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   DIR Return to: Words of God - Christian Theology w/Bladerunner
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       #Post#: 321--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: guest8 Date: August 12, 2018, 8:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg294#msg294
       date=1534044250]
       No. I was a Baptist before and I am still one today. About 20
       years ago I was driving the car and my wife was reading the
       Bible out loud. She read
       Rev 20:5-6  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
       thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
       6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
       resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
       shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
       a thousand years.
       I asked her to read it again. The part about the first
       resurrection caught my attention. When we got home I started
       trying to understand it. I kept this all to myself at first,
       because to be anything but pre-trib in my church is anathema.
       Eventually I asked a few close friends to show me my error. I
       wrote a small paper to help me organize my thoughts. I read many
       of the dispensationalists to see if I could be wrong. I read
       Things to Come by D. Pentecost, I read John MacArthur's book on
       it. I have read C. Ryrie, C. Larkin, and somebody else. Then I
       got on a forum to see what other thought about it. I learned
       from them. I don't know if I am pre-wrath or post-tribulation
       yet. My arguments may not be compelling to you, but I trust you
       will see that I at least do have some Bible or my position. I'm
       still saved. :)
       [/quote]
       Rev 20:5-6 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
       thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
       v6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
       resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
       shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
       a thousand years."
       [color=yellow] "I ask that you read verse 4 and tell us what it
       means to you as it is connected with verses 5 and 6. v4."And I
       saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
       them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
       witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not
       worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
       his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
       and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
       Let me touch on the 1st resurrection. Of, course Jesus Christ
       was first fruits of the 1st resurrection. There are several
       people of both races (Jewish and Gentiles) who are redeemed to
       Heaven during the first part of Daniel's 70th week. These are
       the "Body of Christ" represented by the Elders, The Martyred
       that are under the altar awaiting God to avenge them. We have
       the 144,000 who are very possibly left behind on purpose as they
       have to be sealed before the 1st seal is opened.  Then there are
       the Multitudes that are a result of the 144,000 which happen to
       have palms in their hands. This identifies them as Jewish. The
       palms is a symbol of Israel on the present day coins. By the
       way, the 144,000, the multitude and of course those that are
       under the altar are redeemed. All martyrs, having their heads
       removed before and during the first part of the tribulations.
       Of course the two witness are removed from the earth. These are
       those that are part of the first fruits (the 1st resurrection)
       Knowing this (if you agree or not), what is 20:4-6 saying to
       you!
       BLade    [/COLOR]
       #Post#: 324--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: joechan82 Date: August 12, 2018, 10:05 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       #Post#: 325--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: joechan82 Date: August 12, 2018, 10:07 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg321#msg321
       date=1534122108]
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg294#msg294
       date=1534044250]
       No. I was a Baptist before and I am still one today. About 20
       years ago I was driving the car and my wife was reading the
       Bible out loud. She read
       Rev 20:5-6  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
       thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
       6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
       resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
       shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
       a thousand years.
       I asked her to read it again. The part about the first
       resurrection caught my attention. When we got home I started
       trying to understand it. I kept this all to myself at first,
       because to be anything but pre-trib in my church is anathema.
       Eventually I asked a few close friends to show me my error. I
       wrote a small paper to help me organize my thoughts. I read many
       of the dispensationalists to see if I could be wrong. I read
       Things to Come by D. Pentecost, I read John MacArthur's book on
       it. I have read C. Ryrie, C. Larkin, and somebody else. Then I
       got on a forum to see what other thought about it. I learned
       from them. I don't know if I am pre-wrath or post-tribulation
       yet. My arguments may not be compelling to you, but I trust you
       will see that I at least do have some Bible or my position. I'm
       still saved. :)
       [/quote]
       Rev 20:5-6 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
       thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
       v6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
       resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
       shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
       a thousand years."
       [color=yellow] "I ask that you read verse 4 and tell us what it
       means to you as it is connected with verses 5 and 6. v4."And I
       saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
       them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
       witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not
       worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
       his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
       and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
       Let me touch on the 1st resurrection. Of, course Jesus Christ
       was first fruits of the 1st resurrection. There are several
       people of both races (Jewish and Gentiles) who are redeemed to
       Heaven during the first part of Daniel's 70th week. These are
       the "Body of Christ" represented by the Elders, The Martyred
       that are under the altar awaiting God to avenge them. We have
       the 144,000 who are very possibly left behind on purpose as they
       have to be sealed before the 1st seal is opened.  Then there are
       the Multitudes that are a result of the 144,000 which happen to
       have palms in their hands. This identifies them as Jewish. The
       palms is a symbol of Israel on the present day coins. By the
       way, the 144,000, the multitude and of course those that are
       under the altar are redeemed. All martyrs, having their heads
       removed before and during the first part of the tribulations.
