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#Post#: 4623--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 7:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes Blade, I think that's right that women can teach OUTSIDE of
the church buildings themselves. I just know that there are many
women in the world that are more spiritual and have more Bible
knowledge than me. I have learned a great deal from a few
different women.
As a side note to all of the members who may read this, first
thank you all for posting here with me. Second, I will try to
engage with all of the threads you folks have posted. I have
spent all of my time building this place up with content and
researching and studying a variety of areas but this Summer I
will chill in the A/C and talk to you each a bit more.
Please Subscribe! Join my Free Forums for discussion, debate and
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#Post#: 4625--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4614#msg4614
date=1553643485]
Lori, It seems I am digging myself a hole I cannot get out
of.....
The church Paul is speaking of to Timothy is a Brick and Mortar
Church at Ephesus.
**
As for contradictions..You said in an earlier post:"Who did
Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?" (a Contradiction)
At the resurrection, The epistles of Paul were not yet written!
**
you said:"lol I laugh because if you knew me you would know that
I am in trouble all the time for speaking against the feminist
agenda...I am so contrary to the feminist agenda it's funny for
you to warn me not to listen to them. "
If I offended you, I apologize. It is so hard to talk about this
subject, man to woman. I have tried several times and wind up
every time in the same hole?
However, even when you heard John MacArthur explanation (which
is the same as mine) your back was up immediately against the
wall. Why was this... I still do not understand your
question:"how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
anyone...?" 'another question asked who gave this authority
over man..not man' (paraphrased)
And then I made a humongous mistake. To talk about Gen 3 in
comparison on what GOD's intent for Women really was. A deeper
hole for sure.
So, I guess I am all out of anything to teach. Except, the
Church Paul Spoke of in 1 Tim 2:9-15 was the church at
Ephesus. A church of Brick and Mortar. Teaching by women is
permitted elsewhere but not in the House of GOD.
The Church (Body/Bride) of Jesus Christ is spiritual in nature
and in its body, we are ONE!
As far as the other points, I would be happy to address them .
Please restate them and I promise to stay on topic.
Blade
[/shadow]
[/quote]I was actually enjoying our discussion but I also felt
like a few things needed clarified because I am NOT advocating
women teach just trying to see where this passage teaches such
after looking in depth at what it is saying. One fatal flaw
many men make when trying to discuss it with woman is to assume
the woman is trying to gain authority over men...that may be
true for some woman but some of us just want to see the clear
teaching without all the nonsense added that is more traditional
than scriptural.
#Post#: 4626--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So...inside and outside the church.
I agree, the context is a brick and mortar church so to
speak...iow's it is about order during worship....but where in
the text does it say that all churches (brick and mortar so to
speak) were having the same problem with woman that that
assembly was? Are we sure this is speaking to all churches or
just those that have woman that are out of control?
Let me also offer this to you as to why I want to discuss it as
per what scripture says not what traditional understanding says.
#Post#: 4627--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
would have sold me for the money. I have heard my father claim
that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
etc. As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
God gave me, I was content with that position. However, as time
progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
wanted from me....a woman.
In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
school for my words were not welcomed or wanted. I was so
quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
anything at all. Now as a high school student God Himself
convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
remain quiet all the time. I have to learn and allow God to
give me a voice. Today few people have any understanding of
just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
transformation is that complete. My husband is one of the few
people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
nothing. So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
line.
In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
with the way it is usually taught. Now my husband and I agree
on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
that is man made not scripture supported.
#Post#: 4631--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 12:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
date=1553697788]
I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
would have sold me for the money. I have heard my father claim
that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
etc. As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
God gave me, I was content with that position. However, as time
progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
wanted from me....a woman.
In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
school for my words were not welcomed or wanted. I was so
quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
anything at all. Now as a high school student God Himself
convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
remain quiet all the time. I have to learn and allow God to
give me a voice. Today few people have any understanding of
just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
transformation is that complete. My husband is one of the few
people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
nothing. So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
line.
In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
with the way it is usually taught. Now my husband and I agree
on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
that is man made not scripture supported.
[/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
#Post#: 4633--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 12:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4631#msg4631
date=1553706837]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
date=1553697788]
I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
would have sold me for the money. I have heard my father claim
that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
etc. As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
God gave me, I was content with that position. However, as time
progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
wanted from me....a woman.
In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
school for my words were not welcomed or wanted. I was so
quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
anything at all. Now as a high school student God Himself
convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
remain quiet all the time. I have to learn and allow God to
give me a voice. Today few people have any understanding of
just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
transformation is that complete. My husband is one of the few
people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
nothing. So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
line.
In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
with the way it is usually taught. Now my husband and I agree
on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
that is man made not scripture supported.
[/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
[/quote]It was actually our pastor that pointed out to me about
Jesus first appearing to woman...he knew I was struggling at the
time he said it with worth and where I fit into the body of
Christ.
