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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 5583--------------------------------------------------
Progressive Revelation
By: guest58 Date: May 12, 2019, 3:12 pm
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WHY DO ELEPHANTS WRITE SCRIPTURES ON THEIR TOE NAILS? [1],
found in footnotes at the end.
Jesus said: John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you,
but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of
truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.
Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to
us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed
to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was
going to receive a new revelation in the future.
So now, this being the case, I ask: would not GOD bear witness
in Their Word to a revelation that They intended to give in the
future?
Well, I think They would (because They've done it this way
before) and if so, then wouldn't a person like Paul (who had
gone to heaven and learned the whole truth but was then
restrained from telling them) most likely be under some leading
from the Holy Spirit to bear witness in his writings to these
hidden heavenly truths so that, when it was time for their
public disclosure later on, there would be some scriptural
attestation to them?
Like, what if you had a secret that was not going to be told to
the Church until the far distant future, and you knew that those
persons who would receive that disclosure were going to have a
hard time with it, as GOD's people have always had with every
new revelation, and you knew that those people would revere your
writings, wouldn't you put in something which would support the
revelation when it would be made known?
Probably you would, and if you would, probably Paul would too
but, at the same time both you and Paul would not put it in in
such a way as would disclose the secret ahead of time if
forbidden to do so, 2 Cor 12:4? No, the testimony would have to
be hidden somehow so that it remained a secret until the right
time.
Therefore, you would hide the testimony in your writings,
knowing that, until the time of the revelation, your readers
would not really understand what you had written, and that would
they make up interpretations which would not be entirely true.
[2]
Now, if this be a reasonable way of looking at this secret
heavenly theology of Paul, we must also realize that many of the
other writers of Scriptures were probably in the same position,
that is, knowing the same theology which they also were not able
to disclose, that is, knowing the same secrets which had to
remain secret for a long time, but at the same time, under
leading to give a testimony in their writings to the truth of
the new revelation for the sake of the recipients of the
revelation in the days to come.
Now, truly this would be a hard thing to accomplish, but not
impossible by any means, for by the Spirit of GOD, we can do all
things, Philippians 4:13. I simply cannot overemphasize the
importance of realizing this duress that most of the writers of
the Scripture were under. It is very important to realize that
they knew about our pre-conception existence but were forbidden
to testify to it in such a way as would disclose the general
knowledge of it before GOD's chosen time.
Your experience in reading the Bible should also bear witness to
this idea of some hidden theology in the Scriptures, for
whenever you read them, don't you always feel that the writers
knew a lot more about things than you do, yet doesn't it often
seem that they are keeping things back? Don't you often feel
that they were not making things half as clear as they could
have, if they'd have wanted to? Doesn't it seem that they did
not want you to understand fully,[3] and doesn't this seem to be
true of every Scripture writer, not just a couple?[4] It must,
if you're studying them at all!
So, for those who would like to take the time necessary to do
the work of searching the Scriptures regarding this doctrine, I
would like to present some verses which witness to our
pre-conception existence, along with some others which I feel
make a lot more sense when they're interpreted in light of this
doctrine.
Now, being that hardly anyone has searched the Scriptures in
light of the pre-conception view, these Scriptures have rarely
been interpreted this way before. Therefore, it stands to reason
that such an exegesis[5] of these Scriptures will be new and
that it will be fairly unique, that is, that almost all the
other interpretations of the same Scriptures will be different.
In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of pre-existence
has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every
exegete[6] automatically looks for a different interpretation
when they read such a Scripture. This being the case, a mere
list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural
support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a
list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth exegesis of the
said Scriptures. Providing such a list without the accompanying
new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this
doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would
tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our
pre-conception existence, in much the same way that everybody
used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the Christ king.[7]
Now then, most people are going to find some of these sections
difficult.[8] Therefore, I suggest that you not enter into them
lightly,[9] but that you prepare yourself to spend some time in
some hard thinking and searching of the Scriptures.[10] Without
this preparation and commitment, I doubt that you will be able
to understand what I am trying to say, and if you can not
understand what I am saying, how can you possibly inherit the
blessings that only accompany such understanding?[11]
Most of the Scriptures on pre-conception existence can be
categorized to a certain extent. This makes them a little easier
to understand.
The exception to this grand scheme of things is the first
category. I have called it "GENESIS" because all its references
are from the book called Genesis,[12] and because it is called
GENESIS, I have put it at the beginning, simply because that
seems to be a very traditional thing to do, and who am I to buck
tradition? After all, you know what almost always happens to
people who buck the traditional way of doing things, and I have
enough problems already!
Notes For: Why Do Elephants...?
1 - So that they can hide in the Bible and nobody sees them.
This is somewhat similar to the worldly version; they paint
their toenails red so they can hide in the strawberry patch. It
would seem that those of the world can not see any better then
we do, in spite of their proclamations to the contrary.
2 - It stands to reason that these false interpretations would
endure unopposed by the truth until the time of the general
disclosure, at which time the new proper interpretation would be
known as well as the new revelation.
In other words, at the time of the revelation, most of the
commentators would probably be in fair agreement that the best
of the false interpretations was the truth of GOD and only some
would change their mind. From the historical precedent regarding
the incarnation of GOD you should realize that it is very easy
for everyone to miss or pass over something that they are not
looking for, and that this is the case for every orthodox
commentator when it comes to pre-conception existence, for not
very many have ever looked at the Scriptures to see if they bear
witness to pre-existence, and if any ever have it would seem
that they did not see any.
