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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 8441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: October 21, 2019, 12:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth
existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is
possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as
the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to
infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of
our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine
suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not
recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.
Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life:
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a
prophet to the nations." Everyone when they first read this
says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the
womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this
but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is
rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious
that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to
ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in
HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine...that
is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the
meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine... ie, pure
eisegesis!
That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as
something else for centuries means that you can read them and
never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can
you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence
though the best will mention it.
#Post#: 10893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: March 9, 2020, 2:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5566#msg5566
date=1557612673]
Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or
synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is
transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the
material aspect of human beings.
Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some
Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is
generated by physical conception.
The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All
spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same
time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all
saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.
In this forum I will discuss as I can the scriptures in support
of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so
rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a
total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of
the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d
rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.
Of course I do not take my interpretation to be the only option
- I present it to encourage lateral thinking about the
blasphemies underlying Christian doctrine to encourage a search
for the best solution. I do not believe there is any one or two
verses that are so perfect they prove without doubt that PCE is
true any more than there are any such verses that prove
Calvinism, Arminianism or Catholicism are true.
I also challenge anyone to find even one verse that even simply
implies that PCE might be theologically impossible - waste all
the time you want on this one; it is not there.
I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon
and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you
know of any blasphemies at the base of Christian orthodoxy? If
not, why not? Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have
never come across anything that someone has suggested is a
blasphemy at the base of Christianity? Should be fun, eh?
Here are some hints for understanding the posts in this
section: When it asks you a question, try to answer it. Don't
put finding the answer off. Secondly, don't read it so fast. You
will notice that you just can't breeze over it and have it make
sense immediately. On the other hand, it will make good sense if
you go slow and answer the questions (or, at least, try to).
You're going to have to do some work to see things this way.
Blessed are those who are hungry enough to do the work, at
least, that's what everyone says who has already worked hard
enough to have climbed this mountain. They all say that the view
is absolutely out of this world, and that the fruit at the top
is even better, definitely worth the effort.
[/quote]Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved
better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I
began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think
and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but
what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the
fruit?
#Post#: 10896--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: March 9, 2020, 3:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg8441#msg8441
date=1571679601]
That you have never seen an interpretation of our pre-earth
existence in the bible does NOT mean it is not there when it is
possible that our being created on earth bias has taken over as
the ONLY interpretation. A verse that can be interpreted to
infer our pre-earth existence but which is ignored because of
our created on earth bias is called a hint, just like the Divine
suffering Messiah was hinted at throughout the scripture but not
recognized due to the bias of the rabbis.
Take the most well known verse that hints at our pre-earth life:
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a
prophet to the nations." Everyone when they first read this
says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the
womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this
but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning that is
rejected due to a theological position is a hint. It is obvious
that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to
ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in
HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine...that
is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the
meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine... ie, pure
eisegesis!
That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as
something else for centuries means that you can read them and
never even see that they might contain a hint to pce, nor can
you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence
though the best will mention it.
[/quote]
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??
So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs
a lot vs a little) God really is.
Blade
#Post#: 10932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: March 10, 2020, 1:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg10893#msg10893
date=1583781725]Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you
deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and
then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read,
think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation
but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the
fruit?
[/quote]No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed
and appreciated!
I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't
focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that
the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became
naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as
being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was
the fall before the foundation of the world?
I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our
salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was
whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as
our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and
false god.
I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever
created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox
thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you
heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under
heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. as the
call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a
free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and
some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that
HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally
unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for
destruction.
This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my
insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a
free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full
exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how
the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will
not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus
of your question.
#Post#: 10934--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: March 10, 2020, 1:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg10932#msg10932
date=1583863922]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg10893#msg10893
date=1583781725]Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you
deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and
then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read,
think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation
but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the
fruit?
[/quote]No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed
and appreciated!
I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't
focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that
the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became
naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as
being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was
the fall before the foundation of the world?
I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our
salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was
whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as
our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and
false god.
