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#Post#: 4552--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 22, 2019, 12:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4551#msg4551
date=1553275485]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4548#msg4548
date=1553270173]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4547#msg4547
date=1553269965]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4545#msg4545
date=1553269748]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4542#msg4542
date=1553264195]
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
[/quote]Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her
authority over the man....where does that authority come from?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence.
The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority
but the womans....over the man's
[/quote]The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be
referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the
a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what
that is?
[/quote]how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
anyone...?
[/quote]I don't understand the question, how can a woman NOT
assume control over a man, is that what you're asking because
that's how it reads. So let's say that women have some
authority. Where does the Bible say that and explain what that
entails?
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[/quote]what I am saying is that the passage instructs women to
not usurp authority over the man...now in the culture of the day
the woman had no authority to usurp...so where in the verse does
that authority come from? If she has no authority to usurp why
would there be a teaching on not usurping the authority she does
NOT have? It would be like me giving an instruction to my baby
on how to drive a car even though they couldn't drive yet...what
is the point of such instruction if there is no authority for
her to usurp in the first place?
#Post#: 4554--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 22, 2019, 12:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Lori, I can see how you can interpret that from the verse but
then we need at least one more verse to reprove that. That leads
to the question of where else in the whole Bible does God speak
of a woman's authority, or any of the Bible authors?
#Post#: 4556--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 22, 2019, 1:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4554#msg4554
date=1553277018]
Lori, I can see how you can interpret that from the verse but
then we need at least one more verse to reprove that. That leads
to the question of where else in the whole Bible does God speak
of a woman's authority, or any of the Bible authors?
[/quote]fair enough....Proverbs 31...the wife of noble character
for one....notice some of the things it says about the wife of
noble character...she is doing business with the important men
of the day...we also see woman in authority throughout
scripture...like
HTML https://margmowczko.com/the-propriety-of-women-with-authority/
we can go further...Christianity was like the womens rights
movement of the day....NOW that does NOT mean it is like our
woman's movement but rather it was liberating for the woman of
the day and they didn't have any basis to know what to do with
that new found freedom they had in Christ. So they needed
instruction on how to use this new found freedom to the glory of
God. It doesn't mean that God was keeping them silent but
rather trying to teach them that there is a time and place and
since He gave them the authority, they needed to wait for Him to
open the door to use it...
another scripture...Galatians 3:28
#Post#: 4563--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 22, 2019, 10:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You
are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man) [/quote] the
chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only
interested in what scripture tells us...no chip [quote]
**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee" Gen 3:16[/quote] look at the context....16 Unto the
woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The context is clearly talking about the pain of child
birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want
children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual
relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.
The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all
about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to
say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word
is important to our understanding of the text.[/quote]
Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased
sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the
"; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the
commands of our LORD changes.
God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her
husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and
I both know there are many women who are married but desire
someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically
changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires
outside of the marriage.
In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of
man over the woman in the marriage.
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave
the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]God did not give women any authority to usurp
the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.
One verse is in GEN 3 and One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are
completely different in context yet the same to some degree.
One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows)
and two commands concerning the marriage.
1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is
clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon,
pastor or other Administrative position that places her above
any MAN in the church. [/shadow]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her
husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow.
In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we
have come and how far down we have fallen.[/quote] please show
this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in
scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT
there. [quote]
We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is
no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and
woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can
hookup just about anywhere. [/quote] Just because a society is
out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in
scripture. [quote]
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence."[/quote] Now...let's look at
this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that
they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.
So obviously there is more to that phrase. "Nor to usurp
authority over the man" Now I asked you where she got the
authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did
NOT answer the question. Obviously she was given authority by
someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we
know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from
men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is
not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was
an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be
silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet
spirit...just as men are to have. So no, in a study of the
passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live
in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
[quote] [/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer
not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the
second part it is MAN.
The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the
definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone
in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.
Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the
woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman
is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the
church.[/shadow]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of
authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this
commandment specifically to the women. Here to we also see just
how far we have come and how far we have fallen.[/quote] look at
the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how
a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9
where we transition into woman what does it say? IN LIKE
MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which
confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit
not words out of the mouth. [quote]
You might ask why did he write the commandments?
Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing
that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this
command on their own.
Is it not also true, there is a slight chance (depending on the
command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed
even when it is given.
GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be
subjective to your husband.[/quote] now...let's talk about godly
and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is
usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and
God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is
to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband
behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader
like that of Christ. But we fail to teach this, wanting woman
to be subservient to men. If you start looking into the meaning
of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non
military terms it means to work together, you know, going back
to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the
man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
[quote]
He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of
Man in the Church. [/quote] Here is what people do NOT get when
they talk to me about this topic. I was raised to be a slave to
men...and I was comfortable with that. It's all I knew. My
husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that
that is NOT what Paul is teaching here. How can I hold to what
I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is
wrong? Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me
if I ever do. In fact, I cannot count the number of times I
have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but
that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video
claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need
to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor
like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of
servant leadership. Amen and amen. [quote][/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]You husband is right, you said:"I was raised
to be a slave to men", This I have seen all to many times as
well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant
behavior.
My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the
only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and
in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.
Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every
one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and
the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Many men do not do this.[/shadow]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
*********
You then said:"likewise in the total passage"
"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more
specific?[/quote] see above...[quote]
The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight
forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a
choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically
or not. [/quote]
I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the
commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to
believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with
scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He
has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not
just some proof texted passage.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori... in the end, we either have to obey
God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and
the Man has his commands from GOD.
I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one
body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph.
5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man
have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every
man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the
head of Christ is God."
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 4572--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 23, 2019, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4563#msg4563
date=1553313070]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You
are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man) [/quote] the
chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only
interested in what scripture tells us...no chip [quote]
**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee" Gen 3:16[/quote] look at the context....16 Unto the
woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The context is clearly talking about the pain of child
birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want
children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual
relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.
The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all
about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to
say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word
is important to our understanding of the text.[/quote]
Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased
sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the
"; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the
commands of our LORD changes.
God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her
husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and
I both know there are many women who are married but desire
someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically
changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires
outside of the marriage.
In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of
man over the woman in the marriage.[/quote] HUH? You want me to
believe that the subject changes without warning from desiring
your husband even though it will hurt to bear his children to
the man's authority...how strange, either that or I am not
following your argument...people, both men and woman are
evil...what does that have to do with a change in subject
without warning that there is a change midway? [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave
the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]God did not give women any authority to usurp
the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.
One verse is in GEN 3 and One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are
completely different in context yet the same to some degree.
One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows)
and two commands concerning the marriage.
1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is
clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon,
pastor or other Administrative position that places her above
any MAN in the church. [/shadow]So repeating your assumptions
does NOT address what the text says. Let's try this
again...When the passage says that we woman are NOT to usurp
authority over a man it is not the man's authority that she is
not allowed to usurp over a man...so where did her authority she
is not suppose to usurp over the man come from...? that is the
question...The passage in Gen. is talking about desiring your
husband even though it will result in pain according to the
context.as to marriage what part of that passage do you want to
talk about? [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her
husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow.
In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we
have come and how far down we have fallen.[/quote] please show
this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in
scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT
there. [quote]
We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is
no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and
woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can
hookup just about anywhere. [/quote] Just because a society is
out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in
scripture. [quote]
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence."[/quote] Now...let's look at
this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that
they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.
So obviously there is more to that phrase. "Nor to usurp
authority over the man" Now I asked you where she got the
authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did
NOT answer the question. Obviously she was given authority by
someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we
know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from
men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is
not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was
an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be
silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet
spirit...just as men are to have. So no, in a study of the
passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live
in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
[quote] [/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer
not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the
second part it is MAN.[/quote] so in this passage there is NO
change in subject but in the Gen. passage there is? What makes
us think that is a solid exegesis of scripture?
