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#Post#: 5074--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 19, 2019, 11:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lori Bolinger link ---
>
> [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg5063#msg5063
date=1555635040]
> [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg5050#msg5050
date=1555604023]
> [quote author=Sherman link=topic=379.msg5026#msg5026
date=1555535323]
> I am a Johnny come lately to this discussion but there is
somnething I have noticed about this verse:1 Timothy 2:12 But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the
man, but to be in silence.
>
> Note the part I have bolded. It is Paul that does not suffer
these things. As such I do not think this applies to the modern
church.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have seen this teaching but I don't think I can buy it anymore
than I can buy the interpretation Blade is presenting
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Well at least my teaching is on authority of
GOD's WORD not mine. 1 TIM 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to
teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in
silence."
Those are Jesus's Words not mine. There is only one
interpretation to it, HIS interpretation.
If you want to disagree with HIM fine as that a decision only
you can make.
The problem is, you are only going to get ONE Decision..... You
either believe the Bible is His WORD and He says what He means
and Means what He says or You do not!
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]Blade...I presented the study I did where I allowed
scripture to interpret scripture for us and you didn't make any
comments at all to show where I missed what scripture is telling
us...why? If I am wrong and if scripture does NOT clarify God's
intended meaning, why do you refuse to show me where I missed
the mark?
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]alright, let me go back a reread you post to
see if I missed something.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5119--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest24
Date: April 22, 2019, 11:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
#Post#: 5135--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 22, 2019, 10:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lori Bolinger link ---
>
> Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
>
--- End Quote ---
[shadow=blue,left]
Just a wee-bit condescending don't you think? "Those convinced
against their will are of the same opinion still" Dale Carnegie.
So, why should I try.... For those who are not so hard set
against GOD's WORD!
Have a good day!
My reply will forthwith!
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5144--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest24
Date: April 23, 2019, 7:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bladerunner link ---
>
> [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg5119#msg5119
date=1555952223]
> Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
>
--- End Quote ---
[shadow=blue,left]
Just a wee-bit condescending don't you think? "Those convinced
against their will are of the same opinion still" Dale Carnegie.
So, why should I try.... For those who are not so hard set
against GOD's WORD!
Have a good day!
My reply will forthwith!
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]I have been keeping my husband updated on this
discussion since he and I talk a lot about the topic as per what
scripture really does teach...he predicted you would not address
the study I did and try to show me where I got it wrong...his
theory is that men refuse to do so because they are looking for
an excuse to justify their own sins.
As to condescending..I do not know why you would say such a
thing given it was a genuine thank you. I have been trying to
get someone other than my husband to discuss it with me and I
became over excited I guess....which I guess you read as
condescending.....sorry you took my excitement as condescending
but disappointed that you refuse to show me where I got it
wrong.
#Post#: 5213--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 27, 2019, 1:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lori Bolinger link ---
>
>
> Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
>
--- End Quote ---
[shadow=blue,left] Your question was put in one of your post
which I have copied it here. You said: "So question I purposed
we think about....I have something to think on while I am
gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it,
what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?
More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.
As the Bride of Christ, the church is to take on the role of the
wife in Ephesians 5...so when we are talking about men and the
church, the men must (if the traditional understanding is
correct) stop trying to run the church and usurp their own
authority over that of Christ and be silent..
I had at one time brushed this off but after considerable
research, have come back to it.
You are confusing the term "Bride of Christ" with that of a
woman spoken of in 1 Tm 2:11; 1 Cor 14:34; 1 Tim 2:12.
The 'Bride of Christ' is patterned after the Jewish Wedding and
as a prologue to the Rapture. The first step of the "Betrothal"
is for the prospective groom to negotiate a price that must be
paid for the Bride. We see this in the purchase of both Leah and
Rachel with 14 years of work for payment. We also see this in
the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the purchase for the Bride(His
Church).
Note: Once the purchase price was paid in full, the Groom and
the Bride were considered in a marriage covenant, thus the
Church (Body and Bride) of Jesus is a done deal.
To be true to the pattern, the Groom would leave to His father's
house to prepare a place for the Bride which usually took a year
to complete. The Bride during this time would prepare herself
for marriage and gather her dowry. (1)
Did not Jesus tell us that He is leaving to His father's house
to prepare a place for us? John 14:2
When the Groom returns for His wife to be with a "Shout". (1 Th
4:16).
**
Are the passages (1 Tim 2:11-12) we speak of obscure or straight
forward.
