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#Post#: 2488--------------------------------------------------
Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: November 24, 2018, 12:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
This is in no way slanderous to Catholics, I love Catholics and
I admire the tradition they have kept for thousands of years. I
do, however, disagree with their theological ideals.
Fr. Mike is an amazing man whom I respect GREATLY! So don't for
one minute think that I am talking down to or disrespecting. I
simply want to challenge some of the points that he brought up
in his video.
I am a huge fan of Fr. Mike, I'm a subscriber and I thoroughly
enjoy his videos, we simply disagree on many theological
concepts and historical pieces of the church.
I have been given written permission by Ascension Presents to
use these clips.
Connect with me on Social Media!
Instagram.com/TattooedTheist
Facebook.com/TattooedTheist
Twitter.com/TattooedTheist
17 minutes
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh97DZ1GhX4
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#Post#: 7155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: July 21, 2019, 6:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
good video
#Post#: 8609--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: epostle Date: November 5, 2019, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Fr. Mike is NOT saying the Church has the authority to "change"
doctrine. He said the Church has the authority to *establish*
doctrine. Big difference. A doctrine that can change is not a
doctrine. Doctrines develop. The canon of Scripture is an
example of development, and so is the doctrine of the Trinity.
Doctrines are *established* by the words AND writings of Jesus
and the Apostles, they are not pulled out of funny looking hats.
There is overwhelming historical evidence that Peter was in
Rome. Just because biblical evidence is weak does not mean
historical evidence is non-existent and irrelevant. Besides,
geography does not determine the doctrine of the papacy (which
developed along with the canon). It is IMPOSSIBLE to write early
church history after 95 AD. based on the Bible alone, but you do
it anyway.
Did Peter, James and John forget to bring a copy of the NT? They
had a heated debate because the Judaizing Christians were
freaking out, insisting on circumcision for Gentiles. The
controversy was dividing the church, that's why they convened
the Council in the first place. You left that out. Scripture
clearly states that A DECISION WAS REACHED BY THE APOSTLES AND
ELDERS, you are saying in effect no church was needed to rule
out circumcision.
The authoritive proclamations on the development of the Trinity
in 4 successive councils were in response to challenging
heresies. You left that out too. (Arius, Nestorius, Apollinaris
and so on) The Trinity can be proven by scripture alone, but
that didn't stop the heretics who were using "scripture alone"
to back up their heresies. "the sole rule of faith" is no excuse
to disregard the authority of the Church in these post-bible
*tricky* situations. The Church proved that the Trinity was
always believed, because the tradition of the heretics was
non-existent.
The Church PRESERVED and is the CUSTODIAN of the infallible
Bible. You erroneously assert, repeatedly, that the /church
changed doctrines, which is impossible. You keep asserting that
infallibility means authority over everything. Nonsense. That is
not what infallibility means. It doesn't come from popes or
councils, it is a gift from God that prevents teaching error on
matters of faith and morals. Period. The Pope, alone, as a man,
IS NOT INFALLIBLE!!! The Council of Jerusalem is infallible
because the Holy Spirit was there. That's what makes it
infallible, guiding Peter, James, John and Paul.
If sins of bad leaders disproves Catholicism (which has NOTHING
to do with infallibility that you ranted on about), ***then the
sins of the reformers disproves Protestantism***. It's a stupid
double non-sequitur.
***
HTML https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/09/protestant-inquisitions-reformation-intolerance-persecution.html
The Church has never claimed that one person has the sole
authority to interpret scripture. The Church claims to have
authority over difficult passages THAT ONLY APPLIES TO
CATHOLICS. If a Calvinist professor started teaching Arminian
theology, he would soon be out of a job. There are only 7
verses in the Bible that the Church interprets to say what it
does not mean! Your "issues" are based on false premises. To
interpret every line of scripture would freeze-dry a living
Word.
