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DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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#Post#: 5371--------------------------------------------------
The Genealogy of Jesus: Comments
By: guest8 Date: May 3, 2019, 7:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hidden: I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew
and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention
to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David
not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I
can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a
descendant of?
Hello Hidden.. The answer is both of them Joseph and Mary are
descendants of King David. Let me expand this for you!
God had already announced his plans to have the messiah (a
Future King of Judea) born to a virgin and from the house of
Judah or King David. There was one catch! God had placed a blood
curse on Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin) which prevented any
male from prospering (not being able to rule from or sit upon
the Throne of David). Thus, this would not allow Jesus (if born
of Joseph) to be a King of Judea, as the prophecies announced.
A big problem. The solution is simple. Jesus will be born of
another in the royal line of King David that has no such curse
upon it. (Jer 22:30).
In the synoptic Gospels, Matthew gives the genealogy of Judah
from the Levi (Jewish) point of view. Matthew traces the line
from Abraham through David, Solomon to Joseph who will become
the "Legal" father of Jesus. (Mat 1:1-16).
In another of the Gospels, Luke (a doctor), portrays Jesus as
the "Son of Man". Here Luke traces the genealogy from Mary to
Heli (her father) to Nathan (2nd surviving son of Bathsheba) to
David, to Abraham, to Adam. (Luke 3:23-38)..Notice the genealogy
is backwards
Hope this helps.
Blade
#Post#: 6300--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: patrick jane Date: June 12, 2019, 4:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I never tried to study genealogies, too many names.
#Post#: 6327--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: June 12, 2019, 2:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=423.msg6300#msg6300
date=1560333449]
I never tried to study genealogies, too many names.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Genealogies are the way tells us the amount of
time that has passed or the time it is. To study them is only
to understand them. (why are they so frequent, different and so
limiting.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 6716--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: patrick jane Date: June 29, 2019, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg6327#msg6327
date=1560367642]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=423.msg6300#msg6300
date=1560333449]
I never tried to study genealogies, too many names.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Genealogies are the way tells us the amount of
time that has passed or the time it is. To study them is only
to understand them. (why are they so frequent, different and so
limiting.
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]True, thanks.
#Post#: 7092--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: July 17, 2019, 7:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=423.msg6716#msg6716
date=1561825384]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg6327#msg6327
date=1560367642]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=423.msg6300#msg6300
date=1560333449]
I never tried to study genealogies, too many names.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Genealogies are the way tells us the amount of
time that has passed or the time it is. To study them is only
to understand them. (why are they so frequent, different and so
limiting.
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]True, thanks.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]
If one looks at the genealogy of ADAM in Genesis 5, we find that
Adam begat Seith ; Seith begat Enosh ; Enosh begat Kenan/Cainan
; Kenan/Cainan begat Mahalaleel ; Mahalaleel begat Jared ;
Jared begat Enoch; Enoch begat Methuselah ; Methuselah begat
Lamech ; Lamech begat Noah
These are all Hebrew names and because of this, they all have a
meaning.
Here is the meaning of each of these names. ADAM = Man ; Seith
= appointed ; Enosh = Mortal ; Kenan = sorrow ; Mahalaleel = The
Blessed God ; Jared = Shall Come Down ; Enoch = Teaching ;
Methuselah = His Death shall bring ; Lamech = The Despairing ;
Noah = Rest or Comfort
If we put these together in one sentence it would read.
Man [is] appointed mortal sorrow [;] The Blessed God shall come
down teaching His death shall bring the despairing rest or
comfort. [emphasis added]
Jesus Christ is the Blessed GOD in Genesis 5.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 9138--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: December 11, 2019, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg5371#msg5371
date=1556931140]
Hidden: I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew
and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention
to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David
not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I
can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a
descendant of?
Hello Hidden.. The answer is both of them Joseph and Mary are
descendants of King David. Let me expand this for you!
God had already announced his plans to have the messiah (a
Future King of Judea) born to a virgin and from the house of
Judah or King David. There was one catch! God had placed a blood
curse on Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin) which prevented any
male from prospering (not being able to rule from or sit upon
the Throne of David). Thus, this would not allow Jesus (if born
of Joseph) to be a King of Judea, as the prophecies announced.
A big problem. The solution is simple. Jesus will be born of
another in the royal line of King David that has no such curse
upon it. (Jer 22:30).
