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       #Post#: 4623--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 7:50 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Yes Blade, I think that's right that women can teach OUTSIDE of
       the church buildings themselves. I just know that there are many
       women in the world that are more spiritual and have more Bible
       knowledge than me. I have learned a great deal from a few
       different women.
       As a side note to all of the members who may read this, first
       thank you all for posting here with me. Second, I will try to
       engage with all of the threads you folks have posted. I have
       spent all of my time building this place up with content and
       researching and studying a variety of areas but this Summer I
       will chill in the A/C and talk to you each a bit more.
       Please Subscribe! Join my Free Forums for discussion, debate and
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       #Post#: 4625--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:25 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4614#msg4614
       date=1553643485]
       Lori, It seems I am digging myself a hole I cannot get out
       of.....
       The church Paul is speaking of to Timothy is a Brick and Mortar
       Church at Ephesus.
       **
       As for contradictions..You said in an earlier post:"Who did
       Christ first appear to after He was resurrected?  Men or
       woman...?  What were these people told to do?  Who were they to
       teach about the resurrection of the Christ?  Why then does the
       resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?" (a Contradiction)
       At the resurrection, The epistles of Paul were not yet written!
       **
       you said:"lol I laugh because if you knew me you would know that
       I am in trouble all the time for speaking against the feminist
       agenda...I am so contrary to the feminist agenda it's funny for
       you to warn me not to listen to them. "
       If I offended you, I apologize. It is so hard to talk about this
       subject, man to woman. I have tried several times and wind up
       every time in the same hole?
       However, even when you heard John MacArthur explanation (which
       is the same as mine) your back was up immediately against the
       wall.  Why was this... I still do not understand your
       question:"how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
       She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
       anyone...?"  'another question asked who gave this authority
       over man..not man'  (paraphrased)
       And then I made a humongous mistake. To talk about Gen 3 in
       comparison on what GOD's intent for Women really was. A deeper
       hole for sure.
       So, I guess I am all out of anything to teach. Except, the
       Church Paul Spoke of in   1 Tim 2:9-15 was the church at
       Ephesus. A church of Brick and Mortar. Teaching by women is
       permitted elsewhere but not in the House of GOD.
       The Church (Body/Bride) of Jesus Christ is spiritual in nature
       and in its body, we are ONE!
       As far as the other points, I would be happy to address them .
       Please restate them and I promise to stay on topic.
       
       Blade
       
       [/shadow]
       [/quote]I was actually enjoying our discussion but I also felt
       like a few things needed clarified because I am NOT advocating
       women teach just trying to see where this passage teaches such
       after looking in depth at what it is saying.  One fatal flaw
       many men make when trying to discuss it with woman is to assume
       the woman is trying to gain authority over men...that may be
       true for some woman but some of us just want to see the clear
       teaching without all the nonsense added that is more traditional
       than scriptural.
       #Post#: 4626--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:28 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       So...inside and outside the church.
       I agree, the context is a brick and mortar church so to
       speak...iow's it is about order during worship....but where in
       the text does it say that all churches (brick and mortar so to
       speak) were having the same problem with woman that that
       assembly was?  Are we sure this is speaking to all churches or
       just those that have woman that are out of control?
       Let me also offer this to you as to why I want to discuss it as
       per what scripture says not what traditional understanding says.
       #Post#: 4627--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 9:43 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
       I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
       have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
       would have sold me for the money.  I have heard my father claim
       that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
       etc.  As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
       people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
       God gave me, I was content with that position.  However, as time
       progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
       God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
       wanted from me....a woman.
       In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
       and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
       school for my words were not welcomed or wanted.  I was so
       quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
       the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
       anything at all.  Now as a high school student God Himself
       convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
       remain quiet all the time.  I have to learn and allow God to
       give me a voice.  Today few people have any understanding of
       just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
       transformation is that complete.  My husband is one of the few
       people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
       sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
       to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
       nothing.  So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
       line.
       In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
       me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
       with the way it is usually taught.  Now my husband and I agree
       on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
       quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
       show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
       teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
       So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
       objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
       up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
       understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
       want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
       through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
       that is man made not scripture supported.
       #Post#: 4631--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 12:13 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
       date=1553697788]
       I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
       I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
       have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
       would have sold me for the money.  I have heard my father claim
       that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
       etc.  As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
       people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
       God gave me, I was content with that position.  However, as time
       progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
       God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
       wanted from me....a woman.
       In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
       and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
       school for my words were not welcomed or wanted.  I was so
       quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
       the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
       anything at all.  Now as a high school student God Himself
       convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
       remain quiet all the time.  I have to learn and allow God to
       give me a voice.  Today few people have any understanding of
       just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
       transformation is that complete.  My husband is one of the few
       people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
       sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
       to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
       nothing.  So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
       line.
       In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
       me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
       with the way it is usually taught.  Now my husband and I agree
       on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
       quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
       show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
       teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
       So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
       objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
       up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
       understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
       want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
       through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
       that is man made not scripture supported.