It's not enough to say this verse or that verse proves sola
scriptura. My challenge to you is to prove that Tradition
(properly defined, which it never is) and the Magisterium
(properly defined, which it never is) *by scripture alone*, are
not necessary, or won't be necessary at some future point.
Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium is the BIBLICAL rule
of faith, all working in harmony, and one is not over the other.
May God bless you in your studies.
#Post#: 15624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: July 27, 2020, 10:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I was Catholic
#Post#: 16884--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: August 30, 2020, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=257.msg15624#msg15624
date=1595863326]
I was Catholic
[/quote]not now
#Post#: 16902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: guest8 Date: August 30, 2020, 10:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=257.msg16884#msg16884
date=1598824585]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=257.msg15624#msg15624
date=1595863326]
I was Catholic
[/quote]not now
[/quote]
good for you.
Blade
#Post#: 17506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: September 12, 2020, 10:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[img]
HTML https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/119237.png?w=700[/img]
HTML https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2020/september/latest-evangelicals-becoming-catholics-mark-galli.html
Evangelicals Becoming Catholics: Former CT Editor Mark Galli
Why do evangelicals convert to Catholicism and how should we
respond?
This Sunday, September 13, a man named Mark will become
confirmed as a Catholic. Why is this significant?
Mark Galli, who will be confirmed under the name of St. Francis,
is a former Presbyterian pastor and editor-in-chief for
Christianity Today. And, as RNS noted, for a few days last
December he was perhaps the best-known evangelical in the nation
for his editorial calling for the impeachment and removal of
Donald Trump from the presidency.
Galli, however, says the timing of his conversion to Catholicism
two months before the next election is for personal reasons.
After 20 years in the Anglican Church, he believes moving to
Catholicism is not a rejection of evangelicalism but taking his
"Anglicanism deeper and thicker."
His journey took him from Presbyterianism to becoming an
Episcopalian, then Anglican, with a brief time attending the
Orthodox Church. This runs counter to trends in the U.S., as
currently for every one convert to Catholicism, six leave the
tradition. But notable Protestants, from Elizabeth Ann Seton and
John Henry Newman, to G.K. Chesterton, Francis Beckwith, and
Tony Blair. The RNS article observed:
Some converts are drawn to the beauty of Catholic ritual. Others
to the church’s rich intellectual tradition or the centrality of
the Eucharist, the bread and wine used for Communion, which
Catholics believe becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
For Galli that was part of it, but his fatigue with
evangelicalism contributed as well. "I want to submit myself to
something bigger than myself," He said, adding:
One thing I like about both Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that
you have to do these things, whether you like it or not, whether
you’re in the mood or not, sometimes whether you believe or not.
You just have to plow ahead. I want that.
Why do Evangelicals Become Catholics?
A Catholic Perspective
Beauty: In the National Catholic Register an article on the book
Evangelical Exodus: Evangelical Seminarians and Their Pathsto
Rome noted beauty as one reason. No less than ten Southern
Evangelical Seminary students contributed to this book, as did
Francis Beckwith of Baylor.
Editor (and convert) Douglas Beaumont observed:
​In Protestantism, there's a tendency to dismiss any
reason other ​​than the intellectual. But as human
beings, we're both physical and spiritual ​creatures. In
the Catholic Church, he found, intellect and reason are
respected; ​but the Catholic Church is also more beautiful
and more historical. There is an ​attractive package which
draws the spirit, combining art and music and beauty, a
​long history, and tradition, with solid intellectual
arguments.
Spirituality: Scott Hahn, another former evangelical now
Catholic, in his chapter "Come to the Father: The Fact at the
Foundation of Catholic Spirituality," in Four Views on Christian
Spirituality, notes the great diversity of expressions of
spirituality from the
. . . silence of the Trappists and the Pentecostal praise of the
Charismatic Renewal; the rarified intellectual life of the
Dominicans and the profound feeling of the Franciscans; the
wealth of the knights of Malta and the elected poverty of the
Missionaries of Charity; the strict enclosure of the Carthusians
and the world-loving secularity of the Opus Dei; the bright
colors of Central American devotional art and the austere blocks
of the German cathedrals; the warrior spirit of the Templars and
the serene pax of the Benedictines; Ignatian detachment and
Marian warmth.
