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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 32357--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 25, 2021, 9:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg32312#msg32312
date=1624603616]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32309#msg32309
date=1624589674]
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg32274#msg32274
date=1624570189]
Genesis 2 ESV
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the
host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had
done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he
had done.
(3) So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on
it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE
theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already
existed by the 7th day.
This one also is used:
Hebrews 7 ESV
(9) One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes,
paid tithes through Abraham,
(10) for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when
Melchizedek met him.
Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he
also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of
(so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.
[/quote]
Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood
tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek
because they are to be from Abraham.
Blade
[/quote]Sure.
The point is that it cannot be said of Levi that he gave tithes
to Melchizedek when Abraham did unless he existed at that time
(in some form within Abraham).
[/quote]
He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.
Blade
#Post#: 32401--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 26, 2021, 5:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg32312#msg32312
date=1624603616]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32309#msg32309
date=1624589674]
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg32274#msg32274
date=1624570189]
Genesis 2 ESV
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the
host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had
done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he
had done.
(3) So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on
it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
The above is scripture that has been used to support the PCE
theology to imply that every host of heaven and earth already
existed by the 7th day.
This one also is used:
Hebrews 7 ESV
(9) One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes,
paid tithes through Abraham,
(10) for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when
Melchizedek met him.
Implying that Levi existed before he was born and therefore he
also gave tithes to Melchiedek because he was already a part of
(so to speak) of Abraham when the tithes were given.
[/quote]
Keep in mind that Levi was a tribe of Israel, a Priesthood
tribe. therefore the priesthood was giving ties to Melchizedek
because they are to be from Abraham.
Blade
[/quote]Sure.
The point is that it cannot be said of Levi that he gave tithes
to Melchizedek when Abraham did unless he existed at that time
(in some form within Abraham).
[/quote]
I knew you back when you were nothing but a little swimmer in
yer daddy's nut sack.
oops... that was supposed to go in the GIANTS thread maybe....
or was it? Tambo said something about not wanting to have to
rake up all the leaves that fall from those big boys. Well no,
not really. See those are conifers. Cone bearing seed
plants--- if you want to get really technical you might say
gymnosperms.
-from the tiniest of seeds..... and that's an image of the tree
of life and in turn, the kingdom of heaven.
#Post#: 32408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest69 Date: June 26, 2021, 7:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32357#msg32357
date=1624674350]
He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.
Blade
[/quote]
As Mr E says sometimes ...... "it is, but it isn't".
If we are to say that Levi paid tithes to Mechizedek because he
was in Abraham, then one logical conclusion would be that Levi
did everything Abraham did.
But we can't say that Levi did everything Abraham did or we
would have to say that Levi also had a miraculous child (like
Isaac), or that Levi lied as Abraham did when he told the king
she was his sister instead of his wife.
The "it is, but it isn't" seems to be a common occurrence in
scripture; which is why it is sometimes difficult to make a
certain scripture verse mean the same in all situations.
#Post#: 32462--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 27, 2021, 4:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg32408#msg32408
date=1624754949]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32357#msg32357
date=1624674350]
He Levi (the tribe) did exist within Abraham's descendants.
Blade
[/quote]
As Mr E says sometimes ...... "it is, but it isn't".
If we are to say that Levi paid tithes to Mechizedek because he
was in Abraham, then one logical conclusion would be that Levi
did everything Abraham did.
But we can't say that Levi did everything Abraham did or we
would have to say that Levi also had a miraculous child (like
Isaac), or that Levi lied as Abraham did when he told the king
she was his sister instead of his wife.
The "it is, but it isn't" seems to be a common occurrence in
scripture; which is why it is sometimes difficult to make a
certain scripture verse mean the same in all situations.
[/quote]
I see what you are saying Tambora but I think your reading too
much into the verse.
God is telling us that He considered Abraham a Levi.
.Ok, so Abraham was a Levi...what does that mean?: I don't know
but under Jacob, all the tribes of Israel are named and God
reveals the Levi tribe as the Priesthood of Israel. God already
knows this little bit of info, right?
therefore, God also considered Abraham as a Levi priest who
happen to give ties to another Priest and King! This is the only
reference to this in the Bible.....as Moses and the Brass
Serpent was until later.
