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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 32105--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 21, 2021, 11:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg32035#msg32035
date=1624245950]
Ted, I'm worried that I'm destined for outer darkness and the
pit. Do I still have a chance? :-[ :( [/quote]
From my pov there is nothing to worry about. We decided our own
fates over 6000 years ago. If the gospel of faith,
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]not works, is true
then it also means we are condemned already, Jn 3:18, by our
faith, not works.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Faith is not
measured by how strongly we believe in, accept, an idea but in
how strongly we HOPE for the idea to be true. Heb 11:1
[/font][font=Roboto]Now faith is the substance of things hoped
for, the conviction of things not seen
[/font][font=Roboto][unproven].[/font]
[font=Roboto][/size][/font]
[font=Roboto][/size] Hope without proof is the essence of faith.
Have you the proof you are saved?
[/font][font=Roboto][/size]Probably not but if you hope you are
anyway, that measures faith. And if you hope strong enough to
act on that hope by seeking GOD and
righteous[/font][font=Roboto][/size] living, that too measures
faith.[/font]
It is our faith in Him to be our saviour without any proof that
He is, that separates us from those who have faith they have
nothing to worry about the judgement day because YHWH, if HE
exists, is a liar and a false god and Christ the Son cannot save
anyone from a sin that is a figment of our imaginations... This
is why Prov 9:10 can say '[font=verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif][/size]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of
wisdom...' as it leads to the HOPE to escape the judgement by
some miracle.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]If my faith is a
delusion I am still satisfied as my life is 100% better since my
conversion and repentance, sigh.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I hope this makes
sense and if I write too clumsily, I don't mind rewording. As
you can see, my editor is still not working
right.[size=medium][/font]
#Post#: 32106--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 21, 2021, 12:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32045#msg32045
date=1624289403][font=verdana]How can one speak of God in such
terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in
the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I
never knew you)?[/font]
[/quote]
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.
My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a
loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based
upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD
and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is,
without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to
be HIS Bride, our election. This could be the base for the
biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.
The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation
is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a
knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists
with these people no matter how they live their surface life in
His church.
I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon
your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving
relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.
Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to
their creation at all.
#Post#: 32133--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 21, 2021, 9:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg32106#msg32106
date=1624295568]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32045#msg32045
date=1624289403][font=verdana]How can one speak of God in such
terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in
the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I
never knew you)?[/font]
[/quote]
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.
My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a
loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based
upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD
and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is,
without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to
be HIS Bride, our election. This could be the base for the
biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.
The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation
is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a
knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists
with these people no matter how they live their surface life in
His church.
I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon
your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving
relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.
Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to
their creation at all.
[/quote]
I don't follow your train of thought here at all. The passage
you reference from Jeremiah is clearly talking about before
physical birth. Before development "in the womb." So then it
isn't talking about a physical person at all. It's spiritual.
Yes? It says nothing about knowing someone after they were
created. I take it you are some kind of reformed (former)
Calvinist trying hard to reconcile "election" (predestination)
with it's scriptural shortcomings. Good luck with that. You'll
end up doing exactly what you fault them for doing (an
unwillingness to let go of their preconceptions).
#Post#: 32134--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 21, 2021, 9:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg32106#msg32106
date=1624295568]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32045#msg32045
date=1624289403][font=verdana]How can one speak of God in such
terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in
the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I
never knew you)?[/font]
[/quote]
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.
My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a
loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based
upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD
and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is,
without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to
be HIS Bride, our election. This could be the base for the
biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.
The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation
is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a
knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists
with these people no matter how they live their surface life in
His church.
I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon
your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving
relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.
Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to
their creation at all.
[/quote]
TED..You of course are speaking about Mat 7:21-23. Read the
context...Of course He knew them for He made them even in the
womb they were born from. The phrase had other meanings.
Blade
#Post#: 32147--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 22, 2021, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32133#msg32133
date=1624327981]
I don't follow your train of thought here at all. The passage
you reference from Jeremiah is clearly talking about before
physical birth. Before development "in the womb." So then it
isn't talking about a physical person at all. It's spiritual.
Yes?[/quote]
[font=verdana]The use of spiritual in this context is
confusing... do you mean as a spirit or merely in GOD's
mind?[/font]
[font=verdana]People existed as non-corporeal[/font]
[font=verdana]people [/font][font=verdana]BEFORE the creation of
the[/font]
[font=verdana]physical universe as proven when GOD scolded Job
about where he was[/font]
[font=verdana]when the universe was created. Ignoring the fact
that this only makes[/font]
[font=verdana]sense if Job was there, someone was certainly
there because ALL THE[/font]
[font=verdana]SONS OF GOD sang HIS praises for joy!!! [/font]
[font=verdana]
Job 38:7 ...when the morning stars sang together and all the
s[/font][font=verdana]ons of GOD [/font]
[font=verdana][/font]
[font=verdana]shouted for joy.[/font]
[font=verdana]While we can thank some translators for their
eisegetical help in trying to[/font]
[font=verdana]keep us for being seduced by the dreaded
pre-conception existence[/font]
[font=verdana]doctrine by putting [/font]angels for sons of GOD,
they did in fact substantially
change the meaning of the verse to suit their preconceived bias.
