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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 24089--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: January 22, 2021, 10:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg23570#msg23570
date=1610329911]
Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never
asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that
and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation,
even as we will not remember that time or that decision.
[/quote]Ted, did you miss this post from me?
#Post#: 24098--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: January 23, 2021, 5:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg23570#msg23570
date=1610329911]
Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never
asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that
and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation,
even as we will not remember that time or that decision.[/quote]
I did indeed miss this post from you... :(
I believe we made a decision to put our faith in YHWH and HIS
claims 1. to be the truth from our creator GOD, becoming elect,
OR 2. as lies from a false god, being condemned to the outer
darkness from that instant.
I'm also convinced that we knew that this would end with the
judgment of all those who rejected HIM as their GOD but any
elect who chose to rebel against HIS commands were promised
[font=Verdana]salvation [/font][font=Verdana]by the work of the
Son. Election was indeed a promise of salvation if it was ever
needed.[/font]
But I am not convinced that we knew that the physical universe
would be created nor that all sinners would become humans Matt
13:36-39, and the sinful elect would have to live with the
reprobate tares until we were fully sanctified, ie, made holy,
ie made to be heaven ready: Heb 12:5-11.
If not, no one asked to be born human and some elect may have
been dismayed when they were flung down to S[font=Verdana]heol
in the centre of the earth to await their turn to be sown,
planted, into mankind.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]PS, do you see the
small print in the last line? I've had to fix 3 or 4 other
places by changing the font size but sometimes, as here, it will
not take. Neither are the 'remove formatting' and 'toggle view'
buttons working for me, sigh.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Don't hesitate to
ask again if I missed something...[/font]
#Post#: 24099--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: January 23, 2021, 5:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg23577#msg23577
date=1610380263][font=times new roman]TED, I am a 5-point
Calvinist... It is a doctrine in the Word of GOD as well as the
free-will we experience demonstrated in John 3:16 and many other
places....How GOD Reconciles these two together, I do not know
...[/font][/quote][font=times new roman] There is a complete and
harmonious reconciliation of these doctrines in PCE but they are
heretical to 5 pt. Calvinism.[/font]
PCE rests upon two of the strongest statements in the Bible:
1. GOD is love.
2. GOD is light.
Any doctrine that has a hint of putting these two verses into
disrepute should be denied and reworked to make them fit the
meaning of these two verses... but not by the sophistry of many
words.
Can the proof verses be interpreted to mean what the 5 points
claim? Of course but then either HIS love must be rearranged so
the creation of evil people is loving or the definition of light
must be reworked to prove that light can create dark.
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg23577#msg23577
date=1610380263][font=times new roman]It is very dangerous. HOW?
WELL...According to 1 Cor 15:1-4, we are to believe in the
Gospel of Jesus Christ according to scripture. In other words,
How can one truly believe in Jesus Christ if they delete, add,
change etc. the WORD of GOD to make it fit their lifestyle
and./or worldview. It is very dangerous territory and only
GOD will determine just how dangerous to the human soul it is.
Blade[/font][/quote]
[font=times new roman]Unless you claim to have had a personal
revelation from GOD or that Calvin had a personal revelation
from GOD, then all your doctrines have been made to fit his and
your lifestyle and/or worldview...[/font]
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning
of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset
and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's
conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every
interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse
into previously accepted definitions.
#Post#: 31954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest73 Date: June 19, 2021, 2:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5581#msg5581
date=1557688515]
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...
Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence
except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE
then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the
world believed.
But I do think the Bible supports PCE.
As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two
distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other.
There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I
don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it
does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will
never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru
and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced
inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals
(proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.
To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be
redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in
one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
[/quote]I'm interested in the "sinful animals" Ted, I think of
animals as acting on instinct, therefore sinless.
#Post#: 31959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: June 19, 2021, 10:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5581#msg5581
date=1557688515]
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...
Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence
except Christianity. [/quote]
This sounds political, like the government...Most of Americans
believe this and that..
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=442.msg31954#msg31954
date=1624129840]
IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not
accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.
But I do think the Bible supports PCE. [/quote]
Now it is the rest of the world believing
If the world as you say "pre-existed" (the gap between verse 1
and 2 Genesis.),
How does that affect the rest of the Bible. Answer: It does not!
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=442.msg31954#msg31954
date=1624129840]
As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two
distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other.
There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I
don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it
does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will
never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru
and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced
inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals
(proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.
To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be
redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in
one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
[/quote]I'm interested in the "sinful animals" Ted, I think of
animals as acting on instinct, therefore sinless.
[/quote]
sounds like this is wishful thinkng... and It is not the gospel
of Jesus Christ. (1 COR 15:1-4)
Blade
#Post#: 31963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: June 19, 2021, 10:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg31959#msg31959
date=1624158450]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5581#msg5581
date=1557688515]
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...
Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence
except Christianity. [/quote]
This sounds political, like the government...Most of Americans
believe this and that..
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=442.msg31954#msg31954
date=1624129840]
IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE then I would not
accept it, not matter what the rest of the world believed.
But I do think the Bible supports PCE. [/quote]
Now it is the rest of the world believing
If the world as you say "pre-existed" (the gap between verse 1
and 2 Genesis.),
How does that affect the rest of the Bible. Answer: It does not!