Ah but that was not my point about teaching...my point was that
obviously something is missing in our interpretation when we see
"I do not suffer woman to teach" but then we see them admonished
to teach both children and younger woman...so the "literal"
teaching is a bit off based on what we know about
teaching...[quote]
The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the
definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone
in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.
Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the
woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman
is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the
church.[/shadow][/quote] again you failed to make your case, all
you did was repeat what was already said and offered no rebuttal
of what I pointed out to you.
Silence means quiet as in quiet and peaceful spirit, just like
the men...that is the point. [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of
authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this
commandment specifically to the women. Here to we also see just
how far we have come and how far we have fallen.[/quote] look at
the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how
a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9
where we transition into woman what does it say? IN LIKE
MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which
confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit
not words out of the mouth. [quote]
You might ask why did he write the commandments?
Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing
that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this
command on their own.
Is it not also true, there is a slight chance (depending on the
command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed
even when it is given.
GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be
subjective to your husband.[/quote] now...let's talk about godly
and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is
usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and
God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is
to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband
behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader
like that of Christ. But we fail to teach this, wanting woman
to be subservient to men. If you start looking into the meaning
of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non
military terms it means to work together, you know, going back
to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the
man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
[quote]
He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of
Man in the Church. [/quote] Here is what people do NOT get when
they talk to me about this topic. I was raised to be a slave to
men...and I was comfortable with that. It's all I knew. My
husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that
that is NOT what Paul is teaching here. How can I hold to what
I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is
wrong? Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me
if I ever do. In fact, I cannot count the number of times I
have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but
that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video
claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need
to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor
like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of
servant leadership. Amen and amen. [quote][/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]You husband is right, you said:"I was raised
to be a slave to men", This I have seen all to many times as
well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant
behavior.
My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the
only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and
in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.
[/quote] No where that I know of does scripture tell woman to be
silent in their marriage...and the passage in question does NOT
command woman to be silent in their churches either...at least
as it is studied using the totality of scripture to interpret
scripture....now that does NOT mean I am advocating woman take
over the church or even become pastors...what I am saying is
that that teaching is no where in scripture that I can find and
thus we dare not read into the scripture what is not there.
For example...who did Christ choose to first preach the truth of
his resurrection? A man or a woman? Telling the world about
His resurrection is the very message of the Church and it was
women that first took the gospel message to the men of the
church....so how then can we claim that woman have no authority
to teach men when Christ Himself chose woman to teach the men
about His resurrection...? Did Christ violate the command of
Paul about women teaching men? [quote]
Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every
one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and
the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Many men do not do this.[/shadow]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
*********
You then said:"likewise in the total passage"
"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more
specific?[/quote] see above...[quote]
The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight
forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a
choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically
or not. [/quote]
I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the
commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to
believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with
scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He
has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not
just some proof texted passage.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori... in the end, we either have to obey
God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and
the Man has his commands from GOD.[/quote] but you have failed
to show how your interpretation of the passage is in correct
line with the totality of scripture. [quote]
I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one
body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph.
5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man
have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every
man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the
head of Christ is God."
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]not sure how that informs us of this passages intent...
#Post#: 4577--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 23, 2019, 11:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4572#msg4572
date=1553350404]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4563#msg4563
date=1553313070]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You
are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man) [/quote] the
chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only
interested in what scripture tells us...no chip [quote]
**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee" Gen 3:16[/quote] look at the context....16 Unto the
woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The context is clearly talking about the pain of child
birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want
children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual
relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.
The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all
about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to
say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word
is important to our understanding of the text.[/quote]
Hi Lori.... Yes it is speaking of Child birth and the increased
sorrows it will bring to all women having a child. However, the
"; " after 'children' and the "and" in the next statement the
commands of our LORD changes.
