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#Post#: 4884--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 12, 2019, 10:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4883#msg4883
date=1555082215]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4882#msg4882
date=1555081725]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4881#msg4881
date=1555079588]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4880#msg4880
date=1555076748]
Let me tell you a funny story about MacArthur's teaching on this
matter.
Some time ago, my husband was pastoring a church in which two of
the women were trying to run the church. They were gossips,
controlling, etc. woman that obviously were NOT living according
to a yielded life to the living God. They however, used
MacArthur's teaching on the subject of woman to try to silence
not only other woman who could teach them how to be a woman of
God but to try to silence the men as well so that they could
continue on their agenda.
What I am proposing the passage means would not be very easy to
use in the same way. In fact, what I am proposing it is
teaching is that all people, both men and woman alike are to
live in quietness and peace (in their behaviors) waiting
patiently for God to open the doors He wants opened. That would
have instantly disqualified these two ladies....from trying to
run the church, but because they used MacArthur's teaching they
could weasel their way into various positions and in doing so
take over the church.
Now I am NOT advocating that is a reason to accept how I
understand the passage...please don't make the mistake of
assuming that is what I am saying....what I am saying however,
is that I believe that truth always holds up to challenge, so
that would be just one more checks and balances to add to our
careful study of the discrepancies between the teaching and the
text.
[/quote]I thought I basically said the same things about the
verses.
[/quote]I was just hoping for a discussion about where we get
that understanding verse the traditional understanding like
MacArthur...I'm about study of scripture....
[/quote]I think we get that authority and power from the Holy
Spirit. Our conscience as well. Discernment and testing the
spirits.
[/quote]exactly...but if a woman has no authority, there is
nothing for her to usurp over the man...that was kind of the
point on that one. Someone had to give her authority to
usurp....that authority came from God...so how can she be
forbidden from exercising what God gave her?
#Post#: 4885--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 12, 2019, 10:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is another story related to this topic....in our church
some years ago, a man who actually holds the MacArthur view of
the passage, was wanting to step down from his Sunday School
teaching. He was looking for someone who was available to take
over who was qualified and ultimately asked me to do it...but
remember, this would have been a violation of MacArthurs
understanding of the passage in question.
He eventually asked me to teach for him, after much prayer, I
did and not only did several people in the class talk about how
I was gifted to teach, but the class grow out of the room we
were in and continued to grow until some nasty stuff went down
that involved the "male" leadership of the church. Notice that
a woman, who was yielded to God and waiting on Him to open the
doors of authority He wanted opened, saw growth in the SS while
a man who was not called and violated scriptural qualifications
brought divisiveness and strife.....why is that if women are NOT
allowed to teach men, period? Again, not saying we should base
our understanding on anecdotal evidence but that anecdotal
evidence is a challenge that should hold up to truth.
#Post#: 4886--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 12, 2019, 10:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I kind of wanted someone to weigh in on the prophecy issue
before moving on to the next one.
The next one on my short list would be the likewise...or in the
same manner...part of the passage in context.
In context we see that men are told that their authority is to
be done in quiet and peacefulness....then we see "Likewise" or
"in the same manner" woman...authority...quiet/silent....what
would compel us to change the meaning of quiet to silent if the
two are the same manner....not to mention why would we withhold
authority from woman if their behavior with authority was to be
the same as the men of authority? This is a discrepancy that
does not make sense with the traditional understanding of this
passage.
The same goes for the passage I Corinthians 11 4 Every man
praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth
his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head
uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if
she were shaven.
Notice that both men and women are praying and prophesying yet
we are asked to believe that I Timothy is teaching woman not to
pray or prophesy in church.... why should we believe that is the
correct teaching of the Timothy passage when we see in I Cor.
that that teaching is challenged? Discrepancies in the
traditional teaching...
#Post#: 4891--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: April 12, 2019, 6:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4886#msg4886
date=1555083622]
I kind of wanted someone to weigh in on the prophecy issue
before moving on to the next one.
The next one on my short list would be the likewise...or in the
same manner...part of the passage in context.