3 - I think that pre-conception existence theology explains this
unwillingness of knowledgeable people to openly disclose the
things that they knew much better than any other theology.
Just what reason do you have for GOD hiding the Messiah's deity
from the Jews?
(See Luke 10:21 I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and
earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and
prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for
so it seemed good in Thy sight.)
As for the fact that the NT writers knew of pre-conception
existence theology, I will show further on just how strongly the
Scriptures show that they all knew. You are going to be quite
surprised. It is a little like: Paul and the apostles saw my
day, and were glad, but they could not tell you about it until
now, so they slipped it in between the lines.
4 - For example, have you ever wondered why some of the
disciples never wrote any OT commentaries? They must have known
how little the Church would understand the law and the prophets.
If they knew the correct interpretations, why didn't they open
them up to the Church too?
And compare this methodology to the libraries of the saints and
“reformers”. How do you account for the difference in their
manner of propagating the truth?
Like, if you knew as much as Matthew, would that Gospel be your
final answer? Is that all you'd have to say after three years of
watching the Christ and having learned the mysteries of the
kingdom? I doubt it!
5 - Exegesis: the exposition or interpretation of any literary
production, but more particularly, the exposition or
interpretation of Scripture; sometimes applied to the science
which lays down the principles of the art of sacred
interpretation, more properly called exegetics or hermeneutics.
(Webster's #10).
6 - Exegete: one supposedly skilled in exegesis.
7 - In other words, not according to the illumination of the
Holy Spirit, but according to their own errant, unilluminated,
theological presuppositions. Of course, you wouldn't continue to
do such a thing, would you?
8 - Oh that nasty word!! Why, it doesn't tickle at all! For
those of you whose question is, why do we have to learn such
hard stuff, please refer to the following:
Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the
things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Proverbs 8:34-36 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching
daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso
findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they
that hate me love death.
Isaiah 43:27-28 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers
have transgressed against ME. Therefore I have profaned the
princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and
Israel to reproaches.
Hosea 4:6 MY people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because
thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou
shalt be no priest to ME: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of
thy GOD, I will also forget thy children.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for
the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine;
continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save
thyself, and them that hear thee.
9 - Although a sense of humour will be of great benefit.
10 - I think it would be rather incredible if a person got a
full grasp of it in the first reading, or even in the second,
third, fourth.
11 - Church history shows that the doctrinal growth of the
Church has usually been the result of an error being propagated
and then the Church struggling to combat the error with the
truth, which we first had to figure out ourselves.
At those times, things often got a little confused and many were
seduced from the best foundation simply because the faith did
not have an immediate reply, that is, a reasonable, theological
refutation for the errors, but it always took time to work it
out (to learn the “new” truth) so that our faith remained on the
solidest foundation.
Of all the errors that have or may be foisted on the Church, the
greatest (strongest, most reasonable, hardest to refute, most
seductive) of all will be those of the anti-Christ.
Now, in those days, there will not be time to counteract his
errors afterward. In other words, if one is seduced away from
the faith then, there will not be an opportunity to return later
on after the Church has worked out the truth and shown the error
of his ways.
This being the case, it should not be too hard to see that Jesus
will change His modus operandi for those times and give us the
sure foundation we need to refute his errors before we are
confronted with those errors.
Blessed is the person whose house is built on the most solid
rock around before the seductive flood of temptations takes
place. On the other hand, we could go the easy way.
12 - May I suggest that you carefully read Genesis 1:1 to 5:1
before you begin this section. Try to remember it well, for it
will never be the same again.
Now, I know it will take a little time but it will be worth it,
honest!
#Post#: 5591--------------------------------------------------
New Revelation prophesied...
By: guest58 Date: May 13, 2019, 1:30 am
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[font=verdana] Jeremiah 33:3 Call to ME, and I will answer thee
and show thee great and mighty [1] things which thou knowest
not.
The first question regarding this verse is who is the subject?
I believe that the subject is the "it" of the preceding verse,
Jeremiah 33:2 Thus saith the LORD, the maker of it, the LORD who
formed it, to establish it, JEHOVAH is HIS name.
From the general context, we can see that this "it" must be
Jerusalem. Therefore, because HE must be speaking of Jerusalem
in verse 2, I believe continuity suggests that it must also be
Jerusalem that HE is addressing in verse 3, that is, Jerusalem
representing GOD's people around the time of their return from
their dispersion (verse 11).
Verse 4 also suggests to whom this word is addressed. 33:4 For
thus saith the LORD, the GOD of Israel, concerning the houses of
this city.
In this verse, the houses of the city, that is, the people in
them at the time of this regathering (verses 6,7) are the
persons with whom this word is concerned. Therefore, if we
supply them as the subject in verse 3, it becomes apparent that
verse 3 is addressed to those persons that, in the latter days,
will be living "in Jerusalem".
Therefore, this being the case, we can say that verse 3 is a
means of grace to these people, firstly, instructing them what
to do to have all these promises fulfilled; and secondly,
announcing GOD's intention to give them a new revelation of
great and mighty, previously unknown things.