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=442.msg31954#msg31954
date=1624129840]
As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two
distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other.
There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I
don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it
does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will
never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru
and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced
inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals
(proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.
To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be
redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in
one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
[/quote]I'm interested in the "sinful animals" Ted, I think of
animals as acting on instinct, therefore sinless.
[/quote]
sounds like this is wishful thinkng... and It is not the gospel
of Jesus Christ. (1 COR 15:1-4)
Blade
[/quote]Blade you're in top form tonight.
#Post#: 31968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 20, 2021, 11:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jesus Truth link=topic=442.msg31954#msg31954
date=1624129840]I'm interested in the "sinful animals" Ted, I
think of animals as acting on instinct, therefore
sinless.[/quote]
Please consider:
1. The serpent was [font=verdana]said to be
[/font][font=verdana]cunning in evil above, more than, the other
animals which implies they were somewhat crafty also. [/font]
2. The serpent was cursed above all the other animals which
implies that they were cursed for sinfulness too, just not a
strongly as he was.
3. When the earth was cleansed of the wickedness of men by
Noah's flood, HIS regret over having made men specifically
includes the animals as partakers of the wickedness HE
condemned, Gen 6:7.
What is said about three witnesses in agreement?
#Post#: 31969--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: June 20, 2021, 12:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg31963#msg31963
date=1624160029]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg31959#msg31959
date=1624158450][font=Verdana]If the world as you say
"pre-existed" (the gap between verse 1 and 2 Genesis.),How does
that affect the rest of the Bible. Answer: It does not!
Blade
[/font][/quote][font=Verdana]Blade you're in top form tonight.
[/font][/quote][font=Verdana]
IF PCE is true it does away with the need to see GOD as creating
HIS people as sinful by means of having them to be born into
Adam's sin either as a natural system or as a system to punish
Adam.
PCE makes every person on earth a sinner by their own free will,
not by GOD's will...light cannot create darkness. Those who end
in hell end there by their own decision when they chose to put
their their faith in the definition of GOD as a liar and a false
god, not by HIS will but by their own.
It goes to our definition of GOD, HIS attributes and HIS purpose
for our creation.
Those who worship a GOD they call good who creates sin because
HE needs it for some such reason tread dangerously close to the
Woe of
[/font][table][tr][td][font=Verdana][/font][center][font=Verdana
][/font][table][tr][td][font=Verdana][/font][table][tr][td][font
=Verdana]
[font=times new roman]Isaiah
5:20[/font][/font][/td][/tr][/table][font=Verdana][/font][/td][/
tr][/table][font=Verdana][/font][/center][font=Verdana][/font][f
ont=Verdana][/font][table][tr][td][font=Verdana][/font][center][
font=Verdana][/font][table][tr][td][font=Verdana][/font][table][
tr][td][font=Verdana]
[font=times new roman]
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and
sweet for bitter.[/font]
[/font][/td][/tr][/table][font=Verdana][/font][/td][/tr][/table]
[font=Verdana][/font][/center][font=Verdana][/font][font=Verdana
][/font][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
#Post#: 32035--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: June 20, 2021, 10:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ted, I'm worried that I'm destined for outer darkness and the
pit. Do I still have a chance? :-[ :(
#Post#: 32045--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest125 Date: June 21, 2021, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg10935#msg10935
date=1583867272]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg10896#msg10896
date=1583786548]
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??
So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs
a lot vs a little) God really is.
Blade[/quote] Perception or interpretation....
Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT
someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the
demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew
thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!
To know someone is different from to know about them and implies
a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.
When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation
and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation
then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb
fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship
with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all
about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom
He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles
in His name.
There has to be a difference in these expression and that is
reflected in the doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone
before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a
relationship is developed between them on the order of using to
know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and
abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child,
we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I
knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as
saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the
time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean
something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use
of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they
exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it
upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so
they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the
imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.
We makes our choice and we sticks to it...
[/quote]
I'm sorry I clicked a button I don't know how to unclick... I
didn't mean to "dislike" your post, in fact I like this topic
very much. I haven't spent any time looking into your PCE
theories, but am happy to do so now and hopefully we can have a
good discussion.
Can I offer an alternative idea to consider? As often happens
with me, I see things in a broader sense as concepts or images,
rather than black and white- this or that. More often than not,
something is 'this AND that.' I see in pictures, in words, in
songs in stories and in dreams that combine all of these things,
so for me- when something comes to mind... I consider it.
How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone
(before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having
known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?
You point correctly to 'the biblical sense' of the word that
conveys the meaning of "knowing" someone (in the biblical way).
In other words-- a person (in the broadest sense of personhood)
was in the beginning, or even before the beginning in keeping
with your theology-- "known" (united) with God before they
became a person (in the narrower sense of human ((physical))
existence) but later at the appointed time of judgment, that
person becomes unknown in the same sense of meaning-- no longer
united. It's saying 'Depart from me- we were never joined
together.' -and it's referring to that human soul or spirit
that returned to God to stand before the throne to be weighed in
the balance.
In a sense "knowing" is a state of union. If one 'begins' with
God (in union) and returns either to union there is no ending.
Those cut off from the branch are only those not united (not
known) and only then does one face the fire of destruction. In
this sense it isn't so much a matter of beginnings and endings,
but rather of remaining, or being cut off.
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