Another Question: Why does GOD make sure we know that Mechizedek
was a King and through the statement about Abraham, he is also a
priest. It will become illegal for anyone under the Laws of
Moses to be a Priest and King at the same time?
It just keeps rolling on, does it not? Just a thought!
Blade
#Post#: 32470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 27, 2021, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think you got that completely backwards there Blade. God
didn't consider Abraham in some manner to be "of Levi" but the
other way around. Levi was in every way "of Abraham."
-but that's not what the chapter is about. The distinction that
is being made is that Melchizedek isn't of Abraham, nor is he of
Levi.... and yet Abraham and all of those who came after him
(including Levi in a manner of speaking as one of Father
Abraham's cone seeds) paid tribute to Melchizedek -- the lessor
(Abraham) paid the tithe to the greater (Melchizedek) and it was
this (greater) Priest who blessed the lessor tithe payer
(Abraham).
Hebrews says that the law dictates that all priests must be
Levites, but Melchizedek was neither a Levite, and not even from
Father Abraham... no one knows his genealogy or where he came
from or who his parents were, but we know not Abraham, and not
Levi. And so Hebrews lays out clearly that it isn't through the
law that the true priesthood is established but through the Son
of God-- through Christ. As further evidence, neither was Jesus
a Levite, but scripture tells us that Jesus (of Judah, chief of
sinners among the brothers) is our Priest forever and of the
order of Melchizedek not because of physical lineage (Jesus was
of Judah) but by means of an indestructible life... by
resurrection.
By all of this we know that Melchizedek too, became a Priest in
the same way (by resurrection) or he would not be the example
given.
What should we make of this?
#Post#: 32476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 27, 2021, 10:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32470#msg32470
date=1624833491]
I think you got that completely backwards there Blade. God
didn't consider Abraham in some manner to be "of Levi" but the
other way around. Levi was in every way "of Abraham."[/quote]
I will agree with that!
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32470#msg32470
date=1624833491]
-but that's not what the chapter is about. The distinction that
is being made is that Melchizedek isn't of Abraham, nor is he of
Levi.... and yet Abraham and all of those who came after him
(including Levi in a manner of speaking as one of Father
Abraham's cone seeds) paid tribute to Melchizedek -- the lessor
(Abraham) paid the tithe to the greater (Melchizedek) and it was
this (greater) Priest who blessed the lessor tithe payer
(Abraham).[/quote]
I will even agree here!
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32470#msg32470
date=1624833491]
Hebrews says that the law dictates that all priests must be
Levites, but Melchizedek was neither a Levite, and not even from
Father Abraham... no one knows his genealogy or where he came
from or who his parents were, but we know not Abraham, and not
Levi. And so Hebrews lays out clearly that it isn't through the
law that the true priesthood is established but through the Son
of God-- through Christ. As further evidence, neither was Jesus
a Levite, but scripture tells us that Jesus (of Judah, chief of
sinners among the brothers) is our Priest forever and of the
order of Melchizedek not because of physical lineage (Jesus was
of Judah) but by means of an indestructible life... by
resurrection.
By all of this we know that Melchizedek too, became a Priest in
the same way (by resurrection) or he would not be the example
given.
What should we make of this?
[/quote]
We know only the Melchizedek was the King of Salem and He was a
Priest, something considered illegal in Israel. Other than that
very little is known about him. We do know that Jesus was a
priest on earth as well as a rejected Messiah (King),long before
His Resurrection.
However, because of the Resurrection and His Grace, the sins of
the world was saved (IF) they would believe the Gospel of Jesus
according to scripture. Those who are justified, will become
Kings and Priest on the same order of Jesus Christ and
Melchizedek.
Blade
#Post#: 32482--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 27, 2021, 11:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Jesus was never a priest on earth. The law dictated that only
Levites could become priests. Jesus was from the tribe of
Judah.
Maybe have a closer reading of Heb 7. I'd venture a guess that
most people miss it, but Hebrews points to another priest
arising... from this same order of Mechizedek. It speaks of our
Lord (Jesus) who was a descendent not of Aaron (the Levite) but
of Judah, and then it says IF ANOTHER priest arises according to
the likeness of Mechizedek -who in turn Heb 7:3 says was himself
made like the Son of God- a priest perpetually.