He argues this shows the richness of Catholic spirituality which
"presents a forest indiscernible because of the variety and
number – and even the age – of its trees.”
From First Things​
First Things often offers an intellectually respectable,
nonpartisan examination of religious and other matters. In an
article entitled “Why Do Evangelicals Convert to Catholicism?”
Adam Omelianchuk offers reasons evangelicals convert to
Catholicism:
Authenticity and beauty in worship. Though many Catholics left
for more vibrant evangelical services, many miss the sense of
awe and reverence seen in the liturgy of the church, as it
“represented something sacred and beautiful.”
Intellectualism. “Catholicism has a rich intellectual pedigree
that remains competitive in today’s marketplace of ideas that
evangelicals hardly match. Catholics have traditionally been
leaders in such high professions like law, medicine, and
education, and Catholic universities often compete with and far
surpass those funded by the secular public. For a Christian
intellectual, Catholicism can be an antidote to evangelicalism’s
rampant anti-intellectualism.”
Church Polity. The various approaches of elder-led vs.
elder-ruled, the role of women, and other areas of dispute among
evangelicals makes the hierarchical approach of Catholicism
appealing for some when compared to "competing with one another
by the means of building a ministry around a cult of
personality, which so often drives evangelical ecclesiology.”
An Evangelical Assessment: Scott McKnight
McKnight examined this issue in an article for JETS (Journal of
the Evangelical Theological Society) entitled (ironically, for
this moment) "From Wheaton to Rome: Why Evangelicals Become
Roman Catholic."
He quotes Chesterton who says he took the path of Rome "to get
rid of my sins." McKnight argues Scott Hahn noted above and
musician (from the Jesus People Movement days) John Michael
Talbot––who moved from a Pentecostal-Fundamentalist faith to
becoming a Franciscan––offered two notable examples to
understand the transition.
McKnight offered four specific areas to help understand the move
to Catholicism.
These transitions are institutional in nature. It is not a
conversion to Christ but a perceived conversion to the fullness
of the Christian faith.
The context of the converts. McKnight notes how difficult it is
to convert from evangelicalism to Catholicism and that it is not
done lightly or without opposition from family and friends.
A "crisis" through various factors. An example is the desire for
transcendence, manifested in four key areas: certainty, history,
unity, and authority. There is a weighty continuity in the
history of Rome with the early Fathers, the Medieval
theologians, and more. The splintering of evangelicalism causes
some to admire both the centralized authority and the confession
of the church as "one" in Catholicism.
Quest, encounter, and commitment. “The quest of an ERC
[Evangelical to Roman Catholic) moves most often along the path
of encountering transcendence, though intellectual satisfaction
is the primary feature of that quest."
McKnight concludes with two contrasting points. First, there
will continue to be evangelicals concerting to Catholicism
"until the evangelical churches can get a firmer grip on
authority, unity, history, liturgy, and a reasonable form of
certainty on interpretation."
Second, "until the Roman Catholic Church learns to focus on
gospel preaching of personal salvation, on the importance of
personal piety for all Christians—and abandons its historical
two-level ethic—and personal study, and on the Bible itself,
there will be many who will leave Catholicism to join in the
ranks of evangelicalism."
So what are my thoughts?
Well, a few parts of my own journey. First, I was raised
nominally Roman Catholic in a New York City, Irish Catholic
household. We were not active, though it did leave an impact on
my life. Interestingly, my mother came to faith through the
Catholic Charismatic Cursillo movement.
While doing my M.Div., I attended a Catholic seminary (and later
transferred the credits to a Southern Baptist seminary). While I
was there, I took preaching (which, was not particularly helpful
as you might imagine) and Reformation History. It turns out they
have an entirely different view of that Reformation thing!
