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DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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#Post#: 1691--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: October 19, 2018, 9:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Scripter link=topic=35.msg1667#msg1667
date=1539954492]
You're not reading things very well.
We find from the NT that it is the faith of Abraham that defines
things. Rom 9, Gal 3. It is not the race or DNA. So the
warning about blessing or cursing is not tied to the nation or
race, it is actually a statement about having faith in Christ,
like Abraham did, Gal 3.
There is therefore no place in the NT where the future holds
another episode for Israel or Judaism. Look at Rom 11. 'they
will be saved.' What did 'saved' mean all through Romans? It
means justification from past sin, and a change regarding
current sin. The 11:26 text also qualifies things further (the
olive tree analogy already did) by saying 'in this way' (the way
of only some of the nation being believers). Then the passage
quotes Isaiah about things already in existence. Paul meant
that they were going on then. The Redeemer had come from Zion.
Look at Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, Act 17, and find a
clear extended Judaic--Israel future. It's not there.
The blessing promised to Christ is fully completed in the
resurrection, because the resurrection seals that we (us) are
justified from our sins. That is exactly what Acts 13's sermon
was about and Rom 15 through its 4 OT quotes.
There is clearly 'replacement theology' in Heb 8, 9, which is
why it is so strange how the RT people of these past 2 decades
treat Hebrews as an apostolic document. They have many
contortions of it, instead of accepting its shedding of Judaism.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]Oooooookay,,,,,,,,Good Luck my friend
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 1697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Billy Evmur Date: October 20, 2018, 8:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=times new roman]It is a very strange way to read the bible
to accept Revs 21 in it's entirety as literal but to reject Revs
20 as literal but interpret it as symbolic.
The thing is a piece, a sequence of future events...in the
original there were not even chapters or verse. [/font]
#Post#: 1712--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: October 20, 2018, 10:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=35.msg1697#msg1697
date=1540040763]
[font=times new roman]It is a very strange way to read the bible
to accept Revs 21 in it's entirety as literal but to reject Revs
20 as literal but interpret it as symbolic.
The thing is a piece, a sequence of future events...in the
original there were not even chapters or verse. [/font]
[/quote]
I don't think we should go there ("The Thing is a piece....")
I read the WHOLE Book as literal, historical and grammatical.
Not symbolic like some need to do to support their worldview or
lifestyle.
Blade
#Post#: 1731--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Scripter Date: October 21, 2018, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The problem with the 1000 is not literal vs symbolic as much as
just lack of info. The NHNE is already an established
expectation from Isaiah. Do not make so many doctrines out of
something mentioned only a couple times in a very rarified type
of literature (1st century Jewish apocalyptic). The idea that
the Rev makes for some neat tidy sequence (like a manual on how
to assemble a hospital bed) is stupidity.
#Post#: 1738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Billy Evmur Date: October 21, 2018, 12:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=georgia]No you can't do that.
You can't say you believe Isaiah when he speaks about a new
heaven and a new earth but you won't accept what he says about
Israel being the highest mountain when the nations will flock to
Jerusalem to the house of the God of Jacob to learn His ways.
Nations will beat their swords into ploughshares and their
spears into pruning hooks and study war no more[/font]
#Post#: 1741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Scripter Date: October 21, 2018, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The nations are doing that in Christ. Prophecy is not about the
totality of everyone one earth doing it, but whether it is
completed in Christ. It is.
Do not read the OT on your own. Only read it the way the 40 day
seminar of Christ read it. which is found in NT quotes of the
OT.
That's why 'whatever was promised to the fathers is fulfilled
for us their children in that God raised Jesus from the dead'
(the proof of justification from sins).
#Post#: 1747--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Billy Evmur Date: October 21, 2018, 1:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=georgia]First of all the nations are not the church.
Secondly the nations are not disarming they are increasing their
weaponry and they do study war as their primary duty.
The church never did have swords to beat into ploughshares,
neither is the church the nations who will flock to Jerusalem to
the house of God to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.
Moreover Jesus told us that in this age nations will not make
peace but nation will rise up against nation and kingdom against
kingdom...there will be wars and plague and famine. Right up to
the moment when Christ returns.
