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#Post#: 4504--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 19, 2019, 8:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I enjoyed the response...mostly we agree so don't take this as a
disagreement per say...
first I want to say that my husband is the one that first
challenged me to look at what the text actually does say not how
it is traditionally taught. IOWs my husband, a man, challenged
the traditional teaching, not me. When I talk about what it
means, most people (especially men) try to blame it on me being
a woman.
Now that being said, let me ask you this and see what answer you
can offer...I have repeatedly asked the question and no one has
been able or willing to give me an answer....in verse 1 Tim
2:12"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority
over the man, but to be in silence."
If a woman is NOT to usurp her authority over a man, where did
her authority that she is not to usurp come from? It could not
come from the men at the time because at the time woman had no
authority...so who gave her the authority she was NOT to usurp
over men....this is just one curious comment in the passage if
we are trying to understand what is really being said.
#Post#: 4511--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 19, 2019, 10:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4504#msg4504
date=1553003176]
I enjoyed the response...mostly we agree so don't take this as a
disagreement per say...
first I want to say that my husband is the one that first
challenged me to look at what the text actually does say not how
it is traditionally taught. IOWs my husband, a man, challenged
the traditional teaching, not me. When I talk about what it
means, most people (especially men) try to blame it on me being
a woman.[/Quote]
Sounds like a smart man, and He is lucky to have you as his
better half.
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4504#msg4504
date=1553003176]
Now that being said, let me ask you this and see what answer you
can offer...I have repeatedly asked the question and no one has
been able or willing to give me an answer....in verse 1 Tim
2:12"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority
over the man, but to be in silence."
If a woman is NOT to usurp her authority over a man, where did
her authority that she is not to usurp come from? It could not
come from the men at the time because at the time woman had no
authority...so who gave her the authority she was NOT to usurp
over men....this is just one curious comment in the passage if
we are trying to understand what is really being said.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori, Thank you for comments and question. In
1 Time 2:9-15..God is telling women how he wants them to be in
the public church. To answer your question, here is a link to an
old friend I have followed for a long time. His clarity of this
subject is why I am sending you to him. I do ask that both you
and your husband listen to the 1 TIM 2:9-15 explanation.
It sounds like you and your husband pull together like a good
team of mules! Not a better sight to be found!
I do hope this video (22min) helps. If it does not, let me know,
I will research your concerns a little further.
Thank you again and hope you and your husband have a great
evening.
Blade
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U94nTFxcd1g[/shadow]
#Post#: 4523--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 20, 2019, 9:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
well I see a few things wrong with the video....
One is his assertion that Gen. says that woman will want their
man's authority. Where does it say that? The desire is for
their husband...not their husbands authority or position.
Second, he leaves out all the "likewise" in the total
passage...likewise men....is a reference to the same commands.
That is where I will start with a rebuttal. I am NOT advocating
that he is totally wrong but that he missed some key points that
are vital to an accurate understanding of what Paul is teaching.
#Post#: 4538--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest8 Date: March 21, 2019, 8:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4523#msg4523
date=1553091663]
well I see a few things wrong with the video....
One is his assertion that Gen. says that woman will want their
man's authority. Where does it say that? The desire is for
their husband...not their husbands authority or position.
Second, he leaves out all the "likewise" in the total
passage...likewise men....is a reference to the same commands.
That is where I will start with a rebuttal. I am NOT advocating
that he is totally wrong but that he missed some key points that
are vital to an accurate understanding of what Paul is teaching.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in
your answer. You are speaking about two subjects (Husband and
Man)
**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee" Gen 3:16
God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her
husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow.
In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we
have come and how far down we have fallen.
We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is
no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and
woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can
hookup just about anywhere.
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence."
God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of
authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this
commandment specifically to the women. Here to we also see just
how far we have come and how far we have fallen.
You might ask why did he write the commandments?
Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing
that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this
command on their own.
Is it not also true, there is a slight chance (depending on the
command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed
even when it is given.
GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be
subjective to your husband.
He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of
Man in the Church.
*********
You then said:"likewise in the total passage"
"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more
specific?
The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight
forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a
choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically
or not.
Blade
[/shadow]
#Post#: 4540--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 22, 2019, 8:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Lori, I see a slight chip on your shoulder in your answer. You
are speaking about two subjects (Husband and Man) [/quote] the
chip you perceive is just that, your perception...I am only
interested in what scripture tells us...no chip [quote]
**** "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee" Gen 3:16[/quote] look at the context....16 Unto the
woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy
desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The context is clearly talking about the pain of child
birth....if you don't know by now that a woman may not want
children or the pain of childbirth but still desires a sexual
relationship with her husband I don't know what to tell you.
The text if read for comprehension clearly says NOTHING at all
about a woman desiring her husbands authority...that is not to
say that some don't, it just means that a rightly divided word
is important to our understanding of the text.
Which btw, your video did NOT answer the question about who gave
the woman the authority she was not to usurp over the man.
[quote]
God foreknew that women would not stay under the rules of Her
husband and Thus God made it a command for the women to follow.
In reality, the command of GOD serves to show just have far we
have come and how far down we have fallen.[/quote] please show
this in scripture....I'm seriously anxious to see this in
scripture without inflating into the Gen. text what is NOT
there. [quote]
We see this today in society all over the world. In fact, Man is
no longer needed for procreation. Marriages between Man and
woman are on the downfall.Why get married today when you can
hookup just about anywhere. [/quote] Just because a society is
out of control does NOT mean the same case is found in
scripture. [quote]
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence."[/quote] Now...let's look at
this....I suffer not a woman to teach and yet we tell woman that
they can teach children...in fact, the mother's job is to teach.