In the synoptic Gospels, Matthew gives the genealogy of Judah
from the Levi (Jewish) point of view. Matthew traces the line
from Abraham through David, Solomon to Joseph who will become
the "Legal" father of Jesus. (Mat 1:1-16).
In another of the Gospels, Luke (a doctor), portrays Jesus as
the "Son of Man". Here Luke traces the genealogy from Mary to
Heli (her father) to Nathan (2nd surviving son of Bathsheba) to
David, to Abraham, to Adam. (Luke 3:23-38)..Notice the genealogy
is backwards
Hope this helps.
Blade
[/quote]
Another big problem!
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
There is no mention of Mary in Luke's genealogical record.
#Post#: 9179--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: December 12, 2019, 5:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9138#msg9138
date=1576066097]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg5371#msg5371
date=1556931140]
Hidden: I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew
and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention
to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David
not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I
can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a
descendant of?
Hello Hidden.. The answer is both of them Joseph and Mary are
descendants of King David. Let me expand this for you!
God had already announced his plans to have the messiah (a
Future King of Judea) born to a virgin and from the house of
Judah or King David. There was one catch! God had placed a blood
curse on Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin) which prevented any
male from prospering (not being able to rule from or sit upon
the Throne of David). Thus, this would not allow Jesus (if born
of Joseph) to be a King of Judea, as the prophecies announced.
A big problem. The solution is simple. Jesus will be born of
another in the royal line of King David that has no such curse
upon it. (Jer 22:30).
In the synoptic Gospels, Matthew gives the genealogy of Judah
from the Levi (Jewish) point of view. Matthew traces the line
from Abraham through David, Solomon to Joseph who will become
the "Legal" father of Jesus. (Mat 1:1-16).
In another of the Gospels, Luke (a doctor), portrays Jesus as
the "Son of Man". Here Luke traces the genealogy from Mary to
Heli (her father) to Nathan (2nd surviving son of Bathsheba) to
David, to Abraham, to Adam. (Luke 3:23-38)..Notice the genealogy
is backwards
Hope this helps.
Blade
[/quote]
Another big problem!
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the
son of Heli,
There is no mention of Mary in Luke's genealogical record.
[/quote]
Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....
there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through
Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.
Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them. NO
(MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would
have also affected Jesus.
Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are
told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were
no males in the household, for the father to adopt the
son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land,
etc. This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of
Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).
Hope this helps
Blade
#Post#: 9185--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: December 13, 2019, 8:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....
there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through
Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.
Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them. NO
(MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would
have also affected Jesus.
Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are
told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were
no males in the household, for the father to adopt the
son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land,
etc. This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of
Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).
Hope this helps
Blade
Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no
scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement
that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture
please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's
father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please
provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings.
Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to
be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make
assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem,
take the place of the word of God?
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not
turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy
throne.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne;
#Post#: 9197--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: December 13, 2019, 11:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9185#msg9185
date=1576248317]
Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....
there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through
Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.
Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them. NO
(MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would
have also affected Jesus.
Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are
told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were
no males in the household, for the father to adopt the
son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land,
etc. This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of
Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).
Hope this helps
Blade
Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no
scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement
that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture
please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's
father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please
provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings.
Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to
be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make
assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem,
take the place of the word of God?
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not
turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy
throne.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne;
[/quote]
You say assumptions which is not true...All that needs to be
done is a backwards search sometimes.
Mat 1:1-16,,gives us the Genealogy of Adam to David and the
royal LEGAL line from DAVID to Jesus..
In Mat 1:16.." And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of
whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
We see above that Joseph was indeed in the LEGAL Royal line of
DAVID, He is the Husband of MARY, the mother of Mary.
Thus so far we have established. Joseph (of the royal line) as
the Husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus Christ.
In Luke 3:23-28, we find Luke's genealogy of Jesus from Abraham
to David is the same as Matthews. Yet, from David to Jesus,
Luke does not follow the royal line but rather through the
second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan. This line starting
at Nathan down through Heli, the father of Mary, the Mother of
Jesus. The Genealogy in LUKE is backwards with HELI being first
in verse
Luk 3:23..(KJV).."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty
years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which
was the son of Heli,"
We also see that Jesus , the son of Joseph, which was the son of
Heli.