Mark is a friend—the Red Apple behind Christianity Today is our
lunch spot. We agreed on much, though we differed at
times—always amicably. (I did ask him about the photographer at
his new Catholic church and he pointed out that was from RNS.) I
also asked how long this was in process—was it while you were
writing your closing thoughts to evangelicals? (He told me he
explains more in his forthcoming book.)
However, I don’t blame converts. I do try to understand them.
And, like Mark felt it necessary to put Christianity Today on
record about sexuality after a former editor changed his view, I
thought it might be helpful to publish in the same magazine
about his conversion.
You see, I’ve known converts to Catholicism, and have talked
through the process with them. I get part of the reasons.
Actually, my own family converted to Eastern Orthodoxy (with my
stepfather becoming a priest). (I explain that here, in a long
article about Hank Hanegraaff’s conversion to Orthodoxy.)
Yet, I am (and remain) a conservative, evangelical protestant.
Furthermore, in that subcategory, I am a Baptist. And, for good
or for ill, my theological convictions of thirty years ago
remain pretty consistent. I lean reformed, believe in all the
spiritual gifts, and think the gospel works by grace alone, by
faith alone.
Yet, there are some things that a moment like this might cause
some self-reflection.
Here’s where it brings me. The strengths of evangelicalism also
reveal our weaknesses.
First, we are strong on the act of conversion, but not so much
on ongoing sanctification subsequent to the new birth. We need a
much more robust view of church, community, and the fullness of
Christian life.
Second, most, not all, evangelicals shy away from overly
ritualistic or liturgical worship, yet in so doing we turn our
services into performances and our time of singing into the
latest play list of what’s new. We have lost a sense of history
and heritage and have replaced the depth and breadth of historic
Christianity with the surface effects of pop culture.
Third, we emphasize practical Christianity (to the place of
sheer pragmatism sometimes) and too often ignore contemplation.
Yet most of us hunger for that which is beyond us, something
that cannot be captured in a four-point self-help sermon or
answered with a sound bite. “I came to church to meet with an
awesome God,” one unchurched person said at a megachurch she
visited, “But all I got was a Tony Robbins event.”
Fourth, we preach and teach the imminence of God, who can be our
friend and, in application, our life coach, who is interested in
the now of life. But we ignore the vast transcendence of God and
his work in creation and in history. We champion busyness and
workaholism and ignore Sabbath rest and seasons of prayer,
because it would hinder our activism.
Fifth, our activism has led us, fairly or not, to be categorized
as Donald Trump foot soldiers, which unquestionably has
contributed to the rise of Ex-vangelicals. Perhaps some of these
will move to Catholicism, Orthodox, or Anglican traditions.
At the end of the day, I’m not just a Protestant, I’m a somewhat
non-ecumenical one. I’ve been told that I’ve spoken at more
evangelical denominational meetings than anyone living. (I don’t
keep track, so I don’t know, but I do value evangelical
collaboration for mission and evangelism—because of our common
view of the gospel.)
But, I’m not a signer or Evangelicals and Catholics Together and
I don’t generally engage in broader ecumenical conversations.
Simply put, my focus is generally on evangelism and mission/s,
and evangelicals and Roman Catholics generally do not align in
such endeavors. (If you’d be interested in a dialogue between
Catholics, Orthodox, mainline, and evangelical missiologists,
please see the book we all contributed to, The Mission of the
Church: Five Views in Conversation.)
The Protestant view of the gospel—and the five solas of the
reformation—are (in my view) the best representation and
understanding of the gospel. I think it was a restoration of
biblical (and in some ways Augustinian) understanding of the
gospel. Roman Catholics generally have a different view. They
believe, for example, that salvation is by grace, but not grace
alone, at least not in the same way Protestants do.
That gives us a different understand about the gospel—and, as
such, I’m disappointed to see Mark leave that understanding of
the gospel for another.
