as Ham did but they Knew who and what GOD was/is and will
be. Blade[/shadow][/quote]
Ahh, I understand now. They knew but they had inherited their
father's sin and were rebelliously sinful... Knowing GOD and
following GOD are indeed different things. I thought maybe you
meant them to be the same, sorry.
They sort of acted like Adam and Eve, didn't they...knowing GOD
but being rebellious.
#Post#: 16324--------------------------------------------------
Re: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
By: patrick jane Date: August 16, 2020, 9:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I've always known
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