According to Daniel Doriani, they have been traditionally
interpreted in a straight forward manner. He says: "But
suddenly, with the advent of modern feminism, many scholars have
decided that these texts are obscure. Why has this happened? The
texts did not change.”(2)
As C. S. Lewis once remarked, “We all want progress, but if
you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and
walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns
back soonest is the most progressive.”(3)
Perceived clarity and purported certainty simply are not
indicators of truth. (4)
It appears that both complementarians and egalitarians hold to
the "obscure in light of clear" hermeneutical principle. "If
basic rules of hermeneutics can be so easily set aside when it
is theologically convenient, upon what grounds do such
concessions stop?"(5)
“Gal 3:28 asserts that there is equality in the church, so
women should be able to do everything men can do” (a common
caricature propagated by critics of women pastors). Rather, the
argument is, “Gal 3:28 asserts that there is inherently no
sexism in the body of Christ, and forbidding women from doing
certain activities [e.g., pastoring] solely because of their sex
is sexist.”(6)
**
Where in the Bible is Scripture interpret Scripture:
2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:”" If that is true,
then it follows that all Scripture has one divine author even if
it has many human authors" (7).
Yet, in John 20:31, gives the Book of JOHN purpose as it does
all of scripture in the Bible. One could take all the prophecies
of Christ from Entry into Jerusalem to His resurrection as
scripture interpreting scripture.
During Creation, God rested on the seventh day. There is much
about the amount of time each day contain yet in Exodus 20:8-11,
these scripture define the 7th day as a 24 hour day.
Summary: I have looked at many different articles, concerning
the interpretation of 1 TIM 2:11-12 and have listed some of
them. For me, there is only one way to read these scripture as I
feel they are not obscure in any form nor do any other
scriptures force a different view on their meaning. They are
straight forward and along with 1 Cor 14:34-35, they imply the
commandments of Jesus exactly as they were written. If your
hermeneutics consider the Literal, Historical and Grammatical
text as the Word of GOD, as the Commands He left mankind to
follow, you will adhere to the traditional viewpoints of this
argument.
On the other hand if you interpret the WORD of GOD using a
progressive agenda or world view, then these scriptures are
obscure and hard to read and with other scriptures pulled from
the Bible, allow the woman to do anything a man can do in the
church.
The scriptures in this case, do not mean what they say but
rather what one feels like they should say or whatever is
relative. In this case, we need to throw the Bible away for
every word in the Bible is then suspect to it correctness, etc.
Thank goodness, this is a personal decision to accept the Bible
(KJV) as it says in 1 TIM 2:12.."But I suffer not a woman to
teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in
silence."
You in the end, regardless of what I say, the bereans say, your
husband says, will have to answer for your own decision on this
matter.
It is very clear that the Bride of Christ does not have anything
to do with these passages but rather the coming Rapture of the
Bride (His spiritual Church) is contrasted to a Jewish Wedding.
Lori, I have spent many hours on this and have tried to give you
a sensible answer. I can do no more...It is time for you to make
that decision. I will pray that you make the right one according
to my interpretation.
Hope you have a lovely day tomorrow.
Blade
p..s say hi to your husband and I hope you bet him on that
prophecy He made. Oh, well we know one thing, He is not a
prophet or soothsayer! ;D
[/shaddow]
1.
HTML http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9290-ketubah
2. Grudem, Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, 364.
3. C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, in The Complete C. S. Lewis
Signature Classics (New York: HarperOne, 2002), 33.
4. For more on this important topic, especially as it relates to
bibliology, see Carlos Bovell, Rehabilitating Inerrancy in a
Culture of Fear (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2012); idem, Inerrancy
and the Spiritual Formation of Younger Evangelicals (Eugene:
Wipf & Stock, 2015); James Barr, Beyond Fundamentalism
(Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1984); Christian Smith, The
Bible Made Impossible: Why Biblicism Is Not a Truly Evangelical
Reading of Scripture (Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2012); N. T.
Wright, Scripture and the Authority of God (New York: HarperOne,
2013); John Goldingay, Models for Scripture (Toronto: Clements,
2004); idem, Models for Interpretation of Scripture (Toronto:
Clements, 2004); Craig Allert, A High View of Scripture? (Grand
Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007); Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty
(New York: HarperCollins, 2016). For more on this topic in
general, see Greg Boyd, Benefit of the Doubt: Breaking the Idol
of Certainty (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2013).
5. Revisiting the Clarity of Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12
6. ibid
7. Christian Answers to Two Roman Catholic Questions on
“Catholic Answers”
#Post#: 5224--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest24
Date: April 27, 2019, 12:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bladerunner link ---
>
> [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg5144#msg5144
date=1556023998]
>
> Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
>
--- End Quote ---
this isn't the study I was talking about...but I assume you know
that....