       [/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
       don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
       not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
       though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
       teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
       Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
       WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
       #Post#: 4633--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest24 Date: March 27, 2019, 12:37 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4631#msg4631
       date=1553706837]
       [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
       date=1553697788]
       I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
       I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
       have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
       would have sold me for the money.  I have heard my father claim
       that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
       etc.  As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
       people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
       God gave me, I was content with that position.  However, as time
       progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
       God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
       wanted from me....a woman.
       In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
       and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
       school for my words were not welcomed or wanted.  I was so
       quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
       the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
       anything at all.  Now as a high school student God Himself
       convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
       remain quiet all the time.  I have to learn and allow God to
       give me a voice.  Today few people have any understanding of
       just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
       transformation is that complete.  My husband is one of the few
       people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
       sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
       to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
       nothing.  So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
       line.
       In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
       me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
       with the way it is usually taught.  Now my husband and I agree
       on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
       quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
       show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
       teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
       So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
       objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
       up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
       understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
       want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
       through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
       that is man made not scripture supported.
       [/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
       don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
       not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
       though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
       teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
       Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
       WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
       [/quote]It was actually our pastor that pointed out to me about
       Jesus first appearing to woman...he knew I was struggling at the
       time he said it with worth and where I fit into the body of
       Christ.
       #Post#: 4635--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest8 Date: March 27, 2019, 8:09 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4633#msg4633
       date=1553708244]
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4631#msg4631
       date=1553706837]
       [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4627#msg4627
       date=1553697788]
       I was having trouble with posting, sorry for the separation.
       I would say it is fair to say I grew up with a tyrant father...I
       have said that if we had lived in a different culture he likely
       would have sold me for the money.  I have heard my father claim
       that a woman's salvation is through her husband and not Christ,
       etc.  As a result, I grew up understanding the "place" most
       people want woman to be placed in and because of the peace that
       God gave me, I was content with that position.  However, as time
       progressed and as my husband gave me value and demonstrated that
       God too saw me as valuable, I began wondering what God really
       wanted from me....a woman.
       In fact, I had been so taught that my value was only that of men
       and what they wanted from me that I refused to even speak in
       school for my words were not welcomed or wanted.  I was so
       quiet, so comfortable being quiet and letting everyone else have
       the value that I would shrug my shoulders if anyone asked me
       anything at all.  Now as a high school student God Himself
       convinced me that I could not be who HE wanted me to be and
       remain quiet all the time.  I have to learn and allow God to
       give me a voice.  Today few people have any understanding of
       just how completely God transformed this part of me for the
       transformation is that complete.  My husband is one of the few
       people who understands because he is aware that I still struggle
       sometimes with having any voice.....I am comfortable in my flesh
       to have none but uncomfortable in my spirit to sit and say
       nothing.  So I am constantly seeking to know where God draws the
       line.
       In my quest to know where God draws the line, my husband asked
       me to study the passage and I did and I found some huge problems
       with the way it is usually taught.  Now my husband and I agree
       on the conclusions I found but my flesh wants to return to the
       quiet woman that says nothing so I am seeking someone who can
       show me in scripture how the traditional teaching is the right
       teaching...the only problem is that it always falls short.
       So two things 1. don't be afraid to talk to me about it, my only
       objection to the traditional teaching is whether or not it lines
       up with the totality of scripture and it is that traditional
       understanding my flesh longs to return to. and 2. all I really
       want to know is how God wants me to be as per what He told us
       through His scriptures...so the only wrong answer is the one
       that is man made not scripture supported.
       [/quote]Good post Lori. Speaking only for myself, as a man I
       don't even think about this subject and I think most men might
       not either. I can see how a woman would want to discuss this
       though. I know that God uses women to spread His word and to
       teach all people male and female. It is true throughout the
       Bible and you made a great point that Jesus first appeared to
       WOMEN after His resurrection. That to me says everything.
       [/quote]It was actually our pastor that pointed out to me about
       Jesus first appearing to woman...he knew I was struggling at the
       time he said it with worth and where I fit into the body of
       Christ.
       [/quote]
       [shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
       as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
       body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
       singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
       I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
       might help you a little.
       "The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
       and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
       God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
       the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
       (12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
       church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
       is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
       reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
       women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
       to men in the church."
       It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
       For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
       following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
       shows compassion and understanding for the christian women.  His
       view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
       Bible literally.
       I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
       anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
       shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
       If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
       to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
       quit digging the hole any deeper.
       Blade
       [/shadow]
       #Post#: 4638--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: patrick jane Date: March 27, 2019, 9:40 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote]
       [shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
       as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
       body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
       singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
       I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
       might help you a little.
       "The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
       and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
       God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
       the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
       (12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
       church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
       is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
       reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
       women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
       to men in the church."
       It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
       For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
       following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
       shows compassion and understanding for the christian women.  His
       view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
       Bible literally.
       I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
       anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
       shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
       If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
       to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
       quit digging the hole any deeper.
       Blade
       [/shadow]
       [/quote]Did you mean to post a video Blade?
       #Post#: 4641--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest24 Date: March 28, 2019, 9:40 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4635#msg4635
       date=1553735367]
       [shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
       as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
       body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
       singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
       I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
       might help you a little.