[b]As above, Joseph already has a father in Matthew....so Heli
has to be an adoptive Father as is Joseph being the LEGAL father
of Jesus.......
By deductive reasoning, we can see that Mary was the daughter of
HELI even though the Bible does not directly say... It can be
see as no other way. FYI: God does this from time to
time.....Hiding events, names, etc for the His Kings and priest
(the Church (body of Christ)) to seek out and find.
Are you familiar with Jewish LAWs and customs....If I am going
over ground you already know, disregard.
On the trip out of Egypt to the wilderness, i was asked of Moses
about the father "Zelophehad" who only had daughters and had no
sons to receive His inheritance of Land given to them by GOD.
This rule permitted the daughters to receive the inheritance if
and only if they married within their tribe and their father
legally adopted the son-in-law. This is also seen the book of
Ruth. I suggest reading this book very cloesly for it is all
about Jewish Law on redemption of Land by a Goel. (Boaz).
Here are some passages that you can look upon in your leisure as
to the laws and customs of those seen in the above paragraph.
Numbers 26:33; 27:1-11; 36:2-12; Joshua 17:3-6; 1 Chronicles
7:15[/b]
Because Jesus was born through the "SEED of the WOMAN" (Mary),
her husband Joseph whose biological father was Jacob (Mat 1:16),
adopted Jesus as was also the customs and laws given to the
Jewish people by GOD.
There is no assumptions as you can see. Maybe deductive
reasoning leaving only one true answer. Many people will say
this is not good enough...... It is to me.....because I simply
believe every WORD, period, comma, etc to be the true WORD of
GOD....SIMPLE
Oh, I almost forgot the Blood Curse on Jechonias (Mat
1:11-12).found in
Jer 22:30.."Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a
man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed
shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any
more in Judah."
Thus preventing any male child from Jechonias on down from
sitting on the throne of David.....This would have prevented
Jesus from ruling from David THrone in the millennium, several
prophecies would not be fulfilled. Yet, with the line from the
Second Son of Bathsheba to Mary, the Throne was secured for
Jesus......
Here we see the craftiness of GOD as when He placed the Blood
curse on Jechonias, it surely made Lucifer jump for joy....He
had won, and then he (satan)_ figured it out about Mary....
Make no bones about, Satan is trying to stop any one part of the
plan of God from being fulfilled. So far (in the KJV), all
prophecies have been 100% and many more to go.
Hope this helps. If not be specific and I will try to get you
the answer' ;D
Blade
#Post#: 9198--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Genealogy of Jesus
By: Geoff Date: December 14, 2019, 7:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=423.msg9197#msg9197
date=1576300593]
[quote author=Geoff link=topic=423.msg9185#msg9185
date=1576248317]
Hello, Geoff...... Glad to have you on this forum.....
there are two genealogies of Jesus......... One is run through
Abraham to Jesus and the other Luke's.
Keep in mind that Joseph's line had a blood curse upon them. NO
(MALE) child of that line could sit on the throne....Which would
have also affected Jesus.
Joseph was the legal son of HELI....In other passages, we are
told Heli is Mary's father...It was the custom where there were
no males in the household, for the father to adopt the
son-in-law and thus stabilizing the inheritance of the land,
etc. This is the reason why Joseph is listed ass the Son of
Heli. (being the legal son of Heli).
Hope this helps
Blade
Thanks for the welcome.
I understand the curse.
I have several problems with what you wrote.
You say that Joseph was the "legal" son of Heli. There is no
scriptural evidence to support the inference of this statement
that I am aware of. If you know of this evidence in scripture
please present it.
You also say "In other passages, we are told Heli is Mary's
father". I am unaware of these passages. Would you please
provide them?
You also seek to demonstrate that Mary had no male siblings.
Would you provide the scriptural evidence for this please?
I am well aware that the statements you make are widely held to
be true but I can't believe that God would leave us to make
assumptions concerning something so important.
I mean, how does an assumption, however obvious it may seem,
take the place of the word of God?
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not
turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy
throne.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne;
[/quote]
You say assumptions which is not true...All that needs to be
done is a backwards search sometimes.
Mat 1:1-16,,gives us the Genealogy of Adam to David and the
royal LEGAL line from DAVID to Jesus..
In Mat 1:16.." And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of
whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
We see above that Joseph was indeed in the LEGAL Royal line of
DAVID, He is the Husband of MARY, the mother of Mary.