--- Quote ---
>
>
> [shadow=blue,left] Your question was put in one of your post
which I have copied it here. You said: "So question I purposed
we think about....I have something to think on while I am
gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it,
what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?
More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.
>
> As the Bride of Christ, the church is to take on the role of
the wife in Ephesians 5...so when we are talking about men and
the church, the men must (if the traditional understanding is
correct) stop trying to run the church and usurp their own
authority over that of Christ and be silent..
>
> I had at one time brushed this off but after considerable
research, have come back to it.
>
> You are confusing the term "Bride of Christ" with that of a
woman spoken of in 1 Tm 2:11; 1 Cor 14:34; 1 Tim 2:12.
--- End Quote ---
why do you always assume I am confusing terms without
understanding of what I am saying? wouldn't it be more
profitable for you to ask for clarification if you don't
understand rather than assume I am confusing terms?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The 'Bride of Christ' is patterned after the Jewish Wedding
and as a prologue to the Rapture. The first step of the
"Betrothal" is for the prospective groom to negotiate a price
that must be paid for the Bride. We see this in the purchase of
both Leah and Rachel with 14 years of work for payment. We also
see this in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the purchase for
the Bride(His Church).
>
> Note: Once the purchase price was paid in full, the Groom and
the Bride were considered in a marriage covenant, thus the
Church (Body and Bride) of Jesus is a done deal.
>
> To be true to the pattern, the Groom would leave to His
father's house to prepare a place for the Bride which usually
took a year to complete. The Bride during this time would
prepare herself for marriage and gather her dowry. (1)
>
> Did not Jesus tell us that He is leaving to His father's house
to prepare a place for us? John 14:2
>
> When the Groom returns for His wife to be with a "Shout". (1
Th 4:16).
--- End Quote ---
yep....but not part of the discussion.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> **
> Are the passages (1 Tim 2:11-12) we speak of obscure or
straight forward.
>
> According to Daniel Doriani, they have been traditionally
interpreted in a straight forward manner. He says: "But
suddenly, with the advent of modern feminism, many scholars have
decided that these texts are obscure. Why has this happened? The
texts did not change.”(2)
--- End Quote ---
as I previously stated, we cannot allow modern sins to tell us
how to interpret a passage....you said you weren't doing that
then come here and confess to that very thing. In fact, the very
study I asked you to look at and show me where I have it wrong,
did NOT assume anything at all about the text or culture....all
it did was look at the text and ask what it really was telling
us as per scripture interpreting scripture. Previously you said
that for me to allow scripture to interpret scripture would draw
me away from God and His word but you show no reason for your
claims...how can I consider what you are saying as truth without
something to judge your claims by?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> As C. S. Lewis once remarked, “We all want progress, but if
you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and
walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns
back soonest is the most progressive.”(3)
>
> Perceived clarity and purported certainty simply are not
indicators of truth. (4)
--- End Quote ---
not sure what you are trying to say here.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> It appears that both complementarians and egalitarians hold to
the "obscure in light of clear" hermeneutical principle. "If
basic rules of hermeneutics can be so easily set aside when it
is theologically convenient, upon what grounds do such
concessions stop?"(5)
--- End Quote ---
so show me where I laid hermeneutics aside...
--- Quote ---
>
>
> “Gal 3:28 asserts that there is equality in the church, so
women should be able to do everything men can do” (a common
caricature propagated by critics of women pastors). Rather, the
argument is, “Gal 3:28 asserts that there is inherently no
sexism in the body of Christ, and forbidding women from doing
certain activities [e.g., pastoring] solely because of their sex
is sexist.”(6)
--- End Quote ---
again not sure how that applies to anything I said.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> **
> Where in the Bible is Scripture interpret Scripture:
>
> 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:”" If that is true,
then it follows that all Scripture has one divine author even if
it has many human authors" (7).
>
> Yet, in John 20:31, gives the Book of JOHN purpose as it does
all of scripture in the Bible. One could take all the prophecies
of Christ from Entry into Jerusalem to His resurrection as
scripture interpreting scripture.
>
> During Creation, God rested on the seventh day. There is much
about the amount of time each day contain yet in Exodus 20:8-11,
these scripture define the 7th day as a 24 hour day.
>
> Summary: I have looked at many different articles, concerning
the interpretation of 1 TIM 2:11-12 and have listed some of
them. For me, there is only one way to read these scripture as I
feel they are not obscure in any form nor do any other
scriptures force a different view on their meaning. They are
straight forward and along with 1 Cor 14:34-35, they imply the
commandments of Jesus exactly as they were written. If your
hermeneutics consider the Literal, Historical and Grammatical
text as the Word of GOD, as the Commands He left mankind to
follow, you will adhere to the traditional viewpoints of this
argument.