God's judgement on the woman is that she IS TO desire her
husband. For those that have no husband, no worries. But you and
I both know there are many women who are married but desire
someone else. Having married in 1969, times have drastically
changed and more of both man and woman seek their desires
outside of the marriage.
In the last part of the verse, God is giving the authority of
man over the woman in the marriage.[/quote] HUH? You want me to
believe that the subject changes without warning from desiring
your husband even though it will hurt to bear his children to
the man's authority...how strange, either that or I am not
following your argument...people, both men and woman are
evil...what does that have to do with a change in subject
without warning that there is a change midway? [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave
the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]God did not give women any authority to usurp
the God given authority of MAN in the church and marriage.
One verse is in GEN 3 and One verse is in 1 Tim 2. Both are
completely different in context yet the same to some degree.
One pertains to both Judgement because of her sin (the sorrows)
and two commands concerning the marriage.
1Tim 2 pertains to the conduct of a woman in the church. It is
clear She is not supposed to desire to become an elder, deacon,
pastor or other Administrative position that places her above
any MAN in the church. [/shadow]So repeating your assumptions
does NOT address what the text says. Let's try this
again...When the passage says that we woman are NOT to usurp
authority over a man it is not the man's authority that she is
not allowed to usurp over a man...so where did her authority she
is not suppose to usurp over the man come from...? that is the
question...The passage in Gen. is talking about desiring your
husband even though it will result in pain according to the
context.as to marriage what part of that passage do you want to
talk about? [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her
husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow.
In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we
have come and how far down we have fallen.[/quote] please show
this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in
scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT
there. [quote]
We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is
no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and
woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can
hookup just about anywhere. [/quote] Just because a society is
out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in
scripture. [quote]
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence."[/quote] Now...let's look at
this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that
they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.
So obviously there is more to that phrase. "Nor to usurp
authority over the man" Now I asked you where she got the
authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did
NOT answer the question. Obviously she was given authority by
someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we
know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from
men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is
not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was
an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be
silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet
spirit...just as men are to have. So no, in a study of the
passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live
in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
[quote] [/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]The whole verse is one subject: "But I suffer
not a woman to teach" To teach what or whom???/ we see in the
second part it is MAN.[/quote] so in this passage there is NO
change in subject but in the Gen. passage there is? What makes
us think that is a solid exegesis of scripture?
Ah but that was not my point about teaching...my point was that
obviously something is missing in our interpretation when we see
"I do not suffer woman to teach" but then we see them admonished
to teach both children and younger woman...so the "literal"
teaching is a bit off based on what we know about
teaching...[quote]
The second part:"nor to usurp authority over the man," By the
definition of "usurp' alone meaning "take the place of (someone
in a position of power) illegally; supplant." among other defs.
Then in the third part of the verse, He restates the how the
woman is to accomplish this: "but to be in silence". The woman
is not to make or rebut any decisions of authority in the
church.[/shadow][/quote] again you failed to make your case, all
you did was repeat what was already said and offered no rebuttal
of what I pointed out to you.
Silence means quiet as in quiet and peaceful spirit, just like
the men...that is the point. [quote]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of
authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this
commandment specifically to the women. Here to we also see just
how far we have come and how far we have fallen.[/quote] look at
the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how
a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9
where we transition into woman what does it say? IN LIKE
MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which
confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit
not words out of the mouth. [quote]
You might ask why did he write the commandments?
Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing
that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this
command on their own.
Is it not also true, there is a slight chance (depending on the
command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed
even when it is given.
GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be
subjective to your husband.[/quote] now...let's talk about godly
and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is
usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and
God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is
to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband
behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader
like that of Christ. But we fail to teach this, wanting woman
to be subservient to men. If you start looking into the meaning
of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non
military terms it means to work together, you know, going back
to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the
man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
[quote]
He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of
Man in the Church. [/quote] Here is what people do NOT get when
they talk to me about this topic. I was raised to be a slave to
men...and I was comfortable with that. It's all I knew. My
husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that
that is NOT what Paul is teaching here. How can I hold to what
I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is
wrong? Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me
if I ever do. In fact, I cannot count the number of times I
have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but
that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video
claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need
to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor
like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of
servant leadership. Amen and amen. [quote][/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]You husband is right, you said:"I was raised
to be a slave to men", This I have seen all to many times as
well. wrong interpretation leads to all kinds of variant
behavior.
My hat is off to you for your holding of your silence but the
only two places this commands take place is in the marriage and
in the Church (specifically at the administration) positions.
[/quote] No where that I know of does scripture tell woman to be
silent in their marriage...and the passage in question does NOT
command woman to be silent in their churches either...at least
as it is studied using the totality of scripture to interpret
scripture....now that does NOT mean I am advocating woman take
over the church or even become pastors...what I am saying is
that that teaching is no where in scripture that I can find and
thus we dare not read into the scripture what is not there.
For example...who did Christ choose to first preach the truth of
his resurrection? A man or a woman? Telling the world about
His resurrection is the very message of the Church and it was
women that first took the gospel message to the men of the
church....so how then can we claim that woman have no authority
to teach men when Christ Himself chose woman to teach the men
about His resurrection...? Did Christ violate the command of
Paul about women teaching men? [quote]
Paul teaches the Husband in Eph 5:33.."Nevertheless let every
one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and
the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Many men do not do this.[/shadow]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4540#msg4540
date=1553262440]
*********
You then said:"likewise in the total passage"
"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more
specific?[/quote] see above...[quote]
The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight
forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a
choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically
or not. [/quote]
I choose to obey and repent when I slip up...but I obey the
commands of God not the commands of men so if you want me to
believe you have knowledge about this topic, prove it with
scripture so that I can repent of being the woman of God that He
has instructed me to be throughout the totality of scripture not
just some proof texted passage.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori... in the end, we either have to obey
God's commands or NOT? The woman has her commands from GOD and
the Man has his commands from GOD.[/quote] but you have failed
to show how your interpretation of the passage is in correct
line with the totality of scripture. [quote]
I might add, in the Church(body/bride) of Christ, we are one
body. Jesus is the Head and savior as Paul states in Eph.
5:23.."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
some extras:
1 Co 7:22.."Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man
have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
1 Co 11:3.."But I would have you know, that the head of every
man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the
head of Christ is God."
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]not sure how that informs us of this passages intent...
[/quote]
********************
[shadow=blue,left]
Lori..1 Tim 2:11-12.."“A woman must quietly receive instruction
with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach
or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” NASB95
1 Tim 2: 11-12 "Let the woman learn in silence with all
subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence." KJV
Paul here defines women as learners during the worship service.
They are not to be teachers in that context, but neither are
they to be shut out of the learning process.[sup]1[/sup]
There have been a lot of women who have used as you have a
different meaning of the word "quietly/silence". You Said: ".but
to be silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet
spirit.."
In other words, women can teach and preach as long as they have
the proper attitude. Is this what you mean!
Paul's words in verse 12, implies that women wanted (desired) to
teach and have authority (over man). We have this in today's
church as well as women who do not want or like their GOD-given
roles in this life. They want authority over men and more.
Paul took the right road and forbids Women from taking an
authoritative teacher-pastor role in the church. He forbids
women from exercising authority over a man[sup]1[/sup].
The Greek word "authentein" meaning "“exercise authority over,”
was discussed at the Atlantic District Convention (June 3-4,
1994) requesting that the Commission on Theology and Church
Relations address concerns related to the “terms and
definitions” [sup]3[/sup]. Their conclusion was:
"Though they have expanded and refined Knight‟s analysis,
the lexical studies conducted since 1985, in the
Commission‟s view, have strongly confirmed Knight‟s
basic conclusion. The studies have confirmed that the term ought
to be translated “exercise authority over.” In the
Commission‟s view the English Standard Version accurately
translates 1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or
to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain
quiet.” Adopted April 16, 2005..... [sup]2[/sup]
“As in all the churches of the saints, women should remain
silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must
be in submission, as the Law says . . . it is disgraceful for a
woman to speak in church” (1 Corinthians 14:33–35, NIV).