I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever
created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox
thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you
heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under
heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. as the
call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a
free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and
some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that
HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally
unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for
destruction.
This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my
insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a
free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full
exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how
the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will
not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus
of your question.
[/quote]Thank you Ted, let me read this post several times as I
ponder and meditate on it. I will certainly reply soon. God
willing.
#Post#: 10935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: March 10, 2020, 2:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg10896#msg10896
date=1583786548]
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??
So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs
a lot vs a little) God really is.
Blade[/quote] Perception or interpretation....
Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT
someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the
demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew
thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!
To know someone is different from to know about them and implies
a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.
When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation
and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation
then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb
fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship
with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all
about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom
He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles
in His name.
There has to be a difference in these expression and that is
reflected in the doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone
before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a
relationship is developed between them on the order of using to
know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and
abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child,
we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I
knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as
saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the
time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean
something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use
of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they
exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it
upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so
they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the
imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.
We makes our choice and we sticks to it...
#Post#: 10936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: March 10, 2020, 7:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg10935#msg10935
date=1583867272]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg10896#msg10896
date=1583786548]
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??
So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs
a lot vs a little) God really is.
Blade[/quote] Perception or interpretation....
Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT
someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the
demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew
thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!
To know someone is different from to know about them and implies
a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.
When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation
and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation
then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb
fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship
with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all
about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom
He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles
in His name.
There has to be a difference in these expression and that is
reflected in the doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone
before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a
relationship is developed between them on the order of using to
know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and
abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child,
we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I
knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as
saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the
time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean
something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use
of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they
exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it
upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so
they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the
imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.
We makes our choice and we sticks to it...
[/quote]
Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never
knew them?
Blade
#Post#: 10950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: March 11, 2020, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Have you been close to someone only to find out later,
you never knew them?Blade[/quote]Do you mean because they hid
their true nature from me?? No one hides from the Living GOD,
Blade.
Jesus said there were people who would claim to be of Him whom
He NEVER knew!!! This has to make sense somehow in light of the
fact He created us, He elected us, He sowed, planted, us into
mankind (Matt 13:37-38) so how could He NEVER know some of us???
The only thing that makes sense is that HE had a prior good
relationship with those called the good seed aka His sheep whom
He knew and loved but who went astray into sin but now are
RETURNING to Him through the gift of grace: 1 Peter 2:25 For
"you were like sheep going astray," but now you have RETURNED to
the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. When were you one His
sheep before you were created sinful in Adam? In Adam's sin you
believe we are are spiritually separated from GOD until rebirth
so when were we His sheep in our sin?
How did we go astray into sin if we had no choice to sin nor
opportunity to be anything but sinful in Adam? Either He did
not pay attention to us or our sin was due to some rebellion in
us...and which is more likely that our sin is His fault for not
being a good Shepherd or our rebellion? None of this makes any
sense whatsoever without our pre-earth faith in Him by which we
became His sheep, aka His elect, aka His good seed, and then
rebelled against Him, pre-conception.
#Post#: 23570--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: January 10, 2021, 7:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never
asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that
and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation,
even as we will not remember that time or that decision.
#Post#: 23577--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: January 11, 2021, 9:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg23570#msg23570
date=1610329911]
Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never
asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that
and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation,
even as we will not remember that time or that decision.
[/quote]
Quote from: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm
In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know
someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about
them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it
upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so
they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the
imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.
TED, I am a 5-point Calvinist... It is a doctrine in the Word of
GOD as well as the free-will we experience demonstrated in John
3:16 and many other places....How GOD Reconciles these two
together, I do not know but I do know that both of them are
doctrines of GOD and one cannot throughout what they don't like.
It is very dangerous. HOW? WELL...According to 1 Cor 15:1-4, we
are to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to
scripture. In other words, How can one truly believe in Jesus
Christ if they delete, add, change etc. the WORD of GOD to make
it fit their lifestyle and./or worldview. It is very
dangerous territory and only GOD will determine just how
dangerous to the human soul it is.
Blade
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