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DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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#Post#: 321--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: August 12, 2018, 8:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg294#msg294
date=1534044250]
No. I was a Baptist before and I am still one today. About 20
years ago I was driving the car and my wife was reading the
Bible out loud. She read
Rev 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
a thousand years.
I asked her to read it again. The part about the first
resurrection caught my attention. When we got home I started
trying to understand it. I kept this all to myself at first,
because to be anything but pre-trib in my church is anathema.
Eventually I asked a few close friends to show me my error. I
wrote a small paper to help me organize my thoughts. I read many
of the dispensationalists to see if I could be wrong. I read
Things to Come by D. Pentecost, I read John MacArthur's book on
it. I have read C. Ryrie, C. Larkin, and somebody else. Then I
got on a forum to see what other thought about it. I learned
from them. I don't know if I am pre-wrath or post-tribulation
yet. My arguments may not be compelling to you, but I trust you
will see that I at least do have some Bible or my position. I'm
still saved. :)
[/quote]
Rev 20:5-6 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
v6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
a thousand years."
[color=yellow] "I ask that you read verse 4 and tell us what it
means to you as it is connected with verses 5 and 6. v4."And I
saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Let me touch on the 1st resurrection. Of, course Jesus Christ
was first fruits of the 1st resurrection. There are several
people of both races (Jewish and Gentiles) who are redeemed to
Heaven during the first part of Daniel's 70th week. These are
the "Body of Christ" represented by the Elders, The Martyred
that are under the altar awaiting God to avenge them. We have
the 144,000 who are very possibly left behind on purpose as they
have to be sealed before the 1st seal is opened. Then there are
the Multitudes that are a result of the 144,000 which happen to
have palms in their hands. This identifies them as Jewish. The
palms is a symbol of Israel on the present day coins. By the
way, the 144,000, the multitude and of course those that are
under the altar are redeemed. All martyrs, having their heads
removed before and during the first part of the tribulations.
Of course the two witness are removed from the earth. These are
those that are part of the first fruits (the 1st resurrection)
Knowing this (if you agree or not), what is 20:4-6 saying to
you!
BLade [/COLOR]
#Post#: 324--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: joechan82 Date: August 12, 2018, 10:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
#Post#: 325--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: joechan82 Date: August 12, 2018, 10:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg321#msg321
date=1534122108]
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg294#msg294
date=1534044250]
No. I was a Baptist before and I am still one today. About 20
years ago I was driving the car and my wife was reading the
Bible out loud. She read
Rev 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
a thousand years.
I asked her to read it again. The part about the first
resurrection caught my attention. When we got home I started
trying to understand it. I kept this all to myself at first,
because to be anything but pre-trib in my church is anathema.
Eventually I asked a few close friends to show me my error. I
wrote a small paper to help me organize my thoughts. I read many
of the dispensationalists to see if I could be wrong. I read
Things to Come by D. Pentecost, I read John MacArthur's book on
it. I have read C. Ryrie, C. Larkin, and somebody else. Then I
got on a forum to see what other thought about it. I learned
from them. I don't know if I am pre-wrath or post-tribulation
yet. My arguments may not be compelling to you, but I trust you
will see that I at least do have some Bible or my position. I'm
still saved. :)
[/quote]
Rev 20:5-6 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
v6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
a thousand years."
[color=yellow] "I ask that you read verse 4 and tell us what it
means to you as it is connected with verses 5 and 6. v4."And I
saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Let me touch on the 1st resurrection. Of, course Jesus Christ
was first fruits of the 1st resurrection. There are several
people of both races (Jewish and Gentiles) who are redeemed to
Heaven during the first part of Daniel's 70th week. These are
the "Body of Christ" represented by the Elders, The Martyred
that are under the altar awaiting God to avenge them. We have
the 144,000 who are very possibly left behind on purpose as they
have to be sealed before the 1st seal is opened. Then there are
the Multitudes that are a result of the 144,000 which happen to
have palms in their hands. This identifies them as Jewish. The
palms is a symbol of Israel on the present day coins. By the
way, the 144,000, the multitude and of course those that are
under the altar are redeemed. All martyrs, having their heads
removed before and during the first part of the tribulations.
Of course the two witness are removed from the earth. These are
those that are part of the first fruits (the 1st resurrection)
Knowing this (if you agree or not), what is 20:4-6 saying to
you!
BLade [/COLOR]
[/quote]
I got it. This is better. Sorry for the repetition, Blade.
