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DIR Return to: Biblical Pre-Conception Existence Theology (PCE)
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#Post#: 5566--------------------------------------------------
Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: May 11, 2019, 5:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or
synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is
transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the
material aspect of human beings.
Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some
Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is
generated by physical conception.
The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All
spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same
time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all
saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.
In this forum I will discuss as I can the scriptures in support
of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so
rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a
total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of
the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d
rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.
Of course I do not take my interpretation to be the only option
- I present it to encourage lateral thinking about the
blasphemies underlying Christian doctrine to encourage a search
for the best solution. I do not believe there is any one or two
verses that are so perfect they prove without doubt that PCE is
true any more than there are any such verses that prove
Calvinism, Arminianism or Catholicism are true.
I also challenge anyone to find even one verse that even simply
implies that PCE might be theologically impossible - waste all
the time you want on this one; it is not there.
I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon
and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you
know of any blasphemies at the base of Christian orthodoxy? If
not, why not? Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have
never come across anything that someone has suggested is a
blasphemy at the base of Christianity? Should be fun, eh?
Here are some hints for understanding the posts in this
section: When it asks you a question, try to answer it. Don't
put finding the answer off. Secondly, don't read it so fast. You
will notice that you just can't breeze over it and have it make
sense immediately. On the other hand, it will make good sense if
you go slow and answer the questions (or, at least, try to).
You're going to have to do some work to see things this way.
Blessed are those who are hungry enough to do the work, at
least, that's what everyone says who has already worked hard
enough to have climbed this mountain. They all say that the view
is absolutely out of this world, and that the fruit at the top
is even better, definitely worth the effort.
#Post#: 5567--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: May 11, 2019, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5566#msg5566
date=1557612673]
Theories of the creation of Spirits in GOD’s image
Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul or
synonymously, spirit, holding that this immaterial aspect is
transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the
material aspect of human beings.
Creationism of the soul / spirit is a doctrine held by some
Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is
generated by physical conception.
The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All
spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same
time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all
saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.
In this forum I will present as I can the scriptures in support
of PCE. I have studied this theory for circa 40 years so
rebuttal designed to teach me what orthodoxy says will be a
total waste of time and energy. Better would be an exegesis of
the verses I use to prove I’ve missed their meaning, ie, I’d
rather discuss interpretation than ortho doctrine.
I will also visit the blasphemies that orthodoxy is founded upon
and discuss the PCE alternatives. As a challenge I ask: Do you
know of any blasphemies at the base of Cristian orthodoxy? If
not, why not?Are you not educated bible scholars yet you have
never come across anything that someone has suggested is a
blasphemy at the base of Chrisitany? Should be fun, eh?
[/quote]Very interesting and I think supported. I read some
interesting testimony from Edgar Cayce who many say was in touch
with the spirit of God and he said all souls were created in the
beginning and none have been created since. He also talked about
reincarnation while in a trance like state. He could speak other
languages and could see and know things in the trance that he
did not know when he was awake.
I'm not trying to change the subject nor am I relating PCE to
Edgar Cayce or reincarnation. I'm only relaying what I read as I
was reading that book before I started reading the Bible. Thank
you Ted, I will enjoy your posts very much.
#Post#: 5581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: May 12, 2019, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...
Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence
except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE
then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the
world believed.
But I do think the Bible supports PCE.
As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two
distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other.
There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I
don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it
does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will
never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru
and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced
inevitably. It may also account for the sinfulness of animals
(proven later) if they are inhabited by 'dead' sinful spirits.
To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be
redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in
one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
#Post#: 5728--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: patrick jane Date: May 18, 2019, 11:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5581#msg5581
date=1557688515]
Edgar Cayce, my my, a name from long long ago...
Most of the world believes in some form of pre-earth existence
except Christianity. IF I did not think the Bible supported PCE
then I would not accept it, not matter what the rest of the
world believed.
But I do think the Bible supports PCE.
As for reincarnation, I think reincarnation and PCE are two
distinct and separate theologies, not corollaries of each other.
There is room in PCE for the reincarnation of the non-elect. I
don't think their reincarnation does them any good at all but it
does bear witness to the sinful elect that these reprobate will
never, can never, change no matter how many lives they live thru
and therefore their end in the outer darkness is a forced
inevitably.
To think that the sinful elect need more than one life to be
redeemed casts aspersion upon HIS ability to deal with them in
one lifetime, so I reject reincarnation for the elect on earth.
[/quote]Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made
prior to creation?
#Post#: 5736--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: May 19, 2019, 1:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg5728#msg5728
date=1558241236]
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to
creation?[/quote]
I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners
repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more
than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of
becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those
under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18 Whoever believes in him
is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because they have not believed in the name of God's one
and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under
condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression
in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to
the uncondemned sinful elect also.
Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death
as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the
theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth
as our home might exist.
#Post#: 5740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: May 19, 2019, 9:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg5736#msg5736
date=1558289473]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=442.msg5728#msg5728
date=1558241236]
Ted, why do we have no memory of this decision we made prior to
creation?[/quote]
I read the answer in Romans 1 where it talks about sinners
repressing, suppressing, the truth becomes they love sin more
than the truth. It is one of the more pernicious effects of
becoming a sinner, sigh. Romans does speak specifically to those
under HIS wrath and I believe John 3:18 Whoever believes in him
is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because they have not believed in the name of God's one
and only Son. tells us that sinful believers are never under
condemnation, ie, wrath, but I have experienced this repression
in myself in my sin so I am comfortable thinking it applies to
the uncondemned sinful elect also.
Also, there is whole Christian sub-culture that insists on death
as a return home which is perfectly PCE even without the
theology and it implies that some residual memory of pre-earth
as our home might exist.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]This follows the Gap theory between Genesis
1:1 and Genesis 1:2
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5765--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: May 20, 2019, 12:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=442.msg5740#msg5740
date=1558318494]
This follows the Gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis
1:2[/quote] Believing in the Deity of Christ does not make a
Calvinist nor Arminian a Catholic. Similar aspects are
differentiated by the bulk of the theology.
#Post#: 7899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest69 Date: September 12, 2019, 2:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have heard this theory expressed in many ways.
One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to consent to
becoming man (a physical creation in the physical creation of
earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed
with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble
himself to a lower state.
#Post#: 7927--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest58 Date: September 13, 2019, 2:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg7899#msg7899
date=1568315971]
I have heard this theory expressed in many
ways.[/quote][font=Verdana] Which theory"? The GAP theory which
I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in
PCE traditions:[/font]
[quote]One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to
consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical
creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed
with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble
himself to a lower state.[/quote]
Now this is fanciful, :)
Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to
GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF
they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no
one who can be saved will not be saved.
Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF
darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and
Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom
1:21[sup]+[/sup]
Revelation 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of
the sky and flung them to the earth.
Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke
out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was
not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven
for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled
down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the
deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his
angels with him. Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment
from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a
third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started,
I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came
under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use
to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got
them out of his way, before the war started.
Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were
sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to
be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds
and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said,
“EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He
said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and
the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the
sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the
wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to /
return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is
the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked
are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven.
The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV,
just not here in this verse.
#Post#: 7994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
By: guest8 Date: September 18, 2019, 8:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=442.msg7927#msg7927
date=1568404534]
[quote author=Tambora link=topic=442.msg7899#msg7899
date=1568315971]
I have heard this theory expressed in many
ways.[/quote][font=Verdana] Which theory"? The GAP theory which
I reject or PCE which I espouse? I do not find the following in
PCE traditions:[/font]
[quote]One was that all the pre-created spirit beings had to
consent to becoming man (a physical creation in the physical
creation of earth).
Satan/Lucifer would not consent and that is why he was cursed
with no chance of redemption.
Satan thought he should rise to a higher state, not humble
himself to a lower state.[/quote]
Now this is fanciful, :)
Please consider:
Satan and his crew sinned the unforgivable sin of attributing to
GOD evil in HIS nature, in HIS intent and in HIS actions. IF
they were still forgivable then they would be forgiven; ie, no
one who can be saved will not be saved.
Then he and his were flung to the earth and bound by chains OF
darkness ie blinded to the truth of YHWH's Divinity and
Righteousness by their own desire to be evil, Rom
1:21[sup]+[/sup]
Revelation 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of
the sky and flung them to the earth.
Flung is the same word used twice in Rev 12:7 Then a war broke
out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was
not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven
for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled
down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the
deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his
angels with him. Since flung has a meaning of harsh treatment
from anger and it is also a strange thing for Satan to dispel a
third of his cohorts BEFORE the war with Michael et al started,
I suggest that the 1/3 he flung to earth were the elect who came
under his spell and sinned which, though sinners, were of no use
to him (since they were elect) therefore he rejected them, got
them out of his way, before the war started.
Thus all sinners, elect sinners and eternally evil sinners, were
sent to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their time to
be sown into the world as per Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds
and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said,
“EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He
said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and
the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the
sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil...to which the
wicked return upon death: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back to /
return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is
the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked
are punished by being sent to back to Sheol instead of heaven.
The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV,
just not here in this verse.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Your PCE theology would make a good science
fiction book.
Blade[/shadow]
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