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all
churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the
churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they
are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And
if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1
Cor 14:33-35..KJV
While Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy and to the church of
Ephesus in general, one might interpret this command was for
this culture/churches only.However, Yet the way Paul uses the
word (Forbids), made it for churches of today.
Lori... It is really up to you on which way you interpret these
verses. I urge you to read some the references I have posted
before you make up your mind.
********
Blade[/shadow]
(1)Can Women Exercise Authority in the Church? ,Unleashing God's
Truth, One Verse at a Time
(2)AUTHENTEIN, the Atlantic District
Convention (June 3-4, 1994) requesting that the Commission on
Theology and Church Relations address concerns related to the
“terms and definitions” of the following “as they explicate how
women function as the church”..
#Post#: 4599--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 25, 2019, 11:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Apparently what I am saying will not be viewed in light of the
totality of scripture, so let me ask another question....
Who did Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?
#Post#: 4609--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 25, 2019, 10:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4599#msg4599
date=1553532633]
Apparently what I am saying will not be viewed in light of the
totality of scripture, so let me ask another question....
Who did Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]
LORI... The LORD went high when He placed women in the child
bearing section. It was her seed through which salvation is
possible. Women of Jewish and Gentile descent have been placed
in the blood line of Jesus Christ. No better credentials can be
had. Yet, the woman was the first to sin against GOD and the
fall of man was placed on ADAM, not EVE. For the love of a
woman, all of mankind fell.
There were other women in the Bible who preached and taught the
gospel of Jesus Christ. NONE of them were in a Church.
You are talking about contradictions in the Bible where there
are none.The time period you are referring to brings what you
are saying about Jesus breaking his own rules before He even
makes them.
Timothy did not even have a church during this time? Paul was
still Saul of Tarsus. etc.
This is where you are jumping the tracks. Be very careful not to
listen to the Feminist activist of the modern day. GOD's rules
have not changed. and most of theirs have. Of, course I could
have missed the memo??????
1 Tim 2:9-15 is referring to how women would dress and act in
the Church. Rem, the epistle to Timothy was also for the church
of Ephesus.
Hope you have a quite and peaceful evening.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 4612--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 26, 2019, 10:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4609#msg4609
date=1553572728]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4599#msg4599
date=1553532633]
Apparently what I am saying will not be viewed in light of the
totality of scripture, so let me ask another question....
Who did Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]
LORI... The LORD went high when He placed women in the child
bearing section. It was her seed through which salvation is
possible. Women of Jewish and Gentile descent have been placed
in the blood line of Jesus Christ. No better credentials can be
had. Yet, the woman was the first to sin against GOD and the
fall of man was placed on ADAM, not EVE. For the love of a
woman, all of mankind fell.
There were other women in the Bible who preached and taught the
gospel of Jesus Christ. NONE of them were in a Church.[/quote]
I have no issue with the above...as I have said, I am
comfortable with woman not being in leadership in the church but
I simply don't see that teaching as per what the text actually
does say...so let me ask you this question? What is the church?
Isn't the church the body of believers? [quote]
You are talking about contradictions in the Bible where there
are none.The time period you are referring to brings what you
are saying about Jesus breaking his own rules before He even
makes them. [/quote] HUH? [quote]
Timothy did not even have a church during this time? Paul was
still Saul of Tarsus. etc.
This is where you are jumping the tracks. Be very careful not to
listen to the Feminist activist of the modern day. GOD's rules
have not changed. and most of theirs have. Of, course I could
have missed the memo??????[/quote] lol I laugh because if you
knew me you would know that I am in trouble all the time for
speaking against the feminist agenda...I am so contrary to the
feminist agenda it's funny for you to warn me not to listen to
them. [quote]
1 Tim 2:9-15 is referring to how women would dress and act in
the Church. Rem, the epistle to Timothy was also for the church
of Ephesus.