--- End Quote ---
Why? If the traditional viewpoints are wrong, why would I hold
to them simply because they are the traditionally help POV's?
As to scripture interpreting scripture...as I study scripture I
refuse to assume any understanding that is not supported
throughout the scriptures....but that is another discussion I
think
--- Quote ---
>
>
> On the other hand if you interpret the WORD of GOD using a
progressive agenda or world view, then these scriptures are
obscure and hard to read and with other scriptures pulled from
the Bible, allow the woman to do anything a man can do in the
church.
--- End Quote ---
well that would leave out what I am saying because as I have
told you, I am not progressive thinking in this area...as to
other scripture...if it isn't stated several places in
scripture, how can we know for sure we have the intended
meaning?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The scriptures in this case, do not mean what they say but
rather what one feels like they should say or whatever is
relative. In this case, we need to throw the Bible away for
every word in the Bible is then suspect to it correctness, etc.
--- End Quote ---
so you believe I should throw away the bible because I want it
to say the traditional understanding but can't find that backed
up in scripture? Isn't that putting self and tradition above
God and what He says?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Thank goodness, this is a personal decision to accept the
Bible (KJV) as it says in 1 TIM 2:12.."But I suffer not a woman
to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in
silence."
--- End Quote ---
well my personal decision is to accept everything God says as
He intends for it to be understood...I don't know any other way
to serve and Love Him.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> You in the end, regardless of what I say, the bereans say,
your husband says, will have to answer for your own decision on
this matter.
>
> It is very clear that the Bride of Christ does not have
anything to do with these passages but rather the coming Rapture
of the Bride (His spiritual Church) is contrasted to a Jewish
Wedding.
--- End Quote ---
You missed the point I was making...as Head of the man....the
man must be in submission to Christ...that is the point. In
scripture that picture is of "silence" ....so, let me see if I
can phrase this another way...if Christ is the head of the
Church and the head of the man...then men are no more qualified
to run the church than woman are....Christ alone is to run the
church....men need to sit at the feet of Jesus in "silence"
learning in all submission to Christ as He teaches and runs the
church.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Lori, I have spent many hours on this and have tried to give
you a sensible answer. I can do no more...It is time for you to
make that decision. I will pray that you make the right one
according to my interpretation.
--- End Quote ---
I will continue to take the side of what I can find to be true
in scripture and since you still refuse to show me where my
study is wrong, I have nothing more I can do but trust that the
Holy Spirit is teaching me since you will not.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Hope you have a lovely day tomorrow.
>
> Blade
>
> p..s say hi to your husband and I hope you bet him on that
prophecy He made. Oh, well we know one thing, He is not a
prophet or soothsayer! ;D
> [/shaddow]
>
>
>
> 1.
HTML http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9290-ketubah
>
> 2. Grudem, Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, 364.
>
> 3. C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, in The Complete C. S. Lewis
Signature Classics (New York: HarperOne, 2002), 33.
>
> 4. For more on this important topic, especially as it relates
to bibliology, see Carlos Bovell, Rehabilitating Inerrancy in a
Culture of Fear (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2012); idem, Inerrancy
and the Spiritual Formation of Younger Evangelicals (Eugene:
Wipf & Stock, 2015); James Barr, Beyond Fundamentalism
(Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1984); Christian Smith, The
Bible Made Impossible: Why Biblicism Is Not a Truly Evangelical
Reading of Scripture (Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2012); N. T.
Wright, Scripture and the Authority of God (New York: HarperOne,
2013); John Goldingay, Models for Scripture (Toronto: Clements,
2004); idem, Models for Interpretation of Scripture (Toronto:
Clements, 2004); Craig Allert, A High View of Scripture? (Grand
Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007); Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty
(New York: HarperCollins, 2016). For more on this topic in
general, see Greg Boyd, Benefit of the Doubt: Breaking the Idol
of Certainty (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2013).
>
> 5. Revisiting the Clarity of Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12
>
> 6. ibid
>
> 7. Christian Answers to Two Roman Catholic Questions on
“Catholic Answers”
>
--- End Quote ---
since you still did NOT do what I asked, I would say he did
pretty good at predicting what would happen.
#Post#: 5236--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 28, 2019, 1:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lori Bolinger link ---
>
> [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg5213#msg5213
date=1556346188]
> [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg5144#msg5144
date=1556023998]
>
> Blade....I'm looking forward to you showing me in the study I
did where I am missing not only the point of the passage but God
and His word by allowing scripture to interpret scripture for
me. Thank you in advance for the time to show me my error not
just tell me I am in error.
>
--- End Quote ---
this isn't the study I was talking about...but I assume you know
that....