He’s my friend (and he has read and given feedback on this
article). I imagine we will talk over this at the Red Apple
Pancake House.
But I remain a Protestant because of what I see in the Bible,
the conversion Jesus worked in my heart by His grace, and the
imperfect community of evangelicals that together we once
served.
Ed Stetzer is executive director of the Wheaton College Billy
Graham Center, serves as a dean at Wheaton College, and
publishes church leadership resources through Mission Group. The
Exchange Team contributed to this article.
#Post#: 19197--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: patrick jane Date: October 21, 2020, 10:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Interesting
#Post#: 19217--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Be Catholic and not Just Christian | RESPONSE VIDEO
By: guest8 Date: October 21, 2020, 9:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=257.msg17506#msg17506
date=1599966525]
[img]
HTML https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/119237.png?w=700[/img]
HTML https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2020/september/latest-evangelicals-becoming-catholics-mark-galli.html
Evangelicals Becoming Catholics: Former CT Editor Mark Galli
Why do evangelicals convert to Catholicism and how should we
respond?
This Sunday, September 13, a man named Mark will become
confirmed as a Catholic. Why is this significant?
Mark Galli, who will be confirmed under the name of St. Francis,
is a former Presbyterian pastor and editor-in-chief for
Christianity Today. And, as RNS noted, for a few days last
December he was perhaps the best-known evangelical in the nation
for his editorial calling for the impeachment and removal of
Donald Trump from the presidency.
Galli, however, says the timing of his conversion to Catholicism
two months before the next election is for personal reasons.
After 20 years in the Anglican Church, he believes moving to
Catholicism is not a rejection of evangelicalism but taking his
"Anglicanism deeper and thicker."
His journey took him from Presbyterianism to becoming an
Episcopalian, then Anglican, with a brief time attending the
Orthodox Church. This runs counter to trends in the U.S., as
currently for every one convert to Catholicism, six leave the
tradition. But notable Protestants, from Elizabeth Ann Seton and
John Henry Newman, to G.K. Chesterton, Francis Beckwith, and
Tony Blair. The RNS article observed:
Some converts are drawn to the beauty of Catholic ritual. Others
to the church’s rich intellectual tradition or the centrality of
the Eucharist, the bread and wine used for Communion, which
Catholics believe becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
For Galli that was part of it, but his fatigue with
evangelicalism contributed as well. "I want to submit myself to
something bigger than myself," He said, adding:
One thing I like about both Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that
you have to do these things, whether you like it or not, whether
you’re in the mood or not, sometimes whether you believe or not.
You just have to plow ahead. I want that.
Why do Evangelicals Become Catholics?
A Catholic Perspective
Beauty: In the National Catholic Register an article on the book
Evangelical Exodus: Evangelical Seminarians and Their Pathsto
Rome noted beauty as one reason. No less than ten Southern
Evangelical Seminary students contributed to this book, as did
Francis Beckwith of Baylor.
Editor (and convert) Douglas Beaumont observed:
​In Protestantism, there's a tendency to dismiss any
reason other ​​than the intellectual. But as human
beings, we're both physical and spiritual ​creatures. In
the Catholic Church, he found, intellect and reason are
respected; ​but the Catholic Church is also more beautiful
and more historical. There is an ​attractive package which
draws the spirit, combining art and music and beauty, a
​long history, and tradition, with solid intellectual
arguments.
Spirituality: Scott Hahn, another former evangelical now
Catholic, in his chapter "Come to the Father: The Fact at the
Foundation of Catholic Spirituality," in Four Views on Christian
Spirituality, notes the great diversity of expressions of
spirituality from the
. . . silence of the Trappists and the Pentecostal praise of the
Charismatic Renewal; the rarified intellectual life of the
Dominicans and the profound feeling of the Franciscans; the
wealth of the knights of Malta and the elected poverty of the
Missionaries of Charity; the strict enclosure of the Carthusians
and the world-loving secularity of the Opus Dei; the bright
colors of Central American devotional art and the austere blocks
of the German cathedrals; the warrior spirit of the Templars and
the serene pax of the Benedictines; Ignatian detachment and
Marian warmth.