For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a
tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning
priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises
according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such
not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according
to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of
Him,
“YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”
So Melchizedek was one of these like the Son of God- a priest
forever, and Jesus by resurrection became of this same order of
Priests, and IF another arises according to this same likeness,
this one too would also become one of this same order and a
priest forever.
Scripture, as you mention says that there is a kingdom of heaven
where in spirit we are indeed a kingdom and priests that reign
upon the earth. Few understand what this means. Fewer still
can accept it. And it isn't that corrupt priesthood that Moses
hooked his brother Aaron up with... it's that order of priests
that only consists of the redeemed... the resurrected. When he
comes, dry bones awaken.
HTML https://youtu.be/jzy7p16CBIQ
#Post#: 32483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 28, 2021, 9:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
Jesus was never a priest on earth. The law dictated that only
Levites could become priests. Jesus was from the tribe of
Judah.
Maybe have a closer reading of Heb 7. I'd venture a guess that
most people miss it, but Hebrews points to another priest
arising... from this same order of Mechizedek. It speaks of our
Lord (Jesus) who was a descendent not of Aaron (the Levite) but
of Judah, and then it says IF ANOTHER priest arises according to
the likeness of Mechizedek -who in turn Heb 7:3 says was himself
made like the Son of God- a priest perpetually.[/quote]
Just what would you call His preaching all those years. Yes, He
was from the tribe of Judah yet, the Law ended with John the
Baptist. As you say, Jesus was/is a priest and King following
the order of Mechizedek.
Think it is interesting that Jesus was already a Priest before
Mechizedek was born. Heb 7-3 (KJV)
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a
tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning
priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises
according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such
not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according
to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of
Him,
“YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”
So Melchizedek was one of these like the Son of God- a priest
forever, and Jesus by resurrection became of this same order of
Priests, and IF another arises according to this same likeness,
this one too would also become one of this same order and a
priest forever.[/quote]
God Ordained Jesus as High Priest: Heb 3:1 (KJV).."Wherefore,
holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the
Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
Scripture, as you mention says that there is a kingdom of heaven
where in spirit we are indeed a kingdom and priests that reign
upon the earth. Few understand what this means. Fewer still
can accept it. And it isn't that corrupt priesthood that Moses
hooked his brother Aaron up with... it's that order of priests
that only consists of the redeemed... the resurrected. When he
comes, dry bones awaken.
HTML https://youtu.be/jzy7p16CBIQ
[/quote]
you said:"When he comes, dry bones awaken, . "
Another subject for another time.
Yes, we are translated and redeemed to Heaven, yet as already
being justified, we are all priest(disciples) of sorts for we
spread the WORD of GOD..As you said, we are not part of the
priesthood of the Law but different.
I might add: 1 Jo 3:2.."Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and
it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when
he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as
he is."
Have a safe and productive day, my brother
Blade
#Post#: 32484--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 28, 2021, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32483#msg32483
date=1624889174]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
Jesus was never a priest on earth. The law dictated that only
Levites could become priests. Jesus was from the tribe of
Judah.
Maybe have a closer reading of Heb 7. I'd venture a guess that
most people miss it, but Hebrews points to another priest
arising... from this same order of Mechizedek. It speaks of our
Lord (Jesus) who was a descendent not of Aaron (the Levite) but
of Judah, and then it says IF ANOTHER priest arises according to
the likeness of Mechizedek -who in turn Heb 7:3 says was himself
made like the Son of God- a priest perpetually.[/quote]
Just what would you call His preaching all those years. Yes, He
was from the tribe of Judah yet, the Law ended with John the
Baptist. As you say, Jesus was/is a priest and King following
the order of Mechizedek.
Think it is interesting that Jesus was already a Priest before
Mechizedek was born. Heb 7-3 (KJV)
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a
tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning
priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises
according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such
not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according
to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of
Him,
“YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”
So Melchizedek was one of these like the Son of God- a priest
forever, and Jesus by resurrection became of this same order of
Priests, and IF another arises according to this same likeness,
this one too would also become one of this same order and a
priest forever.[/quote]
God Ordained Jesus as High Priest: Heb 3:1 (KJV).."Wherefore,
holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the
Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32482#msg32482
date=1624854061]
Scripture, as you mention says that there is a kingdom of heaven
where in spirit we are indeed a kingdom and priests that reign
upon the earth. Few understand what this means. Fewer still
can accept it. And it isn't that corrupt priesthood that Moses
hooked his brother Aaron up with... it's that order of priests
that only consists of the redeemed... the resurrected. When he
comes, dry bones awaken.