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are
closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be
purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do
wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise
shall understand. From 12:9 we can see that the disclosing or
unsealing of the angel's words (12:7) will not happen until the
time of the end. Therefore, we can say with assurance that this
verse bears witness that there will be an unsealing, disclosing
or revealing at the time of the end.
Therefore may I once again suggest that, in the end times, we
will be given a new understanding, that is, a revealing of that
which has been sealed previously.[2]
This verse also tells us that the understanding of the new
disclosures will not be possessed by everyone,[3] but that this
blessing will be possessed only by the wise, that is, the
purified. I also suggest that because the verse says that it is
the wise who shall understand, some in-depth study might be
required to understand the new disclosures, that is, that these
new revelations will not be blinding visions of light, but that
they will most likely appeal to our reason. Stated another way,
they will be doctrinal, that discipline that requires so much
discipline.
Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the
mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the
top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills;
and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and
say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to
the house of the GOD of Jacob; and HE will teach us of HIS ways,
and we will walk in HIS paths: for the law shall go forth of
Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Well, we've been
looking into the possibility of a new revelation being given in
the latter days. In these verses we can see that there are going
to be some rather incredible changes in the religious scene, to
say the least, and in the latter part of verse 2 we are given
(at least, a part of) the reason for such incredible changes, to
wit: the word of the LORD shall go forth from the city of GOD.
In other words, there will be at least one latter day revealer
of the word of the LORD, because that's the only way that the
word of the LORD can go forth from the city of David. Well, it
stands to reason that if we're going to get a new revelation,
we're also going to get someone who gives it.
Now, about this word of the LORD, just how do you think it might
come? Do you think that somebody might get up and say: Thus
saith the LORD? Well, that's certainly possible, because we've
had that happen before, haven't we? Yes indeed, we know we've
had that before because somebody wrote it down for us in a Book.
And the word of the LORD might come in another way too, right?
Like, Paul wrote a doctrinal dissertation in a letter to the
Romans, didn't he? Maybe we'll get something along those lines.
Then again, maybe GOD will give someone a vision, or a message,
and I suppose, if the visionary or messenger writes it down,
well, well, well! It seems that, no matter which way we look at
it, we're going to get another written word.[4]
Zechariah 5:2-5 I see a flying roll; the length thereof is
twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then he said
unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the
whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on
this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be
cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth,
saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of
the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by MY
name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall
consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. Well,
what do we have here? A flying roll that GOD will bring forth.
Do you recall getting this one before? I don't think you do.
Maybe that is because it still is to come.
Let's see. Flying would probably connote something of an
heavenly or unearthly character. Since it is a book (scroll) it
would probably contain some ideas of an unearthly (previously
unrevealed) nature. Its measurement "just happens" to match the
holy place of GOD's temple, so it would probably be a holy book.
And its holy message will have a profound effect on some people,
for it obviously has some bad news for the thieves (that is,
sinners - Jesus died between two thieves - in this case, those
who would be interested in stealing God's glory, that is, those
who have "better ideas" than GOD's way for them, that is,
"Christians" who do not follow HIM,[5] that is, hypocrites, that
is, false swearers[6]. For these people it shall constitute a
curse, that is, it will create a very profound separation
between them and the holy GOD who brings it forth. And even
worse than that, it shall have a lingering effect on them, for
it shall enter into their house, that is, their life (we are
houses for the spirits we worship) and slowly destroy the
strength thereof.[7] Well, maybe this is it, and maybe not, but
we are definitely going to get such a roll sometime.[8] [9]
------------------------------------------
Notes for New Revelation
1. KJV margin: hidden. Marginal translations are not thought to
be quite as good as the one the translators used, that is, the
one used in the text but the marginal translation was thought to
have enough merit to be noted in the margin. In other words, the
translators were not very sure on how to exactly translate a lot
of verses (like this one) so they gave us two translations, the
textual one being their favourite (or best educated guess) and
the marginal coming in second. In other words, if they were
wrong on the first, they are hoping to redeem themselves with
the second.
2. Now if we are going to get one, what says that we'll get only
one?
3. Wouldn't you say that this might just indicate that these
revelations will be given before Jesus' return?
4. Perhaps even accompanied by a somewhat inspired apology, eh?
5. Kiel(#2) comments: “The roll therefore symbolised the curse
which will fall upon sinners throughout the whole land,
consuming them with their houses, and thus sweeping them out of
the nation of GOD.” (In other words, Armageddon.)
6. That the thief and the false swearer are the same person is
shown by “and it shall remain in the midst of his house.” If
they were two, i.e., different persons, wouldn't it have to be
“their houses”?
7. Since it takes awhile, this has to be taking place at least a
while before the judgement.
8. Kiel(#3) comments: “The vision certainly refers to the
remote future of the kingdom of GOD.”
9. Bet you didn't know that “flying” is literally: covered
(either with wings or feathers, or obscurity). In other words,
it might not be a flying roll at all. It might be an obscure
(previously hidden) roll.[/font]
#Post#: 5592--------------------------------------------------
Revelation 22:18 - 19
By: guest58 Date: May 13, 2019, 1:34 am
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[list]
[li]
Well now, there seems to be some reasonable evidence to the idea
of a new revelation being given in the latter days, but what
about the old warning in Revelation 22:18-19 If any man shall
add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that
are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from
the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD shall take away his
part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from
the things that are written in this book.?