Thus so far we have established. Joseph (of the royal line) as
the Husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus Christ.
In Luke 3:23-28, we find Luke's genealogy of Jesus from Abraham
to David is the same as Matthews. Yet, from David to Jesus,
Luke does not follow the royal line but rather through the
second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan. This line starting
at Nathan down through Heli, the father of Mary, the Mother of
Jesus. The Genealogy in LUKE is backwards with HELI being first
in verse
Luk 3:23..(KJV).."And Jesus himself began to be about thirty
years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which
was the son of Heli,"
We also see that Jesus , the son of Joseph, which was the son of
Heli.
[b]As above, Joseph already has a father in Matthew....so Heli
has to be an adoptive Father as is Joseph being the LEGAL father
of Jesus.......
By deductive reasoning, we can see that Mary was the daughter of
HELI even though the Bible does not directly say... It can be
see as no other way. [/quote]
See this is where I have problems with your summary. You say "so
Heli [b]has to be an adoptive Father".
Luke says: Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty
years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which
was the son of Heli,
What was Luke meaning by this statement?
Jesus being the son of Joseph, as everyone supposed. That's what
he meant. Why do we know this? Because every time it's mentioned
by those who knew Jesus that's what they thought to be the
case... that Jesus was the son of Joseph. All these statements
below are given to us as the word of God.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother
called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and
Judas?
Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious
words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not
this Joseph's son?
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have
found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did
write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I
came down from heaven?
Listen to his mother...
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother
said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold,
thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me?
wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto
them.
Why didn't Mary and Joseph understand what he told them? I'll
bet you think you know what he meant! Why didn't they?
[quote]FYI: God does this from time to time.....Hiding events,
names, etc for the His Kings and priest (the Church (body of
Christ)) to seek out and find.[/quote]
Oh yes, things are hidden. I don't deny that, but the facts are
hidden and must be found. We are not supposed to follow rabbit
trails riddled with assumptions and conjecture.
[quote]Are you familiar with Jewish LAWs and customs....If I am
going over ground you already know, disregard.
On the trip out of Egypt to the wilderness, i was asked of Moses
about the father "Zelophehad" who only had daughters and had no
sons to receive His inheritance of Land given to them by GOD.
This rule permitted the daughters to receive the inheritance if
and only if they married within their tribe and their father
legally adopted the son-in-law. This is also seen the book of
Ruth. I suggest reading this book very cloesly for it is all
about Jewish Law on redemption of Land by a Goel.
(Boaz).[/quote]
Yes it so happens I am very aware of all this.
I would be quite accepting of this solution if there was any
evidence that it was the case in this situation, but there is
not. You are basing your belief on the assumption that it is the
case.
There is a stronger case to argue that Mary was of the house of
Levi but you won't find me using it because, once again, it is
conjecture, without scriptural evidence.
Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man
to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man
before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat
offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a
certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his
wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth....
Perhaps you are also aware that there are also snares laid to
catch the unwary that would assume that which has not been
spoken.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[quote]Here are some passages that you can look upon in your
leisure as to the laws and customs of those seen in the above
paragraph. Numbers 26:33; 27:1-11; 36:2-12; Joshua 17:3-6; 1
Chronicles 7:15[/b][/b][/quote]
Thank you but I am very familiar with them all.
[quote][color=blue]Because Jesus was born through the "SEED of
the WOMAN" (Mary), her husband Joseph whose biological father
was Jacob (Mat 1:16), adopted Jesus as was also the customs and
laws given to the Jewish people by GOD.
There is no assumptions as you can see. Maybe deductive
reasoning leaving only one true answer. Many people will say
this is not good enough...... It is to me.....because I simply
believe every WORD, period, comma, etc to be the true WORD of
GOD....SIMPLE[/quote]
Yes many people would say it's not good enough to apply
"deductive reasoning" in place of scriptural evidence. I am one
of them.
Supply scriptural support for your assertions and I'll be happy
to concur.
You will need scriptural evidence that Mary was a descendant of
David and that she had no male siblings. Find that and I will
accept what you say. If not, your statement about believing the
word of God to be true is just hot air.
[quote]
Make no bones about, Satan is trying to stop any one part of the
plan of God from being fulfilled.
[/quote]
It makes his job easy when we put our trust in assumptions.
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