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DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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#Post#: 9673--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 14, 2020, 8:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
#Post#: 9695--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: January 15, 2020, 7:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
#Post#: 9702--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 15, 2020, 10:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9695#msg9695
date=1579137024]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
[/quote]
There are several scholars that have their own views, some
around 3 BC and some around 4 BC. What I told you was what I
believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many
times by several scholars and backup up by historical records.
Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was
easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in
verses here and there and comparing them to historical
records.....
God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they
are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus
where Jesus was raised.
Look to Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)
*****
[color=orange]you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her
children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't
fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
[color=orange]I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but
scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in
these cases.[/color]
Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...
I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did
I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions
that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and
look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...
And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my
postings......That is their right. If you do not agree it is
ok.....
Blade[/color]
#Post#: 9709--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: January 16, 2020, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9702#msg9702
date=1579150529]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9695#msg9695
date=1579137024]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
[/quote]
There are several scholars that have their own views, some
around 3 BC and some around 4 BC. What I told you was what I
believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many
times by several scholars and backup up by historical records.
Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was
easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in
verses here and there and comparing them to historical
records.....
God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they
are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus
where Jesus was raised.
Look to Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)
*****
[color=orange]you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her
children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't
fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
[color=orange]I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but
scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in
these cases.[/color]
Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...
I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did
I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions
that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and
look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...
And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my
postings......That is their right. If you do not agree it is
ok.....
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether
Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we
look at the OT references and you only reference one and then
only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's
not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm
left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't
try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers"
argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.
#Post#: 9720--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 16, 2020, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9709#msg9709
date=1579174590]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9702#msg9702
date=1579150529]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9695#msg9695
date=1579137024]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
[/quote]
There are several scholars that have their own views, some
around 3 BC and some around 4 BC. What I told you was what I
believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many
times by several scholars and backup up by historical records.
Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was
easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in
verses here and there and comparing them to historical
records.....
God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they
are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus
where Jesus was raised.
Look to Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)
*****
[color=orange]you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her
children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't
fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
[color=orange]I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but
scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in
these cases.[/color]
Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...
I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did
I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions
that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and
look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...
And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my
postings......That is their right. If you do not agree it is
ok.....
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether
Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we
look at the OT references and you only reference one and then
only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's
not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm
left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't
try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers"
argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.
[/quote]
You said:"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT."
There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of
Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of
His (Jesus) ascension.
Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew
himself.
Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words,
punctuation, etc. in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line
for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and
expects us to find them........
Blade
#Post#: 9787--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: January 19, 2020, 2:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9720#msg9720
date=1579193637]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9709#msg9709
date=1579174590]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9702#msg9702
date=1579150529]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9695#msg9695
date=1579137024]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
[/quote]
There are several scholars that have their own views, some
around 3 BC and some around 4 BC. What I told you was what I
believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many
times by several scholars and backup up by historical records.
Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was
easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in
verses here and there and comparing them to historical
records.....
God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they
are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus
where Jesus was raised.
Look to Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)
*****
[color=orange]you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her
children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't
fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
[color=orange]I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but
scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in
these cases.[/color]
Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...
I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did
I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions
that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and
look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...
And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my
postings......That is their right. If you do not agree it is
ok.....
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether
Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we
look at the OT references and you only reference one and then
only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's
not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm
left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't
try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers"
argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.
[/quote]
You said:"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT."
There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of
Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of
His (Jesus) ascension.
Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew
himself.
Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words,
punctuation, etc. in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line
for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and
expects us to find them........
Blade
[/quote]
Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others
have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains,
was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides
things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an
understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He
can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a
trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost
exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it. Holy men of old
wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them
but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add
to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A
little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who
forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are
without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a
stalemate.
#Post#: 9819--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 21, 2020, 3:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9787#msg9787
date=1579466546]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9720#msg9720
date=1579193637]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9709#msg9709
date=1579174590]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9702#msg9702
date=1579150529]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9695#msg9695
date=1579137024]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9673#msg9673
date=1579053755]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9669#msg9669
date=1579044323]
Can you give me a timeline for the events in Matthew 2?
When did Joseph take Mary and Jesus to Egypt according to Matt?
[/quote]
you want to know what? Jesus was a Child that was approximately
12-18 months old at that time. Thus the trip to Egypt happened
sometime between Sept 29th 2 BC and Herod's death January 14, 1
BC.
I probably can narrow it down a little more but the Bible tells
us, Jesus was a child....and Herod killed all the children from
2 years old down.
My question is: How did the regular soldier determine the age
of a child or did he really care????????