--- Quote ---
>
>
> [shadow=blue,left] Your question was put in one of your post
which I have copied it here. You said: "So question I purposed
we think about....I have something to think on while I am
gone...if we understand I Tim the way these videos teach it,
what does that tell the men about their authority in the church?
More when I return...it's an interesting discussion.
>
> As the Bride of Christ, the church is to take on the role of
the wife in Ephesians 5...so when we are talking about men and
the church, the men must (if the traditional understanding is
correct) stop trying to run the church and usurp their own
authority over that of Christ and be silent..
>
> I had at one time brushed this off but after considerable
research, have come back to it.
>
> You are confusing the term "Bride of Christ" with that of a
woman spoken of in 1 Tm 2:11; 1 Cor 14:34; 1 Tim 2:12.
--- End Quote ---
why do you always assume I am confusing terms without
understanding of what I am saying? wouldn't it be more
profitable for you to ask for clarification if you don't
understand rather than assume I am confusing terms?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The 'Bride of Christ' is patterned after the Jewish Wedding
and as a prologue to the Rapture. The first step of the
"Betrothal" is for the prospective groom to negotiate a price
that must be paid for the Bride. We see this in the purchase of
both Leah and Rachel with 14 years of work for payment. We also
see this in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the purchase for
the Bride(His Church).
>
> Note: Once the purchase price was paid in full, the Groom and
the Bride were considered in a marriage covenant, thus the
Church (Body and Bride) of Jesus is a done deal.
>
> To be true to the pattern, the Groom would leave to His
father's house to prepare a place for the Bride which usually
took a year to complete. The Bride during this time would
prepare herself for marriage and gather her dowry. (1)
>
> Did not Jesus tell us that He is leaving to His father's house
to prepare a place for us? John 14:2
>
> When the Groom returns for His wife to be with a "Shout". (1
Th 4:16).
--- End Quote ---
yep....but not part of the discussion.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> **
> Are the passages (1 Tim 2:11-12) we speak of obscure or
straight forward.
>
> According to Daniel Doriani, they have been traditionally
interpreted in a straight forward manner. He says: "But
suddenly, with the advent of modern feminism, many scholars have
decided that these texts are obscure. Why has this happened? The
texts did not change.”(2)
--- End Quote ---
as I previously stated, we cannot allow modern sins to tell us
how to interpret a passage....you said you weren't doing that
then come here and confess to that very thing. In fact, the very
study I asked you to look at and show me where I have it wrong,
did NOT assume anything at all about the text or culture....all
it did was look at the text and ask what it really was telling
us as per scripture interpreting scripture. Previously you said
that for me to allow scripture to interpret scripture would draw
me away from God and His word but you show no reason for your
claims...how can I consider what you are saying as truth without
something to judge your claims by?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> As C. S. Lewis once remarked, “We all want progress, but if
you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and
walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns
back soonest is the most progressive.”(3)
>
> Perceived clarity and purported certainty simply are not
indicators of truth. (4)
--- End Quote ---
not sure what you are trying to say here.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> It appears that both complementarians and egalitarians hold to
the "obscure in light of clear" hermeneutical principle. "If
basic rules of hermeneutics can be so easily set aside when it
is theologically convenient, upon what grounds do such
concessions stop?"(5)
--- End Quote ---
so show me where I laid hermeneutics aside...
--- Quote ---
>
>
> “Gal 3:28 asserts that there is equality in the church, so
women should be able to do everything men can do” (a common
caricature propagated by critics of women pastors). Rather, the
argument is, “Gal 3:28 asserts that there is inherently no
sexism in the body of Christ, and forbidding women from doing
certain activities [e.g., pastoring] solely because of their sex
is sexist.”(6)
--- End Quote ---
again not sure how that applies to anything I said.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> **
> Where in the Bible is Scripture interpret Scripture:
>
> 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:”" If that is true,
then it follows that all Scripture has one divine author even if
it has many human authors" (7).
>
> Yet, in John 20:31, gives the Book of JOHN purpose as it does
all of scripture in the Bible. One could take all the prophecies
of Christ from Entry into Jerusalem to His resurrection as
scripture interpreting scripture.
>
> During Creation, God rested on the seventh day. There is much
about the amount of time each day contain yet in Exodus 20:8-11,
these scripture define the 7th day as a 24 hour day.
>
> Summary: I have looked at many different articles, concerning
the interpretation of 1 TIM 2:11-12 and have listed some of
them. For me, there is only one way to read these scripture as I
feel they are not obscure in any form nor do any other
scriptures force a different view on their meaning. They are
straight forward and along with 1 Cor 14:34-35, they imply the
commandments of Jesus exactly as they were written. If your
hermeneutics consider the Literal, Historical and Grammatical
text as the Word of GOD, as the Commands He left mankind to
follow, you will adhere to the traditional viewpoints of this
argument.