While it is true that I claim to have a new revelation, I can
also say that the new things I know are already talked about in
the Bible. So, I'm not adding to the Bible, I'm just explaining
a lot of things that are already in there, that you don't
understand very well yet. I'm not adding to Scripture: I'm just
explaining it, but explaining it in a very new way, a way that
you have never seen before, and a way that makes better sense
than anything we've ever had before.
So, does this sound interesting? I hope so. I hope you find it
interesting enough to carry on and read the rest and find out
for yourself where the Bible comes down on this one.
[/li]
[/list]
#Post#: 5598--------------------------------------------------
The Comforter shall teach you all things...
By: guest58 Date: May 13, 2019, 3:31 pm
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[font=times new roman]John 14:26 The Comforter shall teach you
all things.[/font][font=verdana]In regard to this verse, one
must either believe that the Church has already been taught all
things and that we already know all things, OR one must believe
that we still must be taught new things and receive a new
understanding of the revealed facts we presently possess so that
they will truly reveal all things. [/font][font=times new roman]
Because I do not accept that anyone else in the Church knows all
things,[1] I believe that this prophecy from Jesus definitely
leads us to believe that we will receive further teaching, that
is, revelation, in order that it be fulfilled.
John 16:12 I (Jesus) have yet many things to say unto you, but
you cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of
truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. "Many things
to say" must mean many things to reveal. He says that these
unrevealed things would have been revealed but for their
(our[2]) inability to bear them. He goes on to say that when the
Spirit of truth is come, the Church will be led to know all
truth.
I think history proves that this process has not come to
completion yet, for we have not received many new revelations of
the truth since Jesus spoke these words. In fact, we have not
even been brought into a full knowledge of the truth about the
doctrines revealed at His first advent. Since we do not yet know
all the truth, that is, since the Church is not founded on the
whole truth yet, that is, since the Holy Church Christ started
to build has not been finished yet, may I suggest that there has
to be some more leading in this area.
This is the same as saying that revelations and leading which
could not be revealed then will be when we are able to bear
them, that is, when the Spirit of truth is come. Now, some will
undoubtedly want a little discussion to the effect that the
Spirit of truth came at Pentecost. Well it's true that the
Spirit of truth came at Pentecost, but He did not come in a way
that fulfils this prophecy.
Rather, I think that Jesus was correct when He said, in John 9:4
I must work the works[3]of HIM that sent Me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work. I think that the history
of the Church has proven His prediction to be extremely
accurate, for it was not too long after He was "gone" that the
darkness[4] set in, and it seems that it has been allowed to
reign supreme until these times. But, despair not: very soon you
should be able to see for yourself that the Spirit of truth is
now leading you into more truth, much more truth.
This interpretation (that the Spirit of truth still has to come
and lead us into all the truth) is backed up by John 16:25 These
things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time
cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I
shall shew you plainly of the Father. Which time was Jesus
referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say
like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then
He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He
not?
I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to
ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators)
yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so
plainly yet? In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly,
or does it yet speak to us in proverbs?[5]
Well, we could argue about it for some time, so maybe it would
be good to call in a mutually acceptable authority on the
subject. Let's look at what Paul had to say regarding the
plainness and clarity of the New Testament vision of the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in
part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass
darkly: but then face to face: now I[23] know in part, but then
shall I know even also as I am known.
Grosheide(#5), remarks in his commentary: "Our seeing in this
dispensation is in a mirror darkly. The mirror in antiquity gave
a very poor image (2 Corinthians 3:18). Seeing something through
a mirror only was not seeing the reality. It was like
considering a riddle, which makes one wonder what one really
sees. Our vision is hampered by a twofold darkness[6] and hence
it is in part. We are unable to determine what in our vision is
precisely lacking,[7] for if we could we would have freed
ourselves of the imperfection of the mirror.
The only thing that can be said is that our Lord reveals in a
figure which is formally perspicuous[8] that we, when we see
{now}[9], have not reached perfection. Our {present} vision is
not untrue, but it is imperfect as to its degree. When
perfection has been reached, we shall see face to face, ie, we
shall with our eyes {of our understanding} look straight into
the face of things {reality}; there will be nothing between us
and the things {like GOD's face}.[10][/font] Here again we are
reminded of 1 John 3:2[11] . Passages like Exodus 33:11;
Deuteronomy 34:10 (confer also Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah
52:8[12]) point in the same direction. The subsequent words also
support this interpretation. Nevertheless we maintain that the
vision of GOD, the knowledge of HIM, although not entirely
excluded, still is not the only thing Paul has in view. The
reference is broader, Paul refers to a seeing in which our face
is in immediate opposition with the face of things {like the
whole truth}. "To see," as appears anew, implies a Christian's
entire intellectual life, as is also clear from the word "to
know" in this context.
Well, wee new revelationalists don't find it too hard to agree
with most of his interpretation. In fact, I suppose that only a
few things need to be added.
First, it is plain, as per this commentator's remarks, that Paul
expected that there would be another major revelation given to
the Church.