So obviously there is more to that phrase. "Nor to usurp
authority over the man" Now I asked you where she got the
authority she was NOT to usurp and you posted a video that did
NOT answer the question. Obviously she was given authority by
someone if her instruction was not to usurp that authority...we
know two things about that authority, 1. it did not come from
men who considered the woman a property and 2. the teaching is
not that she took authority that did not belong to her so it was
an acceptable authority if properly handled....but to be
silent...if you look at the word silent, it means a quiet
spirit...just as men are to have. So no, in a study of the
passage it does NOT mean for woman to be quiet, it means to live
in peace as you wait for God to open the doors for you to teach.
[quote]
God also foreknew that women would want and take positions of
authority He had given man in the Church. Therefore he give this
commandment specifically to the women. Here to we also see just
how far we have come and how far we have fallen.[/quote] look at
the teaching....again in context...verse 1 and 2 talk about how
a man is to live in quietness and peace...and then in verse 9
where we transition into woman what does it say? IN LIKE
MANNER...iows the teaching is pretty much the same which
confirms the usage of silent to mean quiet and peaceful spirit
not words out of the mouth. [quote]
You might ask why did he write the commandments?
Have you left a command of some sort, with your children knowing
that if you did not, chances were good they would not do this
command on their own.
Is it not also true, there is a slight chance (depending on the
command and the force behind it) that it would not be obeyed
even when it is given.
GOD does command and ask you as a woman to be godly and be
subjective to your husband.[/quote] now...let's talk about godly
and subjective a moment...first the complete teaching which is
usually ignored is that Christ is the head of the husband and
God is the head of Christ....Iow's the example of how a woman is
to behave in marriage is seen through how her husband
behaves...the husband is the example setter, the servant leader
like that of Christ. But we fail to teach this, wanting woman
to be subservient to men. If you start looking into the meaning
of the word translated as submissive what you see is that in non
military terms it means to work together, you know, going back
to Gen. where it teaches that the woman was a help mate for the
man...not a slave to or under the man but a helper to him.
[quote]
He does command you as a woman not to upsurp the authority of
Man in the Church. [/quote] Here is what people do NOT get when
they talk to me about this topic. I was raised to be a slave to
men...and I was comfortable with that. It's all I knew. My
husband told me to study it and learn so I did and found that
that is NOT what Paul is teaching here. How can I hold to what
I was taught and am comfortable with when scripture says that is
wrong? Now as to usurping authority over a man...heaven help me
if I ever do. In fact, I cannot count the number of times I
have bitten my tongue to avoid usurping authority over men, but
that does not mean what you are claiming nor what the video
claims...it means that God has given me a voice and where I need
to use it, I can only do so with a quiet and peaceful demeanor
like that of the men God has put in my life as an example of
servant leadership. Amen and amen. [quote]
*********
You then said:"likewise in the total passage"
"likewise" occurs 107 time in the KJV Bible. Can you be more
specific?[/quote] see above...[quote]
The WORD of GOD and His Commandment(s) for the woman is straight
forward. There is no way around it. You as a woman, have a
choice to obey His commands that were made for you specifically
or not. [/quote] I choose to obey and repent when I slip
up...but I obey the commands of God not the commands of men so
if you want me to believe you have knowledge about this topic,
prove it with scripture so that I can repent of being the woman
of God that He has instructed me to be throughout the totality
of scripture not just some proof texted passage.
#Post#: 4542--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 22, 2019, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
#Post#: 4545--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 22, 2019, 10:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4542#msg4542
date=1553264195]
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
[/quote]Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her
authority over the man....where does that authority come from?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence.
The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority
but the womans....over the man's
#Post#: 4547--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 22, 2019, 10:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4545#msg4545
date=1553269748]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4542#msg4542
date=1553264195]
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
[/quote]Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her
authority over the man....where does that authority come from?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence.
The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority
but the womans....over the man's
[/quote]The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be
referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the
a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what
that is?
#Post#: 4548--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: guest24 Date: March 22, 2019, 10:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4547#msg4547
date=1553269965]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4545#msg4545
date=1553269748]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4542#msg4542
date=1553264195]
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
[/quote]Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her
authority over the man....where does that authority come from?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence.
The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority
but the womans....over the man's
[/quote]The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be
referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the
a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what
that is?
[/quote]how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
anyone...?
#Post#: 4551--------------------------------------------------
Re: The dangers of woman keeping silent...
By: patrick jane Date: March 22, 2019, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4548#msg4548
date=1553270173]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4547#msg4547
date=1553269965]
[quote author=Lori Bolinger link=topic=379.msg4545#msg4545
date=1553269748]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=379.msg4542#msg4542
date=1553264195]
To usurp authority is to take authority, bypass authority or
disregard it. So the verse is talking about man's authority, not
a woman's, in my opinion.
[/quote]Yet the verse says that a woman is not to usurp her
authority over the man....where does that authority come from?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over
the man, but to be in silence.
The usurping of authority is over a man not the man's authority
but the womans....over the man's
[/quote]The word "her" isn't there so I take it to still be
referring to man's authority. I've never studied this but is the
a verse ore verses that say that women have authority and what
that is?
[/quote]how can a woman not usurp a man's authority over him?
She has no control over his authority to usurp it over
anyone...?
[/quote]I don't understand the question, how can a woman NOT
assume control over a man, is that what you're asking because
that's how it reads. So let's say that women have some
authority. Where does the Bible say that and explain what that
entails?
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