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DIR Return to: Christian Theology
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#Post#: 5175--------------------------------------------------
Reformed Theology:Where I agree and where I don't
By: guest55 Date: April 25, 2019, 7:34 am
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Tiptoe Through The TULIP
What is reformed theology? It is a theology derived from the
views of John Calvin; born Jehan Cauvin in 1509. At its most
basic it relies on 5 tenets of faith remembered by the mnemonic
device TULIP. This device stands for:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always
Saved)
The bible ratifies some of these tenets such as Total Depravity,
our inability to know God when we are fallen flesh. (1 Cor
2:14-16)
Unconditional election (Romans 5:8)
Terrible TULIP?
But where it appears to run aground is when it comes to
Irresistible grace. This doctrine teaches that when God calls
his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all
people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But
to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be
resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the
hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and
regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.
Wobbly Flowers
Now this is where things begin to get wobbly because even though
“God offers to all people the Gospel message” He only reprograms
the elect to accept it while the rest He leaves in the un
enabled state, not being able to understand the things of God.
Thus he “limits His atonement” to only the elect. I realize
that some would object to my use of “reprogrammed” but if it is
irresistible after all, you have no choice.
Regardless of how you phrase it. God chooses who will be saved
and whether by default (predestination) or by direct choice
(double predestination) the non elected are damned without
remedy because they cannot understand spiritual things from God.
So when you boil it down, mankind has no choices, no free-will.
You are either regenerated by the Holy Spirit or you are not and
there is nothing you can do about it.
Searching for Coherence
As a “biblist” my search is constantly looking for the internal
coherence of the bible, its functional adequacy and external
correspondence. This means I can’t toss out or ignore parts of
the bible that cut across my narrative. I must adjust my
understanding to accommodate them. This has lead me to
understand that God’s purpose in creating man was to have
free-will beings that of their free-will choose to serve Him.
Furthermore, the fall of man and the resulting flood of sin was
an inevitable result of God’s granting free-will to angles and
men.
It was NOT a surprise to God and the plan to deal with it was
always in place so that God could have His free-will creation in
a voluntary relationship with him.
So far, I think a large majority of Reformed theology is with
me, but where we differ is that, what I read in the bible
indicates that God protected that free-will throughout this
entire process. Never did he make His grace irresistible. But
he does light every man that comes into this world so that they
might make an informed decision concerning His offer of eternal
life.
I would appreciate critiques of this general overview but
please, let us allow God’s grace attend our debate and let’s
only address a point at a time. Start with the point you deem
most important. Often you can take down an argument by exposing
a faulty nexus and I don’t have large blocks of time to try to
argue everything at once.
I like debate but am a bit weary of bickering and I do not feel
this is a salvational issue since at the core of it. We both
believe it is the substitution of Jesus life for ours that saves
us. Lastly, understand that I have no condemnation for reformed
theology. John Piper and Matt Chandler are two of my favorite
bible expositors and they are both reformed theologians.
#Post#: 5177--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reformed Theology:Where I agree and where I don't
By: bernard pyron Date: April 25, 2019, 9:52 am
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Find out who created Five Point Calvinism, and whether the
theology fits New Testament scripture or not.
I have been interested in some translation issues, especially
involving William Tyndale's break with Catholic tradition on the
translation of ekklesia by John Wyclife in his 1382 Old English
translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate.
In the Wyclife 1382 English Bible, translated from Latin,
ekklesia was translated as chirche, pronounced "Kirkee."
Tyndale in 1526 broke with the Catholic use of chirche and
instead used "congregation" consistently for ekklesia except
for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37 where he used chirche, meaning a
pagan place of worship.
But then Theodore Beza in 1556 in a translation returned to the
Catholic use of church for ekklesia. William Whittingham's
Testament of 1557 followed Beza's usage of church. The first
edition of the Geneva Bible as a revision of the Tyndale New
Testament, translated ekklesia as church. The Geneva Bible
followed Beza in translating ekklesia consistently as church
instead of as congregation as Tyndale had done. The consistent
translation of ekklesia as Church in the English Bibles
apparently dates back to a Calvinist, Theodore Beza.
Theodore Beza is one follower of John Calvin, whose name got
into history as a successor to Calvin himself. There are
other followers of Calvin, who contributed to Calvinism after
the death of Calvin. John Calvin did not live a long life.
Calvin's dates are July 10, 1509 to May 27, 1564 - he died
at 55.
HTML https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism
"The official Calvinistic response came from the Synod of Dort
which was held November 13, 1618, to May 9, 1619, to consider
the Five Articles. There were eighty-four members and eighteen
secular commissioners. The Synod wrote what has come to be known
as the Canons of Dort. These are still part of the church
confession of the Reformed Church in America and the Christian
Reformed Church. They state the Five Points of Calvinism in
response to the Five Articles of the Arminian Remonstrants."
See:
HTML https://verticallivingministries.com/tag/what-scriptures-support-the-5-points-of-calvinism/
This site quotes New Testament scripture which can be seen to
support the five points of the Canons of Dort. This can help a
person to decide whether to look to the theology alone or also
at the New Testament scriptures which can be seen to support the
five points.
#Post#: 6289--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reformed Theology:Where I agree and where I don't
By: patrick jane Date: June 12, 2019, 4:47 am
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Thanks bernard.
#Post#: 6706--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reformed Theology:Where I agree and where I don't
By: patrick jane Date: June 29, 2019, 11:18 am
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[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=410.msg6289#msg6289
date=1560332876]
Thanks bernard.
[/quote]Yep
#Post#: 6956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reformed Theology:Where I agree and where I don't
By: patrick jane Date: July 11, 2019, 5:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=410.msg6706#msg6706
date=1561825106]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=410.msg6289#msg6289
date=1560332876]
Thanks bernard.
[/quote]Yep
[/quote]Oh yeah.
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