--- End Quote ---
Why? If the traditional viewpoints are wrong, why would I hold
to them simply because they are the traditionally help POV's?
As to scripture interpreting scripture...as I study scripture I
refuse to assume any understanding that is not supported
throughout the scriptures....but that is another discussion I
think
--- Quote ---
>
>
> On the other hand if you interpret the WORD of GOD using a
progressive agenda or world view, then these scriptures are
obscure and hard to read and with other scriptures pulled from
the Bible, allow the woman to do anything a man can do in the
church.
--- End Quote ---
well that would leave out what I am saying because as I have
told you, I am not progressive thinking in this area...as to
other scripture...if it isn't stated several places in
scripture, how can we know for sure we have the intended
meaning?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The scriptures in this case, do not mean what they say but
rather what one feels like they should say or whatever is
relative. In this case, we need to throw the Bible away for
every word in the Bible is then suspect to it correctness, etc.
--- End Quote ---
so you believe I should throw away the bible because I want it
to say the traditional understanding but can't find that backed
up in scripture? Isn't that putting self and tradition above
God and what He says?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Thank goodness, this is a personal decision to accept the
Bible (KJV) as it says in 1 TIM 2:12.."But I suffer not a woman
to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in
silence."
--- End Quote ---
well my personal decision is to accept everything God says as
He intends for it to be understood...I don't know any other way
to serve and Love Him.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> You in the end, regardless of what I say, the bereans say,
your husband says, will have to answer for your own decision on
this matter.
>
> It is very clear that the Bride of Christ does not have
anything to do with these passages but rather the coming Rapture
of the Bride (His spiritual Church) is contrasted to a Jewish
Wedding.
--- End Quote ---
You missed the point I was making...as Head of the man....the
man must be in submission to Christ...that is the point. In
scripture that picture is of "silence" ....so, let me see if I
can phrase this another way...if Christ is the head of the
Church and the head of the man...then men are no more qualified
to run the church than woman are....Christ alone is to run the
church....men need to sit at the feet of Jesus in "silence"
learning in all submission to Christ as He teaches and runs the
church.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Lori, I have spent many hours on this and have tried to give
you a sensible answer. I can do no more...It is time for you to
make that decision. I will pray that you make the right one
according to my interpretation.
--- End Quote ---
I will continue to take the side of what I can find to be true
in scripture and since you still refuse to show me where my
study is wrong, I have nothing more I can do but trust that the
Holy Spirit is teaching me since you will not.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Hope you have a lovely day tomorrow.
>
> Blade
>
> p..s say hi to your husband and I hope you bet him on that
prophecy He made. Oh, well we know one thing, He is not a
prophet or soothsayer! ;D
> [/shaddow]
>
>
>
> 1.
HTML http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9290-ketubah
>
> 2. Grudem, Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, 364.
>
> 3. C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, in The Complete C. S. Lewis
Signature Classics (New York: HarperOne, 2002), 33.
>
> 4. For more on this important topic, especially as it relates
to bibliology, see Carlos Bovell, Rehabilitating Inerrancy in a
Culture of Fear (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2012); idem, Inerrancy
and the Spiritual Formation of Younger Evangelicals (Eugene:
Wipf & Stock, 2015); James Barr, Beyond Fundamentalism
(Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1984); Christian Smith, The
Bible Made Impossible: Why Biblicism Is Not a Truly Evangelical
Reading of Scripture (Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2012); N. T.
Wright, Scripture and the Authority of God (New York: HarperOne,
2013); John Goldingay, Models for Scripture (Toronto: Clements,
2004); idem, Models for Interpretation of Scripture (Toronto:
Clements, 2004); Craig Allert, A High View of Scripture? (Grand
Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007); Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty
(New York: HarperCollins, 2016). For more on this topic in
general, see Greg Boyd, Benefit of the Doubt: Breaking the Idol
of Certainty (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2013).
>
> 5. Revisiting the Clarity of Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12
>
> 6. ibid
>
> 7. Christian Answers to Two Roman Catholic Questions on
“Catholic Answers”
>
--- End Quote ---
since you still did NOT do what I asked, I would say he did
pretty good at predicting what would happen.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]To be quite frank, Lori.. 1 Tim 2:12 relegates
Christian Women to a sphere of influence and action..their Home
and raises these Women of Christ from the position of
degradation and intellectual inferiority they have experienced
for the past 2000 years in the pagan systems of the East and the
West to a sphere within where Women should work exercising her
power and influence---in the HOME. A special place given to her
by GOD in His plan for both sexes while on this earth knowing
that She is a fellow-heir to the Kingdom of God where sexes WILL
no longer exist in the future. Until Mankind gets to this
future place, he and she are still required to follow the
teachings of Jesus Christ.