Second, we need to inquire as to the time of this great change
in the Christian's entire intellectual life or view of
everything. May I suggest that, first, from 1 John 3:2[13]we can
tell that it shall be changed at (by - hence, before) the time
Jesus returns. Second, may I suggest that Isaiah
52:8[14]pinpoints the time even better, for it says that "they"
shall possess it when "the LORD brings again Zion", which event
is definitely prior to His return (because "Israel" has to be
converted before He returns in salvation and judgement, not
after). Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He hath promised, saying, Yet
once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[15]
Would you like to tell me what the word "shake" means in this
context? (I bet you wouldn't!) Maybe we can tell from looking at
the previous divine shakings in history? Let's see. He shook it
when Jesus came (as Jesus of Nazareth and as the glorious Son of
man) and He shook it when Moses came. Any other time you know of
that might qualify as a real shaking? (I don't think Noah
qualifies as a shaking. More akin to a bath, wouldn't you say?)
Well, an interesting thing about these previous shakings is that
they all involved incredible displays of power, and even more
interesting so far as this study is concerned is the fact that
they both involved big doctrinal revelations. Any bets on
whether this yet once more shaking will be any different?
-------------------
Notes for: The Comforter...
1. Since this certainly can not mean being omniscient, “knowing
all things” has to entail not knowing some things.
2. You must include the whole Church.
3. “Work the works” has to mean revealing more truth. Otherwise
we are left with the conclusion that no one has done any work
for GOD since, which I think is a pretty ridiculous
interpretation.
4. “Night - darkness” has to mean standing on those incomplete
revelations of the truth which we have previously received, that
is, not yet having received the whole light - truth. So then, so
far as Jesus was concerned, the New Testament age awareness of
spiritual truth is night-like and in darkness, when it's
compared to what is still to come.
5. Leon Morris(#4) commenting on this word, says: It can mean
parables, but it is also used of a variety of clever sayings of
one kind or another. There is often the implication that the
meaning does not lie on the surface, but must be searched for
and thought about. “Dark sayings” does therefore bring out an
important part of what the word conveys.
Schonfield translates: ‘I have spoken to you enigmatically thus
far.’ Up till now Jesus has spoken figuratively, with the
implication that the figure is not easy to penetrate. The
reference will be to the discourse as a whole rather than to the
immediately preceding figure of the woman in childbirth (which
is fairly obvious; it is not a “dark saying”, even though there
are depths of meaning in it which the disciples are as yet
unable to plumb).
Jesus goes on to refer to “the hour” when He will speak plainly.
One would have expected that this would be now, and, indeed, the
disciples apparently take it this way John 16:29 His disciples
said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no
proverb. Yet Jesus does seem to be looking forward to the time
after the resurrection; John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in
My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for
you... and this was the time when things which had been obscure
began to be clear for them. This is probably the best way to
take the words.
There is a marked difference in the apostles when we come to
Acts. There is a sureness of touch, a certainty, a conviction,
which could not take place until after the events narrated in
the Gospels.”
Two things come to my mind. First, may I suggest that any change
in the apostles after His resurrection can better be attributed
to their finally becoming wholly faithful, John 16:31 Jesus
answered them, Do ye now believe? and to the filling and
empowering of the Holy Spirit, rather than to their acquiring a
plainer understanding of the Father or the many things Jesus had
yet to say to the Church.
Second, that even if the disciples got a plainer version (John
14:5-11 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou
goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father
also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time
with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath
seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us
the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in Me?
The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the
Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works. Believe Me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for
the very works' sake.) of the truth after the resurrection, it
does not automatically follow that they passed it on to us
plainly (which would mean that we still have to get it plainly
someday too).
6. This “I” fellow is the same person who will be “alive and
caught up” when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul was never
meant to be included in this il-luminated group anymore than he
is going to be in the group that is alive on Earth when the Lord
returns. Paul really did know about our pre-earth existence, but
he was forbidden to tell.
7. “Twofold darkness” because, first, it is darkly, ie, the
mirror is not good at all, it is very clouded. Second, it is a
mirror, i.e., the image is backwards from the way it is in
reality. What one sees in a mirror is true, but, at the same
time, it is not true because it is backwards, exactly as Paul
says: now we see through a mirror, ie, backwards. And the
solution is to turn away from the mirror to the new vision, the
eternal and truest way of looking at things.
8. That is, without a new revelation!
9. Perspicuous: clear, easily understood. Nothing like making
the easily understood, perspicuous. I guess it helps to show how
smart we are, which, in the absence of pillars of fire, et
cetera, is very helpful in getting published. Do you think
“formerly perspicuous” might be a good example of still speaking
in proverbs.
10. The parts in brackets are my additions.
11. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth
not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall
appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
12. Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face.
Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel
like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.
Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for
I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved.
Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice
together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when
the LORD shall bring again Zion. “Together” must mean in unity,
right? And the only way that all the denominations of Christian
watchmen could come into unity is if there were a new revelation
of the whole truth for them to all believe in. [font=verdana]
And don't you think that “eye to eye” constitutes an improvement
upon “face to face”? It must be at least as good, right? [/font]
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which
are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. is certainly
in this line of reasoning...
13. Of course at such time as we become perfect (the standard
unCatholic view being that this magically takes place at death
when we all “go to Paradise”) our imperfect view of things would
undergo some radical changes, but Paul is not speaking of us
going to Paradise. He speaks of something coming down to Earth.
Hence, we are not the perfect thing. Others who recognise that
this perfect thing comes down to Earth believe it is Jesus.
Well, it cannot be Jesus Himself because He has appeared to many
and the changes listed here did not take place. Therefore, the
perfect thing can not be Jesus, but must be His “explanation of
everything” to us.
Therefore, the perfect thing that comes to Earth has to be the
revelation of the whole truth, not the perfect Revealer.