Like that or did you have something else in mind????
Blade
[/quote]
Why were they in Bethlehem 12-18 months later?
Why don't the first few verses of Matt. 2 suggest it was at the
time of Jesus' birth?
You seem very certain of the date of Herod's death whereas bible
scholars debate the issue. Have you some inside knowledge?
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith
the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that
thy children shall come again to their own border.
Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her children!? Is he serious?
Herod slaying these children doesn't fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but scripture has
internal witness of it's truth. I find none in these cases.
The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT.
The other 2 and their context below.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet
Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit
of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not,
neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking
firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the
son of Remaliah.
Isa 7:5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have
taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
Isa 7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make
a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even
the son of Tabeal:
Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither
shall it come to pass.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of
Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall
Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of
Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye
shall not be established.
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in
the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt
the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a
small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to
refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil,
and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be
forsaken of both her kings.
**************
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might
be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called
my son out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Then there's the problem Matthew has with counting and checking
his facts when recounting genealogies. Do I need to produce that
info or do you know what I'm on about, because this is getting a
little long?
[/quote]
There are several scholars that have their own views, some
around 3 BC and some around 4 BC. What I told you was what I
believe to be the truth....Of course this has been vetted many
times by several scholars and backup up by historical records.
Like we know for a fact when Herod died........that was
easy....what is not easy is comparing what the Bible tells us in
verses here and there and comparing them to historical
records.....
God left us dates and times if we will unravel the verses they
are in. when they came back from Egypt, they went to Nazarus
where Jesus was raised.
Look to Psalm 69 (the life of Jesus we are not told about)
*****
[color=orange]you said::::Matt. 2:17-18. Rachel weeping for her
children!? Is he serious? Herod slaying these children doesn't
fit this at all.
That's if it even happened. Though there are probably more
historical writings concerning Herod than any of his
contemporaries, this atrocity is not mentioned.
[color=orange]I can hear your cry, that I deny the bible but
scripture has internal witness of it's truth. I find none in
these cases.[/color]
Yes it happened,,,,Jesus tells us in Mat 2:16-18...
I apologize you feel that way and hope it was nothing that I did
I study many hours per day on the Bible and seek what questions
that come up so I can answer them....Some people accept them and
look for themselves to see if what I have said is true...
And others, well they dismiss it, disparage me and my
postings......That is their right. If you do not agree it is
ok.....
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
And yet you haven't answered my questions. I question whether
Matthew's claims of prophecy fulfilled can be justified when we
look at the OT references and you only reference one and then
only by re-quoting the supposed fulfilment in question. That's
not an answer. Others are left without comment.
I'm certainly not guilty of dismissing your answers because I'm
left wondering what you think you answered...
Likewise, I'm not concerned if you disagree with me but don't
try to use the "I study lots so I must have the answers"
argument. Please don't assume that others don't do the same.
[/quote]
You said:"The first two chapters of Matthew give three supposed
fulfilments of prophecy, none of which are related in any way to
the actual account in tho OT."
There 108 prophecies fulfilled from the OT from the entrance of
Jesus on the donkey into the city of Jerusalem until the time of
His (Jesus) ascension.
Matthew also gives the view of Jesus as a Jew from being a Jew
himself.
Since Jesus/GOD is the author of all the verses, words,
punctuation, etc. in the KJV Bible, He does not give us line
for line as a history book might have. No, He hides things and
expects us to find them........
Blade
[/quote]
Well Blade, you have certainly found things (or at least others
have way before you came on the scene) but the question remains,
was it God who hid them under the rug to be found? God hides
things in plain sight within his promises. It takes an
understanding of His plan and purpose to find them and only He
can direct you to them.
Your trust in the KJV's verses, words, punctuation etc. is not a
trust in God I hope you come to realise. I use it almost
exclusively myself but my trust isn't in it. Holy men of old
wrote as the Spirit of God gave them understanding. I trust them
but I know that wolves in sheep's clothing have crept in to add
to and subtract from their inspired writings since then. A
little here, a little there, just enough to catch the one who
forget's to honour the promises of God. We were warned so we are
without excuse.
Thanks for the discussion Blade, it seems to have ended in a
stalemate.
[/quote]
Probverbs 25:2...[color=blue]"It is the glory of God to conceal
a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
This should clear up who was hiding(concealing) things.....GOD,
for WHO???????--->Kings,,,,,(us the Church (body of Christ))
Blade[/color]
#Post#: 9971--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 29, 2020, 7:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9230#msg9230
date=1576546060]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=703.msg9227#msg9227
date=1576542126]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9210#msg9210
date=1576471382]
[quote]Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a
different thread should you wish it.
Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it
can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.
However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli
"assumption" as you called it....
In Luke 3:23.(KJV) [color=red]."And Jesus himself began to be
about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"
Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I
went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as
given to you by GOD himself....
"AS WAS SUPPOSED"
meaning..νομίζω nomízō,
nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to
accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or
regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.
So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel
concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law
adopted......
Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage : to hold by custom or usage,
own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the
custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose
Hope you have a good evening.
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not
wrap it up quite so soon...
Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed"
in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I
cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was
Joseph's actual son.
G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13
Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that
everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother
called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and
Judas?
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother
said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold,
thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious
words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not
this Joseph's son?
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have
found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did
write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I
came down from heaven?
Next.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of
Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of
Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of
Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of
Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of
Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of
Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of
Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of
Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of
Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of
Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of
Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed,
which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which
was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of
Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares,
which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of
Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara,
which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of
Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber,
which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of
Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe,
which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of
Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of
Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries
to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or
"assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the
people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?
Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in
order a declaration of those things which are most surely
believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the
beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect
understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto
thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.
In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of
Joseph....
Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone
did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.
[/quote]
Jesus is the legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli,
according to customs.....
We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and
Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.
Blade
[/quote]
Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds? :)
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the
doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the
doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this
doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God
speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his
evil deeds.
[/quote]
OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is
the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but
rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband,
Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the
Wilderness.
Blade
#Post#: 10000--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: January 31, 2020, 6:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=703.msg9971#msg9971
date=1580347164]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9230#msg9230
date=1576546060]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=703.msg9227#msg9227
date=1576542126]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9210#msg9210
date=1576471382]
[quote]Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a
different thread should you wish it.
Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it
can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.
However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli
"assumption" as you called it....
In Luke 3:23.(KJV) [color=red]."And Jesus himself began to be
about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"
Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I
went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as
given to you by GOD himself....
"AS WAS SUPPOSED"
meaning..νομίζω nomízō,
nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to
accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or
regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.
So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel
concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law
adopted......
Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage : to hold by custom or usage,
own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the
custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose
Hope you have a good evening.
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not
wrap it up quite so soon...
Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed"
in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I
cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was
Joseph's actual son.
G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13
Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that
everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother
called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and
Judas?
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother
said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold,
thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious
words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not
this Joseph's son?
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have
found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did
write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I
came down from heaven?
Next.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of
Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of
Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of
Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of
Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of
Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of
Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of
Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of
Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of
Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of
Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of
Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed,
which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which
was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of
Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares,
which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of
Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara,
which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of
Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber,
which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of
Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe,
which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of
Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of
Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries
to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or
"assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the
people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?
Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in
order a declaration of those things which are most surely
believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the
beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect
understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto
thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.
In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of
Joseph....
Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone
did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.
[/quote]
Jesus is the legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli,
according to customs.....
We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and
Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.
Blade
[/quote]
Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds? :)
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the
doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the
doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this
doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God
speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his
evil deeds.
[/quote]
OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is
the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but
rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband,
Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the
Wilderness.
Blade
[/quote]
True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have
concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking
about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.
I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job. :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself
to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something
that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going
back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the
answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the
research points us in one direction...
Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.
#Post#: 10009--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: January 31, 2020, 5:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg10000#msg10000
date=1580474078]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=703.msg9971#msg9971
date=1580347164]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9230#msg9230
date=1576546060]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=703.msg9227#msg9227
date=1576542126]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=703.msg9210#msg9210
date=1576471382]
[quote]Your questioning the KJV can also be discussed in a
different thread should you wish it.
Your question about the WORD of GOD in JOHN 1:1 and my use of it
can be discussed in a different thread if you wish.
However, I would like to clear up the Joseph, May and Heli
"assumption" as you called it....
In Luke 3:23.(KJV) [color=red]."And Jesus himself began to be
about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"
Your word "assumption" kind of hit me wrong. Needless to say, I
went back to research it a little more and here is the answer as
given to you by GOD himself....
"AS WAS SUPPOSED"
meaning..νομίζω nomízō,
nom-id'-zo; from G3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to
accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or
regard:—suppose, thing, be wont.
So Joseph was a son to heli according to customs of Israel
concerning the issues brought about by Zelophehad. A Son-in-law
adopted......
Outline of Biblical (KJV) Usage : to hold by custom or usage,
own as a custom or usage, to follow a custom or usage, it is the
custom, it is the received usage , to deem, think, suppose
Hope you have a good evening.
Blade[/color]
[/quote]
Yes I thought you would get there sooner or later but let's not
wrap it up quite so soon...