Yet, in her infinite wisdom, the Modern woman rejects this plan,
jumping right back into the very cesspool of inferiority she
experienced in earlier years.
Yes, we are both a part of the Church(Body and the Bride) of
Jesus Christ, yet this is a spiritual kingdom that we have only
partly been able to participate in. Until ones death releases
their spirit from this world and the bodies of those who have
died "in Christ" are resurrected and transfigured; the plan of
Jesus Christ which was placed into action by forty writers of
the Bible for both Man and Woman will remain in effect.
The pagan world may ignore the teaching of Paul by rejecting the
clear straightforward commands of our Lord,like 1 Tim 2:9-15 yet
in the end, those Christian Women who follow the traditional
teachings will reap the rewards in a future setting of the
Kingdom of God.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5249--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest24
Date: April 29, 2019, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bladerunner link ---
>
>
> [shadow=blue,left]To be quite frank, Lori.. 1 Tim 2:12
relegates Christian Women to a sphere of influence and
action..their Home and raises these Women of Christ from the
position of degradation and intellectual inferiority they have
experienced for the past 2000 years in the pagan systems of the
East and the West to a sphere within where Women should work
exercising her power and influence---in the HOME. A special
place given to her by GOD in His plan for both sexes while on
this earth knowing that She is a fellow-heir to the Kingdom of
God where sexes WILL no longer exist in the future. Until
Mankind gets to this future place, he and she are still required
to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
>
> Yet, in her infinite wisdom, the Modern woman rejects this
plan, jumping right back into the very cesspool of inferiority
she experienced in earlier years.
--- End Quote ---
what do you NOT understand about me wanting to understand I
Tim. in light of the traditional teaching because it is the
comfortable teaching to me but that I can't find that
understanding when I actually take time to study the passage in
light of scripture interpreting scripture?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Yes, we are both a part of the Church(Body and the Bride) of
Jesus Christ, yet this is a spiritual kingdom that we have only
partly been able to participate in. Until ones death releases
their spirit from this world and the bodies of those who have
died "in Christ" are resurrected and transfigured; the plan of
Jesus Christ which was placed into action by forty writers of
the Bible for both Man and Woman will remain in effect.
--- End Quote ---
see above...you keep asserting your understanding is the right
one but refuse to look at the study I did and show me where I
went wrong. How can I consider myself wrong when no one will
show me where the error is? In fact, in place of studying the
passage, you make false assumptions and assertions of what I am
saying and never once consider that what I am understanding from
my study of the text, is a much much harder thing to obey.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The pagan world may ignore the teaching of Paul by rejecting
the clear straightforward commands of our Lord,like 1 Tim 2:9-15
yet in the end, those Christian Women who follow the traditional
teachings will reap the rewards in a future setting of the
Kingdom of God.
>
> Blade[/shadow]
>
--- End Quote ---
So now you want to claim that following traditions of man are
more important than following the Commands of God? How
strange...I honestly believe we should challenge every tradition
of man against what scripture really does say if we want to
please God not man!!!!!!!!!!!!
#Post#: 5254--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 29, 2019, 7:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lori Bolinger link ---
>
> [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg5236#msg5236
date=1556431919]
>
> [shadow=blue,left]To be quite frank, Lori.. 1 Tim 2:12
relegates Christian Women to a sphere of influence and
action..their Home and raises these Women of Christ from the
position of degradation and intellectual inferiority they have
experienced for the past 2000 years in the pagan systems of the
East and the West to a sphere within where Women should work
exercising her power and influence---in the HOME. A special
place given to her by GOD in His plan for both sexes while on
this earth knowing that She is a fellow-heir to the Kingdom of
God where sexes WILL no longer exist in the future. Until
Mankind gets to this future place, he and she are still required
to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
>
> Yet, in her infinite wisdom, the Modern woman rejects this
plan, jumping right back into the very cesspool of inferiority
she experienced in earlier years.
--- End Quote ---
what do you NOT understand about me wanting to understand I
Tim. in light of the traditional teaching because it is the
comfortable teaching to me but that I can't find that
understanding when I actually take time to study the passage in
light of scripture interpreting scripture?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Yes, we are both a part of the Church(Body and the Bride) of
Jesus Christ, yet this is a spiritual kingdom that we have only
partly been able to participate in. Until ones death releases
their spirit from this world and the bodies of those who have
died "in Christ" are resurrected and transfigured; the plan of
Jesus Christ which was placed into action by forty writers of
the Bible for both Man and Woman will remain in effect.