And this brings us back to the question: just when will Jesus
give us this new revelation? Will we have to wait until after
Jesus returns, or might He give it to us before He returns?
Well, besides the fact that I have one in my hand, it stands to
reason that GOD could allow various delusions (errors) to exist
among HIS people only until the time just before HIS judgement,
at which time GOD would have to show all of them the straight
and narrow.
I happen to believe that GOD's people are pretty well scattered
through all the denominations, which in turn has to mean that
they all still have to get on the path that is perfect. In other
words, it has not come yet, but it has to come soon. In other
words, maybe this is it. So, maybe you should study it.
14. I think he might have had Haggai 2:6 rattling around in his
mind: Haggai 2:6 Yet once, it is a little while, and I will
shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
And I will shake all nations.
#Post#: 5615--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Comforter shall teach you all things...
By: guest8 Date: May 13, 2019, 9:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=443.msg5598#msg5598
date=1557779470]
[font=times new roman]John 14:26 The Comforter shall teach you
all things.[/font][font=verdana]In regard to this verse, one
must either believe that the Church has already been taught all
things and that we already know all things, OR one must believe
that we still must be taught new things and receive a new
understanding of the revealed facts we presently possess so that
they will truly reveal all things. [/font][font=times new roman]
Because I do not accept that anyone else in the Church knows all
things,[1] I believe that this prophecy from Jesus definitely
leads us to believe that we will receive further teaching, that
is, revelation, in order that it be fulfilled.
John 16:12 I (Jesus) have yet many things to say unto you, but
you cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of
truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. "Many things
to say" must mean many things to reveal. He says that these
unrevealed things would have been revealed but for their
(our[2]) inability to bear them. He goes on to say that when the
Spirit of truth is come, the Church will be led to know all
truth.
I think history proves that this process has not come to
completion yet, for we have not received many new revelations of
the truth since Jesus spoke these words. In fact, we have not
even been brought into a full knowledge of the truth about the
doctrines revealed at His first advent. Since we do not yet know
all the truth, that is, since the Church is not founded on the
whole truth yet, that is, since the Holy Church Christ started
to build has not been finished yet, may I suggest that there has
to be some more leading in this area.
This is the same as saying that revelations and leading which
could not be revealed then will be when we are able to bear
them, that is, when the Spirit of truth is come. Now, some will
undoubtedly want a little discussion to the effect that the
Spirit of truth came at Pentecost. Well it's true that the
Spirit of truth came at Pentecost, but He did not come in a way
that fulfils this prophecy.
Rather, I think that Jesus was correct when He said, in John 9:4
I must work the works[3]of HIM that sent Me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work. I think that the history
of the Church has proven His prediction to be extremely
accurate, for it was not too long after He was "gone" that the
darkness[4] set in, and it seems that it has been allowed to
reign supreme until these times. But, despair not: very soon you
should be able to see for yourself that the Spirit of truth is
now leading you into more truth, much more truth.
This interpretation (that the Spirit of truth still has to come
and lead us into all the truth) is backed up by John 16:25 These
things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time
cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I
shall shew you plainly of the Father. Which time was Jesus
referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in the future (say
like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then
He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He
not?
I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to
ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators)
yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so
plainly yet? In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly,
or does it yet speak to us in proverbs?[5]
Well, we could argue about it for some time, so maybe it would
be good to call in a mutually acceptable authority on the
subject. Let's look at what Paul had to say regarding the
plainness and clarity of the New Testament vision of the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in
part shall be done away. 12 For now we see through a glass
darkly: but then face to face: now I[23] know in part, but then
shall I know even also as I am known.
Grosheide(#5), remarks in his commentary: "Our seeing in this
dispensation is in a mirror darkly. The mirror in antiquity gave
a very poor image (2 Corinthians 3:18). Seeing something through
a mirror only was not seeing the reality. It was like
considering a riddle, which makes one wonder what one really
sees. Our vision is hampered by a twofold darkness[6] and hence
it is in part. We are unable to determine what in our vision is
precisely lacking,[7] for if we could we would have freed
ourselves of the imperfection of the mirror.
The only thing that can be said is that our Lord reveals in a
figure which is formally perspicuous[8] that we, when we see
{now}[9], have not reached perfection. Our {present} vision is
not untrue, but it is imperfect as to its degree. When
perfection has been reached, we shall see face to face, ie, we
shall with our eyes {of our understanding} look straight into
the face of things {reality}; there will be nothing between us
and the things {like GOD's face}.[10][/font] Here again we are
reminded of 1 John 3:2[11] . Passages like Exodus 33:11;
Deuteronomy 34:10 (confer also Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah
52:8[12]) point in the same direction. The subsequent words also
support this interpretation. Nevertheless we maintain that the
vision of GOD, the knowledge of HIM, although not entirely
excluded, still is not the only thing Paul has in view. The
reference is broader, Paul refers to a seeing in which our face
is in immediate opposition with the face of things {like the
whole truth}. "To see," as appears anew, implies a Christian's
entire intellectual life, as is also clear from the word "to
know" in this context.
Well, wee new revelationalists don't find it too hard to agree
with most of his interpretation. In fact, I suppose that only a
few things need to be added.
First, it is plain, as per this commentator's remarks, that Paul
expected that there would be another major revelation given to
the Church.