       Of course the two witness are removed from the earth. These are
       those that are part of the first fruits (the 1st resurrection)
       Knowing this (if you agree or not), what is 20:4-6 saying to
       you!
       BLade    [/COLOR]
       [/quote]
       I got it. This is better. Sorry for the repetition, Blade.
       #Post#: 330--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: patrick jane Date: August 13, 2018, 12:33 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post
       you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the
       quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum.
       Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?
       #Post#: 331--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 12:42 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]
       [color=yellow]Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at
       the different sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make
       it easier
       We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
       The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
       Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
       the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
       The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
       to the Lake of Fire.  That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
       the 1st resurrection.
       When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
       captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
       Resurrection began.
       Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
       judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
       Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
       tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
       altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
       1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
       All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
       Jesus as He is as we will be.
       Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
       taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
       millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
       land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
       yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
       The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
       the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the
       Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New
       Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
       will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
       to be any unbelievers here).
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=35.msg330#msg330
       date=1534138432]
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]To quote a post it's on TOP at the top right of the post
       you're quoting. Every other forum I've ever seen hast the
       quote/reply button at the bottom right, except this forum.
       Confusing but I'm used to it. Is that what you're talking about?
       [/quote]
       
       #Post#: 332--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 12:44 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]
       Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different
       sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier
       We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
       The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
       Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
       the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
       The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
       to the Lake of Fire.  That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
       the 1st resurrection.
       When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
       captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
       Resurrection began.
       Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
       judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
       Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
       tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
       altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
       1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
       All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
       Jesus as He is as we will be.
       Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
       taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
       millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
       land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
       yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
       The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
       the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the
       Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New
       Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
       will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
       to be any unbelievers here).
       Whether we redeemed,  stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still
       in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50
       mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.
       Blade
       #Post#: 334--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: guest8 Date: August 13, 2018, 1:05 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]
       The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders
       represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.
       All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their
       heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the
       144,000 .
       The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week
       but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the
       millennium.
       The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st
       resurrection!
       The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are
       unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.
       Blade
       #Post#: 361--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 6:55 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Sasha link=topic=35.msg306#msg306 date=1534089816]
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg209#msg209
       date=1533865090]
  HTML https://redeeminggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/theology-570x420.jpg
       [img]
  HTML http://www.desales.edu/images/default-source/headers_undergrad/theology.png?sfvrsn=0[/img]
       These are the two main arguments of Escathology today.
       The amellinnialism argument is usually associated with
       replacement theology which states that Israel forfeited their
       rights to the covenants given to them by GOD (Jehovah) in
       ancient times. Their covenants were therefore transferred to the
       Church (Body of Christ). Because of this, there will be no
       Millennial as we are in it and Jesus is ruling spiritually
       today.
       Premillennialism argues that we are living during the Age of the
       Church and the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is future to us.
       There are several disciplines associated with this argument.
       They are Pre-Rapture, Mid Rapture or Post Rapture.  Post-Rapture
       had its day in the mid 1900's but disappeared when the things
       did not get any better as was prophesied. It is coming back with
       a vengeance.
       Through literal, historical and grammatical interpretations of
       the Bible (KJV) pre-mil, pre-trib is the only game in town.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       One of my most influential verses in posture are the
       following...
       Acts 1:6-12
       But zoom in on 9-11 then focus on Verse 12 and carry locational
       Revelation from verse 12 into Zechariah 14:1-4. Now pair
       Zechariah 14:4’s locational revelation and circumstances with
       Acts 1:12, then consider the Apostles Question to Christ in Acts
       1:6-8, followed by Chriat’s Answer.
       If you take it literally and catch it, it should be a Holy moly
       moment.
       All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.
       That’s my opinion, of course.  I am aware it can be read many
       different ways, but see if you can see it.
       [/quote]
       I just did as you suggested. Olivet is one of those special
       places. Do you think the disciples went there to wait for
       Christ's return in Acts 1:12. Or maybe to pray for divine
       guidance before going into all the world? Maybe they went there
       often to wait. I have friends who have gone to Israel and told
       me that it was life changing to walk where He walked.
       #Post#: 362--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 6:59 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg332#msg332
       date=1534139048]
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]
       Sorry Joe, I cannot keep up with what I said at the different
       sites, I know I don't change. let me try to make it easier
       We agree there will be 2 resurrections!