--- End Quote ---
see above...you keep asserting your understanding is the right
one but refuse to look at the study I did and show me where I
went wrong. How can I consider myself wrong when no one will
show me where the error is? In fact, in place of studying the
passage, you make false assumptions and assertions of what I am
saying and never once consider that what I am understanding from
my study of the text, is a much much harder thing to obey.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The pagan world may ignore the teaching of Paul by rejecting
the clear straightforward commands of our Lord,like 1 Tim 2:9-15
yet in the end, those Christian Women who follow the traditional
teachings will reap the rewards in a future setting of the
Kingdom of God.
>
> Blade[/shadow]
>
--- End Quote ---
So now you want to claim that following traditions of man are
more important than following the Commands of God? How
strange...I honestly believe we should challenge every tradition
of man against what scripture really does say if we want to
please God not man!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Then read and follow the verses in 1 Tim
2:9-12 literally! While your at it, read verses 13 thru 15 and
take it up with the LORD on why He placed the sphere of
influence and power of the woman in the HOME and not the Church.
Rem this Lori, 'the SIN, Eve and Adam committed in Eden are the
same yet only one allowed herself to be deceived.'
You and other women carry the shame of 'disobeying GOD' by
being deluded by the serpent (Satan).
I and other men carry the shame of 'Disobeying GOD' and 'Man's
Downfall' for the Love of a woman!
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5286--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
DIR By: guest24
Date: April 30, 2019, 8:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bladerunner link ---
>
> [quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg5249#msg5249
date=1556554536]
> [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=379.msg5236#msg5236
date=1556431919]
>
> [shadow=blue,left]To be quite frank, Lori.. 1 Tim 2:12
relegates Christian Women to a sphere of influence and
action..their Home and raises these Women of Christ from the
position of degradation and intellectual inferiority they have
experienced for the past 2000 years in the pagan systems of the
East and the West to a sphere within where Women should work
exercising her power and influence---in the HOME. A special
place given to her by GOD in His plan for both sexes while on
this earth knowing that She is a fellow-heir to the Kingdom of
God where sexes WILL no longer exist in the future. Until
Mankind gets to this future place, he and she are still required
to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
>
> Yet, in her infinite wisdom, the Modern woman rejects this
plan, jumping right back into the very cesspool of inferiority
she experienced in earlier years.
--- End Quote ---
what do you NOT understand about me wanting to understand I
Tim. in light of the traditional teaching because it is the
comfortable teaching to me but that I can't find that
understanding when I actually take time to study the passage in
light of scripture interpreting scripture?
--- Quote ---
>
>
> Yes, we are both a part of the Church(Body and the Bride) of
Jesus Christ, yet this is a spiritual kingdom that we have only
partly been able to participate in. Until ones death releases
their spirit from this world and the bodies of those who have
died "in Christ" are resurrected and transfigured; the plan of
Jesus Christ which was placed into action by forty writers of
the Bible for both Man and Woman will remain in effect.
--- End Quote ---
see above...you keep asserting your understanding is the right
one but refuse to look at the study I did and show me where I
went wrong. How can I consider myself wrong when no one will
show me where the error is? In fact, in place of studying the
passage, you make false assumptions and assertions of what I am
saying and never once consider that what I am understanding from
my study of the text, is a much much harder thing to obey.
--- Quote ---
>
>
> The pagan world may ignore the teaching of Paul by rejecting
the clear straightforward commands of our Lord,like 1 Tim 2:9-15
yet in the end, those Christian Women who follow the traditional
teachings will reap the rewards in a future setting of the
Kingdom of God.
>
> Blade[/shadow]
>
--- End Quote ---
So now you want to claim that following traditions of man are
more important than following the Commands of God? How
strange...I honestly believe we should challenge every tradition
of man against what scripture really does say if we want to
please God not man!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Then read and follow the verses in 1 Tim
2:9-12 literally! While your at it, read verses 13 thru 15 and
take it up with the LORD on why He placed the sphere of
influence and power of the woman in the HOME and not the Church.
Rem this Lori, 'the SIN, Eve and Adam committed in Eden are the
same yet only one allowed herself to be deceived.'
You and other women carry the shame of 'disobeying GOD' by
being deluded by the serpent (Satan).
I and other men carry the shame of 'Disobeying GOD' and 'Man's
Downfall' for the Love of a woman!
Blade[/shadow]
[/quote]Nothing there addresses what I asked you to address.
Why so stubbornly refuse?
*****************************************************
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