#Post#: 330--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: patrick jane Date: August 13, 2018, 12:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post
you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the
quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum.
Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?
#Post#: 331--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 12:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]
[color=yellow]Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at
the different sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make
it easier
We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
The 1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
the 1st resurrection.
When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
Resurrection began.
Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
Jesus as He is as we will be.
Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
the Abomination of Desolation will be protected by GOD in the
Petra Mountains. They are of mortal bodies. They have the New
Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
to be any unbelievers here).
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=35.msg330#msg330
date=1534138432]
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post
you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the
quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum.
Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?
[/quote]
#Post#: 332--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 12:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]
Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different
sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier
We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
The 1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
the 1st resurrection.
When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
Resurrection began.
Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
Jesus as He is as we will be.
Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
the Abomination of Desolation will be protected by GOD in the
Petra Mountains. They are of mortal bodies. They have the New
Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
to be any unbelievers here).
Whether we redeemed, stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still
in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50
mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.
Blade
#Post#: 334--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 1:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]
The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders
represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.
All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their
heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the
144,000 .
The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week
but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the
millennium.
The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st
resurrection!
The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are
unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.
Blade
#Post#: 361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 6:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Sasha link=topic=35.msg306#msg306 date=1534089816]
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg209#msg209
date=1533865090]
HTML https://redeeminggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/theology-570x420.jpg
[img]
HTML http://www.desales.edu/images/default-source/headers_undergrad/theology.png?sfvrsn=0[/img]
These are the two main arguments of Escathology today.
The amellinnialism argument is usually associated with
replacement theology which states that Israel forfeited their
rights to the covenants given to them by GOD (Jehovah) in
ancient times. Their covenants were therefore transferred to the
Church (Body of Christ). Because of this, there will be no
Millennial as we are in it and Jesus is ruling spiritually
today.
Premillennialism argues that we are living during the Age of the
Church and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is future to us.
There are several disciplines associated with this argument.
They are Pre-Rapture, Mid Rapture or Post Rapture. Post-Rapture
had its day in the mid 1900's but disappeared when the things
did not get any better as was prophesied. It is coming back with
a vengeance.
Through literal, historical and grammatical interpretations of
the Bible (KJV) pre-mil, pre-trib is the only game in town.
Blade
[/quote]
One of my most influential verses in posture are the
following...
Acts 1:6-12
But zoom in on 9-11 then focus on Verse 12 and carry locational
Revelation from verse 12 into Zechariah 14:1-4. Now pair
Zechariah 14:4’s locational revelation and circumstances with
Acts 1:12, then consider the Apostles Question to Christ in Acts
1:6-8, followed by Chriat’s Answer.
If you take it literally and catch it, it should be a Holy moly
moment.
All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.
That’s my opinion, of course. I am aware it can be read many
different ways, but see if you can see it.
[/quote]
I just did as you suggested. Olivet is one of those special
places. Do you think the disciples went there to wait for
Christ's return in Acts 1:12. Or maybe to pray for divine
guidance before going into all the world? Maybe they went there
often to wait. I have friends who have gone to Israel and told
me that it was life changing to walk where He walked.
#Post#: 362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 6:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg332#msg332
date=1534139048]
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]
Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different
sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier
We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
The 1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
to the Lake of Fire. That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
the 1st resurrection.
When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
Resurrection began.
Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
Jesus as He is as we will be.
Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
the Abomination of Desolation will be protected by GOD in the
Petra Mountains. They are of mortal bodies. They have the New
Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
to be any unbelievers here).
Whether we redeemed, stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still
in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50
mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.
Blade
[/quote]
Yes, you are right. We seem to be in total agreement on those
points.
#Post#: 363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Amillennialism or Premillennialism
By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 7:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg334#msg334
date=1534140344]
[quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
date=1534129551]
Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
a better answer.
[/quote]
The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders
represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.
All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their
heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the
144,000 .
The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week
but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the
millennium.
The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st
resurrection!
The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are
unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.
Blade
[/quote]
Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church
will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th
trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does
wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church
and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened
yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the
exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is
for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because
dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say
that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are
wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church
started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly
ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and
Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in
operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the
Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them.
The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe
of Benjamin.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a
remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he
seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest
were blinded
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?
God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto
the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,
and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much
more their fulness?
You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of
the 1st resurrection!"
I completely agree with this, but it fits with pretribulation or
pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation,
where in the world to all the saved people come from that are
beheaded etc?
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