       The  1st Resurrection is for all who believed in GOD and Jesus
       Christ (OT & NT) and those who are still alive at the time of
       the pre-trib Harpazo.(Body of Christ)
       The 2nd resurrection is for those that are damned (unbelievers)
       to the Lake of Fire.  That is it in a nut shell, So 20:5 ended
       the 1st resurrection.
       When Jesus returned from Abraham's Bosom and brought those OT
       captives souls back with him (Ephesians 4:8-9), the 1st
       Resurrection began.
       Rev 20:4 Tells us the Elders sit on thrones (Body of Christ) to
       judge. (1 Corinthians 6:3),
       Those that died in the name of Jesus Christ during the
       tribulations (Tribulation saints) (i.e. the martyrs under the
       altar). The 144,000 and those they evangelized will be in the
       1st resurrection plus the OT saints are of the 1st resurrection.
       All that above will have redeemed Bodies that allow us to see
       Jesus as He is as we will be.
       Now, there are those that live through the tribulations without
       taking the mark of the beast. They will LIVE through the
       millennium, in allotted land and be required to visit the holy
       land once per year. They will have mortal bodies and given 100
       yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus.
       The Jewish People (Remnant) who fled Jerusalem at the time of
       the Abomination of Desolation will  be  protected by GOD in the
       Petra Mountains.  They are of mortal bodies.  They have the New
       Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) placed into them. Their Children
       will have 100 yrs to decide if they believe in Jesus (unlikely
       to be any unbelievers here).
       Whether we redeemed,  stay at the New Jerusalem (which is still
       in the third Heaven during the Millennium)or at the 5x50x50x50
       mile temple grounds is unknown. I really won't mind either way.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Yes, you are right. We seem to be in total agreement on those
       points.
       #Post#: 363--------------------------------------------------
       Re:  Amillennialism or Premillennialism
       By: joechan82 Date: August 13, 2018, 7:27 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Bladerunner link=topic=35.msg334#msg334
       date=1534140344]
       [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=35.msg324#msg324
       date=1534129551]
       Are you the guy on TF who said the resurrection is actually a
       collection of resurrections? That might explain a lot. I might
       actually come to believe that. I wish I knew how to make these
       threads include the post I am replying to. I have to keep
       switching back and forth to see all you said. It looks to me
       from reading Rev 20:4 that all those groups of people went
       through Daniel's 70th week. Was that your point? I'll try to
       figure out how to quote your post in my reply so I can give you
       a better answer.
       [/quote]
       The Church does not go through Daniel's 70th week. The 24 Elders
       represent them in Chapter 4 and throughout the 70th week.
       All the others that were alive at its beginning lost their
       heads if they believed in Jesus Christ. This includes the
       144,000 .
       The OT saints were dead thus not alive during daniel's 70th week
       but were resurrected after the the 70th week and before the
       millennium.
       The beginning of the Millennium was the end of the 1st
       resurrection!
       The 2nd resurrection is nothing more that for those that are
       unbelievers and must face the White Throne Judgement.
       Blade
       [/quote]
       Here is the point at which we diverge. I say that the church
       will go through Daniel's 70th week until wrath begins at the 7th
       trumpet. Now we will begin to argue things such as when does
       wrath begin, and why Daniel's 70th week includes both the church
       and national Israel. I can see this discussion as if it happened
       yesterday. I compare Matt 24:29-31 to 1Thess 4:13-8 and see the
       exact same event in both passages. Some may say, wait, one is
       for the Jews and the other is for the Church, because
       dispensationalism says it must be two different events. I say
       that dispensationalism is wrong on this point. I think they are
       wrong on the definition of the church too. I think the church
       started with Christ and the disciples during His earthly
       ministry, not at Pentecoste. The church (both the Jewish and
       Gentile elements) were grafted into the plan already in
       operation. The Jewish believing remnant was joined by the
       Samaratins, then the Gentiles. We are not separate from them.
       The nation of Israel left God, He did not leave them.
       Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
       For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe
       of Benjamin.
       Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a
       remnant according to the election of grace.
       Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he
       seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest
       were blinded
       Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?
       God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto
       the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
       Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,
       and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much
       more their fulness?
       You said this, "The beginning of the Millennium was the end of
       the 1st resurrection!"
       I completely agree with this, but it fits with pretribulation or
       pre-wrath. If the church is gone before the great tribulation,
       where in the world to all the saved people come from that are
       beheaded etc?
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