Hope you have a quite and peaceful evening.
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]I would still love it if you addressed some of these
points I am making.
May you be refreshed in your faith as you renew your mind in
Christ.
#Post#: 4614--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 26, 2019, 6:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4612#msg4612
date=1553612990]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg4609#msg4609
date=1553572728]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4599#msg4599
date=1553532633]
Apparently what I am saying will not be viewed in light of the
totality of scripture, so let me ask another question....
Who did Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]
LORI... The LORD went high when He placed women in the child
bearing section. It was her seed through which salvation is
possible. Women of Jewish and Gentile descent have been placed
in the blood line of Jesus Christ. No better credentials can be
had. Yet, the woman was the first to sin against GOD and the
fall of man was placed on ADAM, not EVE. For the love of a
woman, all of mankind fell.
There were other women in the Bible who preached and taught the
gospel of Jesus Christ. NONE of them were in a Church.[/quote]
I have no issue with the above...as I have said, I am
comfortable with woman not being in leadership in the church but
I simply don't see that teaching as per what the text actually
does say...so let me ask you this question? What is the church?
Isn't the church the body of believers? [quote]
You are talking about contradictions in the Bible where there
are none.The time period you are referring to brings what you
are saying about Jesus breaking his own rules before He even
makes them. [/quote]
HUH? [quote]
Timothy did not even have a church during this time? Paul was
still Saul of Tarsus. etc.
This is where you are jumping the tracks. Be very careful not to
listen to the Feminist activist of the modern day. GOD's rules
have not changed. and most of theirs have. Of, course I could
have missed the memo??????[/quote]
lol I laugh because if you knew me you would know that I am in
trouble all the time for speaking against the feminist
agenda...I am so contrary to the feminist agenda it's funny for
you to warn me not to listen to them. [quote]
1 Tim 2:9-15 is referring to how women would dress and act in
the Church. Rem, the epistle to Timothy was also for the church
of Ephesus.
Hope you have a quite and peaceful evening.
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]I would still love it if you addressed some of these
points I am making.
May you be refreshed in your faith as you renew your mind in
Christ.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]**
Lori, It seems I am digging myself a hole I cannot get out
of.....
The church Paul is speaking of to Timothy is a Brick and Mortar
Church at Ephesus.
**
As for contradictions..You said in an earlier post:"Who did
Christ first appear to after He was resurrected? Men or
woman...? What were these people told to do? Who were they to
teach about the resurrection of the Christ? Why then does the
resurrected Christ violate Paul's teaching?" (a Contradiction)
At the resurrection, The epistles of Paul were not yet written!
**
you said:"lol I laugh because if you knew me you would know that
I am in trouble all the time for speaking against the feminist
agenda...I am so contrary to the feminist agenda it's funny for
you to warn me not to listen to them. "
If I offended you, I apologize. It is so hard to talk about this
subject, man to woman. I have tried several times and wind up
every time in the same hole?
However, even when you heard John MacArthur explanation (which
is the same as mine) your back was up immediately against the
wall. Why was this... I still do not understand your
question:"how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
anyone...?" 'another question asked who gave this authority
over man..not man' (paraphrased)
And then I made a humongous mistake. To talk about Gen 3 in
comparison on what GOD's intent for Women really was. A deeper
hole for sure.
So, I guess I am all out of anything to teach. Except, the
Church Paul Spoke of in 1 Tim 2:9-15 was the church at
Ephesus. A church of Brick and Mortar. Teaching by women is
permitted elsewhere but not in the House of GOD.
The Church (Body/Bride) of Jesus Christ is spiritual in nature
and in its body, we are ONE!
As far as the other points, I would be happy to address them .
Please restate them and I promise to stay on topic.
Blade
[/shadow]
*****************************************************
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