HTML https://youtu.be/jzy7p16CBIQ
[/quote]
you said:"When he comes, dry bones awaken, . "
Another subject for another time.
Yes, we are translated and redeemed to Heaven, yet as already
being justified, we are all priest(disciples) of sorts for we
spread the WORD of GOD..As you said, we are not part of the
priesthood of the Law but different.
I might add: 1 Jo 3:2.."Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and
it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when
he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as
he is."
Have a safe and productive day, my brother
Blade
[/quote]
I'm sorry-- I still haven't figured out how to break up a
response in sections and use some kind of multi-quote feature...
We likely differ on some aspects here, but to me it matters not.
I don't force agreement on anyone. I'd be happy to tell you
how I read it, if you like.
Hebrews 7:3 isn't speaking about Jesus at all. Rather, that
verse is all about Melchizedek. In this understanding, Jesus
was not "already a priest before Melchizedek was born." In
fact, we know nothing of who this person (Melchizedek) was,
neither who his parents were, or anything about him. His
"tribe" is meaningless, as there were no "tribes" yet. That all
came later through the loins of Abraham, his son (of the
promise) Issac and then in turn his (younger son who stole his
brother's rightful inheritance) Jacob (called Israel, from whom
the 12 tribes would descend).
It was Melchizedek who like the Son of God, had no mother or
father or genealogy to point to--- in other words, this person
we know so little about was the Christ figure incarnate at that
time in the person (flesh) of a man named Melchizedek. There is
only one Christ which is of the Spirit, not of flesh. When this
anointing (spirit) descends upon a person (flesh) they are then
'anointed' and become Christ... Immanuel... God with us. -For a
time.
This is of course a controversial idea not accepted, or perhaps
not even considered by orthodoxy. It also happens to be the
truth of the matter. When the Word of God comes to a person
they become a mouthpiece, a messenger, a prophet, an apostle--
it doesn't matter what they are called, their "calling" is
clear... God says to them- go and they go, speak and they speak
His words. Their words are no longer their own, but they speak
the Word of God by the Spirit that is within them.
As for Jesus-- he was born a man. He was never appointed priest
on earth, just as he was never a king "on earth' because his
kingdom (of priests) is spiritual, not physical. He came as a
man-- and became an apostle (messenger as Heb 3:1 tells us) and
he became a Priest forever in the order of this Melchizedek ---
"of the kind" of Melchizedek who lived before Jesus (preceded
him).
These thoughts reflect a bit of what Ted talks about, but maybe
doesn't fully understand... The pre-existent one is God- and
everything else comes from Him, returns to Him and remains as
such- coming and going as He sees fit in obedience and service
to Him-- our Father, not as slaves, but as sons--children of
God. Those who don't remain are simply cut off, pruned-- like
branches that don't produce fruit, destroyed by fire, consumed.
There's much more that could be said-but that's an intro. :)
#Post#: 32490--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 28, 2021, 12:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32484#msg32484
date=1624895739][font=verdana]These thoughts reflect a bit of
what Ted talks about, but maybe doesn't fully understand... The
pre-existent one is God- and everything else comes from Him,
returns to Him and remains as such- coming and going as He sees
fit in obedience and service to Him-- our Father, not as slaves,
but as sons--children of God. Those who don't remain are simply
cut off, pruned-- like branches that don't produce fruit,
destroyed by fire, consumed.[/font][/quote]
This post has been edited to point out that in it I used
nothing from the editor, no bold, no italics, no change of
colour or size. This mess was created by the editor on simple
text. I feel dismayed, sabotaged and let down...sigh.
Depending on your definition of words I accept a lot this ...
I always refer to our first faith as in YHWH as our GOD and in
the Son as our only saviour from all sin. These are references.
I do not say Christ because that is a worldly reference to an
anointed one and there are many besides the incarnate Son,
Jesus.
I do NOT have a calling to protest niceties of salvation because
my calling is to question the dogma about our fall into sin,
especially the fall of the elect HIS bride. How are some of the
doctrines about our sinfulness NOT blasphemies? How is our
sinfulness to be reconciled with our perfect creation in
innocence if not in righteousness without impugning GOD by that
which is a sin to us.
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