T[font=verdana]he substitution of [/font][font=verdana]angels
[/font][font=verdana]for [/font][font=verdana]sons of GOD[/font]
[font=verdana]is NOT due to any reference such as:[/font]the
sons of God, that is, the angels,[font=verdana], being found in
scripture at all but is in every [/font]place an interpretation
of the only meaning (so they thought) of what sons of GOD must
mean in a context which they had already decided that no human
spirit had been as yet created... exegesis, patooie.
And though ALL does not always mean all as in every person or
thing it certainly can and is used in this way biblically.
So according to this verse from a straightforward meaning of the
words used, if you are a son of GOD, you were there singing HIS
praises for his clear and perfect proof of [font=verdana]HIS
deity and power as we are told every person has seen, Rom
1:18-20 so all are without excuse before HIM.[/font]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32133#msg32133
date=1624327981] It says nothing about knowing someone after
they were created. I take it you are some kind of reformed
(former) Calvinist trying hard to reconcile "election"
(predestination) with it's scriptural shortcomings. Good luck
with that. You'll end up doing exactly what you fault them for
doing (an unwillingness to let go of their
preconceptions).[/quote]
Once this verse as accepted as being the straight truth, I
agree, the theology it implies throughout the rest of scripture
does indeed reconcile the blasphemies of Calvinism, Arminianism
and Catholicism quite well.
If you'd [font=verdana]rather [/font][font=verdana]think that
GOD creates HIS Bride as evil by making her to be born sinful in
Adam with no free will intent to rebel, ie guilty (as proven by
the death of infants) without [/font][font=verdana]mens
rea[/font][font=verdana], then, fine. [/font]
If you'd rather accept that GOD banishes some people to eternal
hell because they are late in repenting (though the ability to
repent is only by grace, sigh) and their ability to repent is
ended by their physical death (though some get 100 years to
repent and others get only 20 years or less) which denigrates
HIS nature of being loving as love is patient and kind and so
perfect love would be perfectly patient and not waiting another
minute or even eon for their death is no kindness...so be it.
How can the belief there are people in hell who could be saved
but He didn't do everything HE could to save them (especially
just by waiting patiently) not be blasphemous??
Orthodoxy has had hundreds of years to write their doublethink
theo-babbe to reconcile their cognitive dissonance over these
contradictions rather than accept one tittle of an
interpretation of what the true words of scripture might mean
instead of their biased interpretation so I know that there is
no dearth of such explanations...I just think for myself they
must be wrong. These people know a bit about theology but they
seem to know nothing of the truth of GOD's loving patience and
justice at all!
#Post#: 32148--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 22, 2021, 12:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Slow down there Sparky. One thing at a time. Also-- it would
help (since you are having technical difficulties) if you would
just forgo trying to use the font features and colors and such.
It's making your posts almost unreadable. Maybe just simplify
things and perhaps limit yourself to bolding words or using
italics for emphasis. Keep it clean Ted.
Now all I was asking about was what you referenced from
Jeremiah. Pretend I've never heard of what you call PCE. If
you were to put it in a nutshell for a newbie like me, how would
you articulate your view?
From what I understand- you believe that all "people" (anyone
ever physically born on earth) pre-existed spiritually (in
spiritual form as spirit beings) with God, prior to being
physically born. Yes?
And then you surmise, that at that time these spirits "chose"
whether to accept or reject Christ (they chose to have a
relationship with him, or not) ahead of their human incarnation-
thus no matter what they did or did not do in their human lives,
the earthly choices they make have no heavenly consequence at
all because their choice had been made before they were even
born. Is that it? Please correct any misunderstanding on my
part and then we can go on.
#Post#: 32151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 22, 2021, 1:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit.
All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same
time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all
saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.
[/quote]
Okay- I now understand a little better where you are coming
from... you are equating 'ben elohim' (sons of God) with these
spirits who were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations
of the earth.
How about the morning stars? --From that same passage in Job it
mentions that 'the morning stars' AND the sons of God were
present. If you focus on one, you shouldn't ignore the other.
If the ben elohim sons of God are the spirit beings that later
become human beings, what then are the morning stars that were
present at the same time-- singing together during the setting
of the cornerstone and the measuring out of that foundation of
the earth?