So the prophecies of Isaiah can only come to pass in a new age.
Paul teaches that God's plan for the "fulness of times" is for
all things to be united in Christ, whether they be things in
heaven or things on earth.
For the reasons I gave above this can only refer to another
age.[/font]
#Post#: 1759--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Scripter Date: October 21, 2018, 8:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Paul says quite clear that all things are now unified in Christ
in this age and on into the next. And yes the NHNE comes after
judgement. But there are things about the new creation we can
enjoy now.
I don't recall saying the nations are the church and don't
believe that. Why is it so hard to understand that a person's
faith puts them in God's people and unbelief puts them out.
Race, DNA, heritage, class, gender have nothing to do with it.
That is how believers are now unified with all who have ever
believed.
#Post#: 1764--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: Billy Evmur Date: October 22, 2018, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Slower
You do not believe America and Russia are beating their nuclear
weapons into ploughshares or that they have ceased to study war
and Jesus said wars will continue and are a sign of His coming
again.
So this prophecy can only be fulfilled after His return.
Again I say to you first, we on our side accept that at the
present time Israel is out of the things of God, the scriptures
show that and we believe the scriptures but the very passages of
scripture that show this also clearly show that Israel is to be
restored. So YOU are the only one denying scripture.
Also you do not understand election.
God elected Israel, He didn't ask their permission and it was
conditional only upon faith, Jacob was elected before he
accepted or rejected Christ for that is the truest meaning of
before he did anything good or bad...the only thing dependent
upon whether or not they do actually enjoy their election
blessings is or was obedience to the law, but the law did not
negate the covenant.
And you are wrong, for the promise to Abraham was to his seed
which came from his loins as numerous as the stars of heaven,
the promise is the land and the ends of the earth. They are
physical promises.
With regard to election Paul reiterates the promise. "they are
enemies of the gospel for our sakes but BELOVED by God for the
sake of the fathers"
God says they are beloved, God says they are beloved...beware
that you despise who God loves.
You fail again and again to understand that the promise to
Israel is clear different to the promise made to the church or
to the Christ seed....not all Jews attain to the heavenly
promise but all Jews attain to the earthly promise
#Post#: 1767--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: October 22, 2018, 6:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=35.msg1764#msg1764
date=1540233657]
Slower
You do not believe America and Russia are beating their nuclear
weapons into ploughshares or that they have ceased to study war
and Jesus said wars will continue and are a sign of His coming
again.
So this prophecy can only be fulfilled after His return.
Again I say to you first, we on our side accept that at the
present time Israel is out of the things of God, the scriptures
show that and we believe the scriptures but the very passages of
scripture that show this also clearly show that Israel is to be
restored. So YOU are the only one denying scripture.
Also you do not understand election.
God elected Israel, He didn't ask their permission and it was
conditional only upon faith, Jacob was elected before he
accepted or rejected Christ for that is the truest meaning of
before he did anything good or bad...the only thing dependent
upon whether or not they do actually enjoy their election
blessings is or was obedience to the law, but the law did not
negate the covenant.
And you are wrong, for the promise to Abraham was to his seed
which came from his loins as numerous as the stars of heaven,
the promise is the land and the ends of the earth. They are
physical promises.
With regard to election Paul reiterates the promise. "they are
enemies of the gospel for our sakes but BELOVED by God for the
sake of the fathers"
God says they are beloved, God says they are beloved...beware
that you despise who God loves.
You fail again and again to understand that the promise to
Israel is clear different to the promise made to the church or
to the Christ seed....not all Jews attain to the heavenly
promise [color=orange]but all Jews attain to the earthly
promise[/color]
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]
Billy, All Jews will not attain the earthly promise of the
Kingdom. Only those that flee the AoD at the beginning of the
second Half of Daniel's 70th week. It actually tells one if you
want to read it.. REV 12, The Woman is the Remnant of Israel.
Those who are still alive and do not flee will be dead. 1/3of
their population- 6 million died in WWII, During the Great
Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble 2/3 of the Jewish population will
die.
Blade [/shadow]
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