#Post#: 4635--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 27, 2019, 8:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4633#msg4633
date=1553708244]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4631#msg4631
date=1553706837]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
date=1553697788]
I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
would have sold me for the money. I have heard my father claim
that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
etc. As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
God gave me, I was content with that position. However, as time
progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
wanted from me....a woman.
In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
school for my words were not welcomed or wanted. I was so
quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
anything at all. Now as a high school student God Himself
convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
remain quiet all the time. I have to learn and allow God to
give me a voice. Today few people have any understanding of
just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
transformation is that complete. My husband is one of the few
people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
nothing. So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
line.
In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
with the way it is usually taught. Now my husband and I agree
on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
that is man made not scripture supported.
[/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
[/quote]It was actually our pastor that pointed out to me about
Jesus first appearing to woman...he knew I was struggling at the
time he said it with worth and where I fit into the body of
Christ.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
might help you a little.
"The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
(12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
to men in the church."
It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
shows compassion and understanding for the christian women. His
view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
Bible literally.
I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
quit digging the hole any deeper.
Blade
[/shadow]
#Post#: 4638--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 9:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
might help you a little.
"The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
(12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
to men in the church."
It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
shows compassion and understanding for the christian women. His
view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
Bible literally.
I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
quit digging the hole any deeper.
Blade
[/shadow]
[/quote]Did you mean to post a video Blade?
#Post#: 4641--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 28, 2019, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4635#msg4635
date=1553735367]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
might help you a little.
"The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
(12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
to men in the church."
It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
shows compassion and understanding for the christian women. His
view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
Bible literally.
I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
quit digging the hole any deeper.
Blade
[/shadow]
[/quote]thank you for your kindness and to be honest it is much
more loving than what I was taught which I totally
respect...however, there are still some discrepancies that I
have a huge problem with. For example, where did she get the
authority she is NOT to usurp? It had to come from somewhere.
If this teaching is only for women not being in leadership why
does it say "LIKEWISE" of the men...wouldn't likewise indicate
the same teaching is being given to both men and women? Not to
mention the context of the Gen. passage where most interpret it
to mean authority but there is nothing to indicate that. There
are some others but these three would be a great start.
#Post#: 4650--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 28, 2019, 5:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4641#msg4641
date=1553784049]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4635#msg4635
date=1553735367]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
might help you a little.
"The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
(12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
to men in the church."
It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
shows compassion and understanding for the christian women. His
view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
Bible literally.
I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
quit digging the hole any deeper.
Blade
[/shadow]
[/quote]thank you for your kindness and to be honest it is much
more loving than what I was taught which I totally
respect...however, there are still some discrepancies that I
have a huge problem with. For example, where did she get the
authority she is NOT to usurp? It had to come from somewhere.
If this teaching is only for women not being in leadership why
does it say "LIKEWISE" of the men...wouldn't likewise indicate
the same teaching is being given to both men and women? Not to
mention the context of the Gen. passage where most interpret it
to mean authority but there is nothing to indicate that. There
are some others but these three would be a great start.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Hi Lori, I thank you for the kind words. Let's
do one problem at a time. Let's start with authority.
There are only two type of authority. That authority of GOD and
the Authority of man which includes both male and female.
God gave man the authority in the church and He did not give a
woman any authority over man in the Church. He wants her to
(without conflict) learn in peaceful (silence) The same word
(silence) is translated as peaceful in 1 Tim 2:3...
To Usurp Authority..
αὐθεντέω
authenteō G831, From a compound of
αὐτός (G846) and an obsolete hentes
(a worker), Used in one form (1x) in the Textus Receptus. It was
translated to "usurp authority over"
In earlier forms in the LXX Septuagint, it has a somewhat
different meaning mainly because of the different Greek then and
when the Textus Receptus was written.
In the Textus Receptus: in later Greek writings one who does a
thing himself, the author (τῆς
πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2,
etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent
to
αὐτοκράτωρ
an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 [also as above;
cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.]); to govern one, exercise
dominion over one: τινός, 1 Timothy
2:12.
Lori, The authority would come from YOU! You would exercise (act
on your own) authority to "usurp authority" over the
authority given to Man by GOD!
As in the home, Man cedes His God given authority to you to run
to run the home/children, etc. Here Man has given you
authority.
God gave you the authority over childbirth.
In the public (outside of the church and Home) it comes either
from yourself or the laws of civilization.
Yet, is everyday situations, You exercise your authority (as a
part of mankind) many times during the day. It is this
authority that God recognizes and commands you to refrain from
using in the church (brick and mortar).
Where this authority comes from, I have no idea but I do know
women have it or at least my wife does. Boy, does she exercise
it outside of the church. LOL......
trying to lighten the day for you.
Summary: It is your authority that You used. You are more
powerful than you think... Don't let your past get you down...
For those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it
::: for those who forget their past, cannot learn from it.
Hope this helps......Next question
Blade
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