He argues this shows the richness of Catholic spirituality which
"presents a forest indiscernible because of the variety and
number – and even the age – of its trees.”
From First Things​
First Things often offers an intellectually respectable,
nonpartisan examination of religious and other matters. In an
article entitled “Why Do Evangelicals Convert to Catholicism?”
Adam Omelianchuk offers reasons evangelicals convert to
Catholicism:
Authenticity and beauty in worship. Though many Catholics left
for more vibrant evangelical services, many miss the sense of
awe and reverence seen in the liturgy of the church, as it
“represented something sacred and beautiful.”
Intellectualism. “Catholicism has a rich intellectual pedigree
that remains competitive in today’s marketplace of ideas that
evangelicals hardly match. Catholics have traditionally been
leaders in such high professions like law, medicine, and
education, and Catholic universities often compete with and far
surpass those funded by the secular public. For a Christian
intellectual, Catholicism can be an antidote to evangelicalism’s
rampant anti-intellectualism.”
Church Polity. The various approaches of elder-led vs.
elder-ruled, the role of women, and other areas of dispute among
evangelicals makes the hierarchical approach of Catholicism
appealing for some when compared to "competing with one another
by the means of building a ministry around a cult of
personality, which so often drives evangelical ecclesiology.”
An Evangelical Assessment: Scott McKnight
McKnight examined this issue in an article for JETS (Journal of
the Evangelical Theological Society) entitled (ironically, for
this moment) "From Wheaton to Rome: Why Evangelicals Become
Roman Catholic."
He quotes Chesterton who says he took the path of Rome "to get
rid of my sins." McKnight argues Scott Hahn noted above and
musician (from the Jesus People Movement days) John Michael
Talbot––who moved from a Pentecostal-Fundamentalist faith to
becoming a Franciscan––offered two notable examples to
understand the transition.
McKnight offered four specific areas to help understand the move
to Catholicism.
These transitions are institutional in nature. It is not a
conversion to Christ but a perceived conversion to the fullness
of the Christian faith.
The context of the converts. McKnight notes how difficult it is
to convert from evangelicalism to Catholicism and that it is not
done lightly or without opposition from family and friends.
A "crisis" through various factors. An example is the desire for
transcendence, manifested in four key areas: certainty, history,
unity, and authority. There is a weighty continuity in the
history of Rome with the early Fathers, the Medieval
theologians, and more. The splintering of evangelicalism causes
some to admire both the centralized authority and the confession
of the church as "one" in Catholicism.
Quest, encounter, and commitment. “The quest of an ERC
[Evangelical to Roman Catholic) moves most often along the path
of encountering transcendence, though intellectual satisfaction
is the primary feature of that quest."
McKnight concludes with two contrasting points. First, there
will continue to be evangelicals concerting to Catholicism
"until the evangelical churches can get a firmer grip on
authority, unity, history, liturgy, and a reasonable form of
certainty on interpretation."
Second, "until the Roman Catholic Church learns to focus on
gospel preaching of personal salvation, on the importance of
personal piety for all Christians—and abandons its historical
two-level ethic—and personal study, and on the Bible itself,
there will be many who will leave Catholicism to join in the
ranks of evangelicalism."
So what are my thoughts?
Well, a few parts of my own journey. First, I was raised
nominally Roman Catholic in a New York City, Irish Catholic
household. We were not active, though it did leave an impact on
my life. Interestingly, my mother came to faith through the
Catholic Charismatic Cursillo movement.
While doing my M.Div., I attended a Catholic seminary (and later
transferred the credits to a Southern Baptist seminary). While I
was there, I took preaching (which, was not particularly helpful
as you might imagine) and Reformation History. It turns out they
have an entirely different view of that Reformation thing!