In context we see that men are told that their authority is to
be done in quiet and peacefulness....then we see "Likewise" or
"in the same manner" woman...authority...quiet/silent....what
would compel us to change the meaning of quiet to silent if the
two are the same manner....not to mention why would we withhold
authority from woman if their behavior with authority was to be
the same as the men of authority? This is a discrepancy that
does not make sense with the traditional understanding of this
passage.
The same goes for the passage I Corinthians 11 4 Every man
praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth
his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head
uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if
she were shaven.
Notice that both men and women are praying and prophesying yet
we are asked to believe that I Timothy is teaching woman not to
pray or prophesy in church.... why should we believe that is the
correct teaching of the Timothy passage when we see in I Cor.
that that teaching is challenged? Discrepancies in the
traditional teaching...
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori, My dear Lady...I really don't think you
think that (1 Tim 2) prevents women from praying in church. It
says they are not to lead the prayers (authoritative). The women
in the Bible who have prophesied were not inside the church
walls (the House of GOD)...
I know , it is I who keep failing you and at the same time I
pray that GOD will help give you direction toward literal Word
of God. The church at Corinth was a little different than the
one from Ephesus and Timothy. This is another discussion but is
relevant in the differences in 1 Tim and 1 Cor.
Please allow me to post two more videos (of someone else I agree
with), as it seems Dr. MacArthur is in the same boat I am with
your dissatisfaction with our answers. What I will do is present
the two videos in the order I think will convey the correct
message. I ask that you watch them in that order.
The first is titled " Is this why some women are miserable. "
and the second is "The roles of Men and Women are not hard to
figure out". As you are teaching other people in the church, it
is incumbent to make sure your teachings are instructive but
short of being authoritarian.
I hope this hits the mark as I will leave it to someone else to
bring you back into the fold, if you are still not satisfied
your questions have been answered?
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpC9X4EpbsE
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osNlrpQnAv4
May you have a good day and enjoy the videos
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 4912--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 13, 2019, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Blade...you still didn't address the passage...let me quote it
again...before we move on, how about addressing the passage that
seems to disagree with what you are saying....?
I Corinthians 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things,
and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of
Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered,
dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head
uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if
she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if
it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be
covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he
is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the
man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for
the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head
because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither
the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by
the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God
uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have
long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her
hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such
custom, neither the churches of God.
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye
come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear
that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
Make sure to look at the context when you explain how this
passage says the same thing you are saying about I Timothy
2....thank you in advance.
#Post#: 4916--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 13, 2019, 12:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As to the videos...Blade if you think these videos address what
I am saying, you have no idea what I am saying or suggesting.
In fact, what I am suggesting the passage says when studied
rather than listening to teacher tell us what they want it to
say, it is a much much harder teaching than what the teachers
are teaching you it means.
I came here wanting to talk about the discrepancies in the
passage and totality of scripture and teachings like you are
presenting...if you are willing to talk about those
discrepancies let me know. I already presented one about
"likewise" or "in like manner" that you didn't address.
Look I have already told you that I am looking for an excuse to
believe these teachers you are presenting are right...but I
can't find it.
I have no problem with roles...or submission (which I also
believe most people get wrong but that is another discussion and
again, what I believe it means is a harder teaching than what
most mean)
What I have a problem with is the discrepancies I see in
scripture when it comes to teachings like you post videos
of...and just for the record, this guy confessed that at least
in part the teaching comes from a reaction to modern day schemes
of Satan which assault our woman in society...let me point out
that that is a very good reason to look into the likewise part
of the passage, cause men are being bombarded with the same
kinds of lies....thus any passage that says likewise is
referring to the same things....
#Post#: 4921--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: April 13, 2019, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4916#msg4916
date=1555177395]
As to the videos...Blade if you think these videos address what
I am saying, you have no idea what I am saying or suggesting.
In fact, what I am suggesting the passage says when studied
rather than listening to teacher tell us what they want it to
say, it is a much much harder teaching than what the teachers
are teaching you it means.