Romans 1 says that it was through creation of the world that the
invisible became visible. Do you agree? The invisible
attributes of God became visible through creation. Don't you
think that this would hold true in the forming (within the womb)
of man? The invisible attributes of God become visible....
before I formed you in the womb, I knew you....
invisible/spiritual/united -then the invisible becomes visible
in creation.
#Post#: 32153--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 22, 2021, 2:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg32134#msg32134
date=1624328896]
TED..You of course are speaking about Mat 7:21-23. Read the
context...Of course He knew them for He made them even in the
womb they were born from. The phrase had other meanings.
Blade[/quote]
Every phrase of the bible has other meanings...sigh.
My context includes Job 38:7 and Matt 13:36-39 (and all the
other verses I quote which you pan) which imply He moved us to
this world, not that HE created us here which idea leads to all
kinds of blasphemy, which is all very explained away for for
those who like the God who creates evil, believes in inherited
sinfulness and who accept the end of HIS loving patience over
the unforgivable sin of the damned.
#Post#: 32164--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 22, 2021, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32151#msg32151
date=1624387815]
[quote]The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit.
All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same
time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all
saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.
[/quote]
Okay- I now understand a little better where you are coming
from... you are equating 'ben elohim' (sons of God) with these
spirits who were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations
of the earth.[/quote][font=Verdana] Not 'equating' - merely
reporting that those are the words in the text...[/font]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32151#msg32151
date=1624387815][font=Verdana] [/font]How about the morning
stars? --From that same passage in Job it mentions that 'the
morning stars' AND the sons of God were present. If you focus on
one, you shouldn't ignore the other. If the ben elohim sons of
God are the spirit beings that later become human beings, what
then are the morning stars that were present at the same time--
singing together during the setting of the cornerstone and the
measuring out of that foundation of the earth?[/quote]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The morning stars
either [/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- refers to all the
Sons of GOD in Hebraic repetition for effect or[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- they refer to
another group deifferent formthe sons of GOD.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now we know that
there are some of HIS creation who are NOT sons but
illegitimate: [/font][font=TimesNewRomanPSMT]Deuteronomy 32:5
“They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children
because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
[/font]
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.
World English Bible
They have dealt corruptly with him, [they are] not his children,
[it is] their blemish. [They are] a perverse and crooked
generation.
PCE suggests that creation does not make us HIS sons or this
could not be written, ie equating illegitimacy to perversity.
Therefore, on the basis of Col 1:23 suggesting that the
proclamation of of the gospel was a finished, fully completed
act heard by EVERY creature under heaven, implying even the ones
sown into mankind (Matt 13:36-34) and that this precipitated us
to choose to believe it or not, a choice which separated all of
creation into elect or non-elect by where each person put his
faith.
Since a free will decision by faith, which is an unproven hope,
must be by definition unproven, we can see that once the proof
is given, then no more free will to accept or deny HIS gospel is
available. The creation of the physical universe was the proof
that locked the non-elect into their need to bow to sin and
continue to exchange the truth they clearly saw and knew for the
lie because they now loved sin more as per Rom 1:18 to the end.
This the creation of the physical universe had to happen AFTER
everyone had chosen their eternal relationship with YHWH as HIS
elect or as HIS eternal enemies...and the stupendous nature of
the creation as the proof of HIS deity and power caused even
those totally opposed to HIM, as a liar and a false
god,[font=Verdana][/size] that is[/font][font=Verdana][/size],
the morning stars,[/font][font=Verdana][/size] sang HIS praises
for joy, even as they knew they were doomed to hell for their
unforgivable sin.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/size][/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/size]Which
scenario this might be, I do not profess to know.[/font]
[quote author=Mr E link=topic=442.msg32151#msg32151
date=1624387815][font=Verdana] [/font]
Romans 1 says that it was through creation of the world that the
invisible became visible. Do you agree? The invisible
attributes of God became visible through creation. Don't you
think that this would hold true in the forming (within the womb)
of man? The invisible attributes of God become visible....
before I formed you in the womb, I knew you....
invisible/spiritual/united -then the invisible becomes visible
in creation.
[/quote] The invisible att[font=Verdana]ributes of HIS
dei[/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/size]ty
and power were made visible that is PROVEN, by the creation of
the physical universe to all those (whomever they were) who were
watching!![/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Where is there any
hint that it was not us who were watching before we were sown
into our earthly bodies by either Christ or the devil, Matt
13:36-30? ? There is not one verse in the bible that says
straight out or even hints obliquely that our pre-conception
existence is impossible.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][I chose nothing
except bold from the eding menu, not my keyboard - the editing
difficulties are not made by me...so I hope to be left alone
about it and that it gets fixed!][size=78%][/font]
#Post#: 32174--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 22, 2021, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I offered you a simple solution regarding the text/font/color
difficulties. Stop doing it.
As it is-- it's undreadable.
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