Second, we need to inquire as to the time of this great change
in the Christian's entire intellectual life or view of
everything. May I suggest that, first, from 1 John 3:2[13]we can
tell that it shall be changed at (by - hence, before) the time
Jesus returns. Second, may I suggest that Isaiah
52:8[14]pinpoints the time even better, for it says that "they"
shall possess it when "the LORD brings again Zion", which event
is definitely prior to His return (because "Israel" has to be
converted before He returns in salvation and judgement, not
after). Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He hath promised, saying, Yet
once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[15]
Would you like to tell me what the word "shake" means in this
context? (I bet you wouldn't!) Maybe we can tell from looking at
the previous divine shakings in history? Let's see. He shook it
when Jesus came (as Jesus of Nazareth and as the glorious Son of
man) and He shook it when Moses came. Any other time you know of
that might qualify as a real shaking? (I don't think Noah
qualifies as a shaking. More akin to a bath, wouldn't you say?)
Well, an interesting thing about these previous shakings is that
they all involved incredible displays of power, and even more
interesting so far as this study is concerned is the fact that
they both involved big doctrinal revelations. Any bets on
whether this yet once more shaking will be any different?
-------------------
Notes for: The Comforter...
1. Since this certainly can not mean being omniscient, “knowing
all things” has to entail not knowing some things.
2. You must include the whole Church.
3. “Work the works” has to mean revealing more truth. Otherwise
we are left with the conclusion that no one has done any work
for GOD since, which I think is a pretty ridiculous
interpretation.
4. “Night - darkness” has to mean standing on those incomplete
revelations of the truth which we have previously received, that
is, not yet having received the whole light - truth. So then, so
far as Jesus was concerned, the New Testament age awareness of
spiritual truth is night-like and in darkness, when it's
compared to what is still to come.
5. Leon Morris(#4) commenting on this word, says: It can mean
parables, but it is also used of a variety of clever sayings of
one kind or another. There is often the implication that the
meaning does not lie on the surface, but must be searched for
and thought about. “Dark sayings” does therefore bring out an
important part of what the word conveys.
Schonfield translates: ‘I have spoken to you enigmatically thus
far.’ Up till now Jesus has spoken figuratively, with the
implication that the figure is not easy to penetrate. The
reference will be to the discourse as a whole rather than to the
immediately preceding figure of the woman in childbirth (which
is fairly obvious; it is not a “dark saying”, even though there
are depths of meaning in it which the disciples are as yet
unable to plumb).
Jesus goes on to refer to “the hour” when He will speak plainly.
One would have expected that this would be now, and, indeed, the
disciples apparently take it this way John 16:29 His disciples
said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no
proverb. Yet Jesus does seem to be looking forward to the time
after the resurrection; John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in
My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for
you... and this was the time when things which had been obscure
began to be clear for them. This is probably the best way to
take the words.
There is a marked difference in the apostles when we come to
Acts. There is a sureness of touch, a certainty, a conviction,
which could not take place until after the events narrated in
the Gospels.”
Two things come to my mind. First, may I suggest that any change
in the apostles after His resurrection can better be attributed
to their finally becoming wholly faithful, John 16:31 Jesus
answered them, Do ye now believe? and to the filling and
empowering of the Holy Spirit, rather than to their acquiring a
plainer understanding of the Father or the many things Jesus had
yet to say to the Church.
Second, that even if the disciples got a plainer version (John
14:5-11 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou
goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father
also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time
with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath
seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us
the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in Me?
The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the
Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works. Believe Me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for
the very works' sake.) of the truth after the resurrection, it
does not automatically follow that they passed it on to us
plainly (which would mean that we still have to get it plainly
someday too).
6. This “I” fellow is the same person who will be “alive and
caught up” when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul was never
meant to be included in this il-luminated group anymore than he
is going to be in the group that is alive on Earth when the Lord
returns. Paul really did know about our pre-earth existence, but
he was forbidden to tell.
7. “Twofold darkness” because, first, it is darkly, ie, the
mirror is not good at all, it is very clouded. Second, it is a
mirror, i.e., the image is backwards from the way it is in
reality. What one sees in a mirror is true, but, at the same
time, it is not true because it is backwards, exactly as Paul
says: now we see through a mirror, ie, backwards. And the
solution is to turn away from the mirror to the new vision, the
eternal and truest way of looking at things.
8. That is, without a new revelation!
9. Perspicuous: clear, easily understood. Nothing like making
the easily understood, perspicuous. I guess it helps to show how
smart we are, which, in the absence of pillars of fire, et
cetera, is very helpful in getting published. Do you think
“formerly perspicuous” might be a good example of still speaking
in proverbs.
10. The parts in brackets are my additions.
11. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth
not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He shall
appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
12. Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face.
Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel
like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.
Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for
I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved.
Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice
together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when
the LORD shall bring again Zion. “Together” must mean in unity,
right? And the only way that all the denominations of Christian
watchmen could come into unity is if there were a new revelation
of the whole truth for them to all believe in. [font=verdana]
And don't you think that “eye to eye” constitutes an improvement
upon “face to face”? It must be at least as good, right? [/font]
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which
are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. is certainly
in this line of reasoning...
13. Of course at such time as we become perfect (the standard
unCatholic view being that this magically takes place at death
when we all “go to Paradise”) our imperfect view of things would
undergo some radical changes, but Paul is not speaking of us
going to Paradise. He speaks of something coming down to Earth.