       "The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
       and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
       God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
       the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
       (12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
       church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
       is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
       reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
       women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
       to men in the church."
       It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
       For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
       following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
       shows compassion and understanding for the christian women.  His
       view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
       Bible literally.
       I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
       anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
       shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
       If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
       to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
       quit digging the hole any deeper.
       Blade
       [/shadow]
       [/quote]thank you for your kindness and to be honest it is much
       more loving than what I was taught which I totally
       respect...however, there are still some discrepancies that I
       have a huge problem with.  For example, where did she get the
       authority she is NOT to usurp?  It had to come from somewhere.
       If this teaching is only for women not being in leadership why
       does it say "LIKEWISE" of the men...wouldn't likewise indicate
       the same teaching is being given to both men and women?  Not to
       mention the context of the Gen. passage where most interpret it
       to mean authority but there is nothing to indicate that.  There
       are some others but these three would be a great start.
       #Post#: 4650--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
       By: guest8 Date: March 28, 2019, 5:15 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4641#msg4641
       date=1553784049]
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4635#msg4635
       date=1553735367]
       [shadow=blue,left]Lori....You fit into the Body/Bride of Christ
       as all the others that believe in Jesus Christ do. We are one
       body which is why it is only spoken of in the Bible 'in the
       singular form'. You to me are a sister in Jesus Christ.
       I found this in one of my notes from Ligonier Ministries that
       might help you a little.
       "The exercise of authority within the Godhead reveals that men
       and women are fully equal even if women may not rule the church.
       God the Son is wholly equal to God the Father (John 1:1), but
       the Son willingly submits Himself to His Father’s authority
       (12:49; 14:10). Similarly, women must be submissive in the
       church not because women are incapable leaders but because this
       is how our Creator made us to reflect His image. Humanity better
       reflects our triune God when male elders rule lovingly and when
       women, being no less worthy than men, willingly cede authority
       to men in the church."
       It does appear you are getting closer to the answers you seek.
       For this reason, I urge you to re-listen to John. He is
       following the scripture closer than anyone I know of, yet he
       shows compassion and understanding for the christian women.  His
       view is as close to the traditional view and still read the
       Bible literally.
       I will vouch for this video and do not see anything left out or
       anything added that is not supposed to be there. John is
       shooting this subject as straight as it can be.
       If you have any other questions, please ask them and I will try
       to answer them despite the conventional wisdom of: I should just
       quit digging the hole any deeper.
       Blade
       [/shadow]
       [/quote]thank you for your kindness and to be honest it is much
       more loving than what I was taught which I totally
       respect...however, there are still some discrepancies that I
       have a huge problem with.  For example, where did she get the
       authority she is NOT to usurp?  It had to come from somewhere.
       If this teaching is only for women not being in leadership why
       does it say "LIKEWISE" of the men...wouldn't likewise indicate
       the same teaching is being given to both men and women?  Not to
       mention the context of the Gen. passage where most interpret it
       to mean authority but there is nothing to indicate that.  There
       are some others but these three would be a great start.
       [/quote]
       [shadow=blue,left]Hi Lori, I thank you for the kind words. Let's
       do one problem at a time. Let's start with authority.
       There are only two type of authority. That authority of GOD and
       the Authority of man which includes both male and female.
       God gave man the authority in the church and He did not give a
       woman any authority over man in the Church. He wants her to
       (without conflict) learn in peaceful (silence) The same word
       (silence) is translated as peaceful in 1 Tim 2:3...
       To Usurp Authority..
       αὐθεντέω
       authenteō G831, From a compound of
       αὐτός (G846) and an obsolete hentes
       (a worker), Used in one form (1x) in the Textus Receptus. It was
       translated to "usurp authority over"
       In earlier forms in the LXX Septuagint, it has a somewhat
       different meaning mainly because of the different Greek then and
       when the Textus Receptus was written.
       In the Textus Receptus: in later Greek writings one who does a
       thing himself, the author (τῆς
       πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2,
       etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent
       to
       αὐτοκράτωρ
       an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 [also as above;
       cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.]); to govern one, exercise
       dominion over one: τινός, 1 Timothy
       2:12.
       Lori, The authority would come from YOU! You would exercise (act
       on your own) authority to "usurp  authority"   over the
       authority given to Man by GOD!
       As in the home, Man cedes His God given  authority to you to run
       to run the home/children, etc. Here Man has given you
       authority.
       God gave you the authority over childbirth.
       In the public (outside of the church and Home) it comes either
       from yourself or the laws of civilization.
       Yet, is everyday situations, You exercise your authority (as a
       part of mankind) many times during the day.  It is this
       authority that God recognizes and commands you to refrain from
       using in the church (brick and mortar).
       Where this authority comes from, I have no idea but I do know
       women have it or at least my wife does. Boy, does she exercise
       it outside of the church.  LOL......
       trying to lighten the day for you.
       Summary:  It is your authority that You used.  You are more
       powerful than you think... Don't let your past get you down...
       For those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it
       ::: for those who forget their past, cannot learn from it.
       Hope this helps......Next question
       Blade
       [/shadow]
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