I came here wanting to talk about the discrepancies in the
passage and totality of scripture and teachings like you are
presenting...if you are willing to talk about those
discrepancies let me know. I already presented one about
"likewise" or "in like manner" that you didn't address.
Look I have already told you that I am looking for an excuse to
believe these teachers you are presenting are right...but I
can't find it.
I have no problem with roles...or submission (which I also
believe most people get wrong but that is another discussion and
again, what I believe it means is a harder teaching than what
most mean)
What I have a problem with is the discrepancies I see in
scripture when it comes to teachings like you post videos
of...and just for the record, this guy confessed that at least
in part the teaching comes from a reaction to modern day schemes
of Satan which assault our woman in society...let me point out
that that is a very good reason to look into the likewise part
of the passage, cause men are being bombarded with the same
kinds of lies....thus any passage that says likewise is
referring to the same things....
[/quote]I still think if you made a numbered list like 1 thru 10
or whatever, of each discrepancy in the order they are received.
lol, we could better tackle each of them one by one. What do you
think?
#Post#: 4922--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 13, 2019, 1:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm leaving for the weekend (the forum)
I have something to think on while I am gone...if we understand
I Tim the way these videos teach it, what does that tell the men
about their authority in the church? More when I return...it's
an interesting discussion.
#Post#: 4936--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: April 14, 2019, 8:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4922#msg4922
date=1555179876]
I'm leaving for the weekend (the forum)
I have something to think on while I am gone...if we understand
I Tim the way these videos teach it, what does that tell the men
about their authority in the church? More when I return...it's
an interesting discussion.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]This should be interesting?
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 4956--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: April 15, 2019, 10:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here are my notes from a bigger study on the role of
woman.....it probably leaves out some important things since I
am trying to pick through it to only address the Timothy
passage. The whole study looks at submission too and what it
means not only that but what Love looks like in all
relationships and it has a very heavy lean on the marriage
relationship/the Church's relationship as the bride of Christ.
I don't believe we can talk about women submitting to their
husbands, without also touching on I Timothy 2:12 and I
Corinthians 14:34. Notice that in Titus, woman are to teach
what is good, and then in Timothy and Corinthians, they are told
not to teach. This then either becomes a contradiction in
Paul's teaching, or it is necessary to take a bit deeper look
into Timothy and Corinthians. The words here for teach and
keeping silent, mirror the teaching in Titus. In Timothy, the
woman is told to not teach by usurping authority over the man.
This usurping is one who with his own hand kills another or
self, acts on his own authority, is the absolute master.
(Thayer's Lexicon) If we read the text this way, then the
teaching is in fact consistent with Titus, a woman can teach,
but only with the authority given her by God, not an authority
she forces upon others. (Mark 1:27; II Corinthians 2:17; I
Thessalonians 2:4; Titus 2:15; I Peter 4:11) Now keep in mind,
that woman were just given the power to be heirs, that is equals
with men, this is a new power a new authority they do not know
how to deal with, a teaching such as this would be very
beneficial to woman and is also consistent with Galatians 3:18
(NIV) There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free,
nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ
Jesus. Likewise, in both passages, the command to keep silent is
a word used to refer to a quietness of spirit, that is to keep
the peace, don't stir trouble, meekness. Now go back to I Peter
3:4 (NIV) Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the
unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great
worth in God’s sight. Soon, we will look into the woman of
noble character in Proverbs 31 and discover this theme, of a
woman having authority, being strong and business like, working
as equals along with men, but using that authority only with a
quiet and gentle spirit is part of both Old Testament and New
Testament teaching.
As I review this, it doesn't talk about the men and the likewise
in the men which is also consistent with what I understand it is
saying based on this study....have a look at how men with
authority are to behave and compare that to what I see here
about woman....I Timothy 2 8 I will therefore that men pray
every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest
apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided
hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good
works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority
over the man, but to be in silence.
They are to do so with lifting up holy hands, without wrath and
doubting...IN THE SAME WAY WOMEN...how can woman do it the same
way if they are NOT to do it at all?
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