Hence, we are not the perfect thing. Others who recognise that
this perfect thing comes down to Earth believe it is Jesus.
Well, it cannot be Jesus Himself because He has appeared to many
and the changes listed here did not take place. Therefore, the
perfect thing can not be Jesus, but must be His “explanation of
everything” to us.
Therefore, the perfect thing that comes to Earth has to be the
revelation of the whole truth, not the perfect Revealer.
And this brings us back to the question: just when will Jesus
give us this new revelation? Will we have to wait until after
Jesus returns, or might He give it to us before He returns?
Well, besides the fact that I have one in my hand, it stands to
reason that GOD could allow various delusions (errors) to exist
among HIS people only until the time just before HIS judgement,
at which time GOD would have to show all of them the straight
and narrow.
I happen to believe that GOD's people are pretty well scattered
through all the denominations, which in turn has to mean that
they all still have to get on the path that is perfect. In other
words, it has not come yet, but it has to come soon. In other
words, maybe this is it. So, maybe you should study it.
14. I think he might have had Haggai 2:6 rattling around in his
mind: Haggai 2:6 Yet once, it is a little while, and I will
shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
And I will shake all nations.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Hi Ted.... For those who have read the Bible
for a while, have a understanding of the prophecies within its
pages are corresponding to the time period the reader is living
in.
Take for example... The city of Damascus is destroyed in one
night. This would include the palaces and all.
For the reader up to 1945 this would have been impossible. On
the battle field of the Civil War musket and swords could not do
this. But the Atomic Bomb dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima
changed all of that. A whole city destroyed along with her
inhabitants in a second or two.
We, for all intents and purposes, live in the Past. The present
and the future is on our mind's eye, the smallest accounting of
time (10 to the minus 43 power or a blink of an eye)
The Bible lives in the future for it is always revealing
fulfillments of prophesies in increments. When enough of the
increments happen we begin to recognize the fulfillment. Because
of the different Eschatologies, Ecclesiologies and
Soteriologies, most people cannot see the small fulfillments of
prophesies yet to come.
One of these prophecies that has been being fulfilled by
increments for 2000 years is the Rapture prophecy. By all
accounts, 80-90% of the people of the world do not believe this
will happen according to their Theology, etc. Yet, until this
event happens, the Bible and Christianity will continue to fall
into apostasy.
Almost immediately after this event happens, Millions will gain
a new understanding for the WORD of Jesus Christ and an
evangelism as never seen before will begin. This too will be a
prophecy happening incrementally.
The Last generation, those who see the prophecies of the middle
east come to reality, the rapture, a public knowledge of the
Anti-Christ's name, etc. and live to tell about it will see
Jesus Christ 2nd coming.
Yes, Jesus said what He meant and Jesus meant what He said!
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5636--------------------------------------------------
Re: Progressive Revelation
By: patrick jane Date: May 14, 2019, 8:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Great post Blade. [emoji256]
#Post#: 5970--------------------------------------------------
Re: Progressive Revelation
By: patrick jane Date: May 27, 2019, 11:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations
as Paul did?
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#Post#: 5971--------------------------------------------------
Re: Progressive Revelation
By: guest8 Date: May 28, 2019, 12:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=443.msg5970#msg5970
date=1559017259]
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations
as Paul did?
[shadow=blue,left]PJ... Please define Progressive as you used
it.
Blade[/shadow]
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[/quote]
#Post#: 5972--------------------------------------------------
Re: Progressive Revelation
By: patrick jane Date: May 28, 2019, 12:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=443.msg5971#msg5971
date=1559020880]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=443.msg5970#msg5970
date=1559017259]
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations
as Paul did?
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[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]PJ... Please define Progressive as you used
it. Blade[/shadow][/quote]What I mean is that Paul received many
revelations over time. Over the course of more than a decade I
believe.
#Post#: 5980--------------------------------------------------
Re: Progressive Revelation
By: guest58 Date: May 28, 2019, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=443.msg5970#msg5970
date=1559017259]
Ted, which other Bible authors received progressive revelations
as Paul did?[/quote]
Progressive refers to an addition of facts of previous
revelations about something, which is not understood at the
time, the Divine Messiah being the most obvious. The Jews
thought they knew what the revelation about the Messiah meant
but Jesus told them the truth which they rejected. Even after He
plainly spoke about His divinity, some today still deny him.
That is not because of the falsity of the revelation but because
some have no spiritual ears to hear.
In the case of PCE I think the important aspect is that it has
been a hidden doctrine (progressively revealed) and that is the
main point.
I believe GOD does this so that by turning 90º to the orthodox
interpretation (a non-divine messiah) HE separates those who
love their religion and their place in it above following their
GOD in a new direction (the Divine Messiah). They choose resting
over following, thinking it to be faithful when it is really
rejecting and not listening.
As for those who knew about our pre-conception existence, I have
never compiled a definitive list of believers who I believe
wrote in a hidden way about it but it certainly includes the
writer of Job, David, Solomon, Isaiah and other prophets,
Daniel, and the gospel writers, especially John.
You should be able to see by now that no matter how many
scriptures I quote, (I just got started), the weight of this
interpretation of reality is such that it is
overwhelming...people just don't know what to do with it. They
feel that the verses have strength but cannot follow to the
obvious conclusion, sigh.
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