Here is a list of every usage of the word translated "supposed"
in the KJV.
Check out the context of every time it is used and tell me I
cannot hold the view I have; that people thought that Jesus was
Joseph's actual son.
G3543
νομίζω
nomizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 15
supposed, 4
Mat_20:9-10 (2), Luk_3:23, Act_7:25, Act_21:29
supposing, 4
Luk_2:44, Act_14:19, Act_16:27, 1Ti_6:5
think, 4
Mat_5:17, Mat_10:34, Act_17:29, 1Co_7:36
suppose, 1
1Co_7:26
thought, 1
Act_8:20
wont, 1
Act_16:13
Now apply the verses I gave in support of the supposition that
everyone had concerning the father of Jesus.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother
called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and
Judas?
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother
said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold,
thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious
words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not
this Joseph's son?
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have
found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did
write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I
came down from heaven?
Next.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of
Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of
Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of
Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of
Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of
Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of
Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of
Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of
Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of
Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of
Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of
Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of
Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed,
which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which
was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of
Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares,
which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of
Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara,
which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of
Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber,
which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of
Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe,
which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of
Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of
Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
How many of these sons were "supposed" by their contemporaries
to be the son of...
In fact, isn't it true that you are indeed "supposed" or
"assumed" to be the son of your father by the majority of the
people who know you? How many people 'actually know' you are?
Luke, said at the beginning of his Gospel...
Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in
order a declaration of those things which are most surely
believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the
beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect
understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto
thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.
In light of this statement he also said:
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
In other words, Jesus... being as everyone supposed, the son of
Joseph....
Let's be honest, the statements above demonstrate that everyone
did think Jesus was the son of Joseph, including Luke.
[/quote]
Jesus is the legal son of Joseph...and the legal son of Heli,
according to customs.....
We are at an end here........Thank you for the discussions and
Hope you have a great day tomorrow and and a safe evening.
Blade
[/quote]
Blade.
Are you sure you haven't just partaken of my evil deeds? :)
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the
doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the
doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this
doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God
speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his
evil deeds.
[/quote]
OH MY? we know Jesus was born of Mary...Who was Mary's father is
the question and Luke 3 tells us by using; NOT assumptions but
rather deductive reasoning, that Heli adopted Mary's Husband,
Joseph because of a civil law, GOD gave Israel in the
Wilderness.
Blade
[/quote]
True. We know Jesus was born of Mary.
It's what Luke tells us.... that you WANT to be... indeed, have
concluded MUST be, because... That's where the problem lies.
If you were to just let Luke say what he says without thinking
about the because...
Why do I know this? Because I've been there myself.
I know I won't ever convince you. It's not my job. :)
But just so you know, there's no point in you repeating yourself
to me, because, as I'm sure you know, once you see something
that's been there in front of you for so long, there's no going
back.
That's our biggest problem with all of our theology, we know the
answer all too often before we research, and therefore all the
research points us in one direction...
Thanks for the discussion Blade, I know you mean well.
[/quote]
I just don;'t understand what you are trying to say...That Heli
is not Mary's Father?
are you trying to decide if there were TWO Josephs?
That Heli is Joseph's father. Luke (3:23, KJV)
That Jacob is Joseph's Father. (Mat 1:16, KJV)
What are you trying to say?
Mat 1:16 (KJV).]."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of
whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
OK, here we Know that:
1. Jacob is the Father of Joseph? right?????
2. Joseph is the Husband of Mary? right?????
3. Mary is the Mother of Jesus ????? right???
Are we on the same page to this point?????
Luke 3:23..(KJV)..."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty
years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which
was the son of Heli,"
OK, Here we see that:
1. Jesus is the Son of Joseph ("as was supposed" according to
customs-Adopted)
2. Joseph is the Father-in-law of Heli.
3. Joseph (the father of Jesus) is the son of Heli.
OK, where are you at right here?
Let me add two more item to this discussion.
1. Both Matthew and Luke genealogies are identical from Adam to
Abraham.
2. "The term in Luke 3:23 is nomizo in Greek: reckoned as by
law. Joseph was adopted by Heli in accordance to the exception
in the Torah for inheritance through brotherless sisters given
to Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11; Joshua 17:3-6; Ezra 2:61; cf.
Nehemiah 7:63; Numbers 32:41; 1 Chronicles 2:21-23, 34-35). "
(Koinonia House,The Gospel in Quadraphonic:)
I really would like to understand your rejection of whatever it
is that you are trying to say...Please help me understand your
postion(s) on these two scriptures..
Blade
*****************************************************
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