Mark is a friend—the Red Apple behind Christianity Today is our
lunch spot. We agreed on much, though we differed at
times—always amicably. (I did ask him about the photographer at
his new Catholic church and he pointed out that was from RNS.) I
also asked how long this was in process—was it while you were
writing your closing thoughts to evangelicals? (He told me he
explains more in his forthcoming book.)
However, I don’t blame converts. I do try to understand them.
And, like Mark felt it necessary to put Christianity Today on
record about sexuality after a former editor changed his view, I
thought it might be helpful to publish in the same magazine
about his conversion.
You see, I’ve known converts to Catholicism, and have talked
through the process with them. I get part of the reasons.
Actually, my own family converted to Eastern Orthodoxy (with my
stepfather becoming a priest). (I explain that here, in a long
article about Hank Hanegraaff’s conversion to Orthodoxy.)
Yet, I am (and remain) a conservative, evangelical protestant.
Furthermore, in that subcategory, I am a Baptist. And, for good
or for ill, my theological convictions of thirty years ago
remain pretty consistent. I lean reformed, believe in all the
spiritual gifts, and think the gospel works by grace alone, by
faith alone.
Yet, there are some things that a moment like this might cause
some self-reflection.
Here’s where it brings me. The strengths of evangelicalism also
reveal our weaknesses.
First, we are strong on the act of conversion, but not so much
on ongoing sanctification subsequent to the new birth. We need a
much more robust view of church, community, and the fullness of
Christian life.
Second, most, not all, evangelicals shy away from overly
ritualistic or liturgical worship, yet in so doing we turn our
services into performances and our time of singing into the
latest play list of what’s new. We have lost a sense of history
and heritage and have replaced the depth and breadth of historic
Christianity with the surface effects of pop culture.
Third, we emphasize practical Christianity (to the place of
sheer pragmatism sometimes) and too often ignore contemplation.
Yet most of us hunger for that which is beyond us, something
that cannot be captured in a four-point self-help sermon or
answered with a sound bite. “I came to church to meet with an
awesome God,” one unchurched person said at a megachurch she
visited, “But all I got was a Tony Robbins event.”
Fourth, we preach and teach the imminence of God, who can be our
friend and, in application, our life coach, who is interested in
the now of life. But we ignore the vast transcendence of God and
his work in creation and in history. We champion busyness and
workaholism and ignore Sabbath rest and seasons of prayer,
because it would hinder our activism.
Fifth, our activism has led us, fairly or not, to be categorized
as Donald Trump foot soldiers, which unquestionably has
contributed to the rise of Ex-vangelicals. Perhaps some of these
will move to Catholicism, Orthodox, or Anglican traditions.
At the end of the day, I’m not just a Protestant, I’m a somewhat
non-ecumenical one. I’ve been told that I’ve spoken at more
evangelical denominational meetings than anyone living. (I don’t
keep track, so I don’t know, but I do value evangelical
collaboration for mission and evangelism—because of our common
view of the gospel.)
But, I’m not a signer or Evangelicals and Catholics Together and
I don’t generally engage in broader ecumenical conversations.
Simply put, my focus is generally on evangelism and mission/s,
and evangelicals and Roman Catholics generally do not align in
such endeavors. (If you’d be interested in a dialogue between
Catholics, Orthodox, mainline, and evangelical missiologists,
please see the book we all contributed to, The Mission of the
Church: Five Views in Conversation.)
The Protestant view of the gospel—and the five solas of the
reformation—are (in my view) the best representation and
understanding of the gospel. I think it was a restoration of
biblical (and in some ways Augustinian) understanding of the
gospel. Roman Catholics generally have a different view. They
believe, for example, that salvation is by grace, but not grace
alone, at least not in the same way Protestants do.
That gives us a different understand about the gospel—and, as
such, I’m disappointed to see Mark leave that understanding of
the gospel for another.
He’s my friend (and he has read and given feedback on this
article). I imagine we will talk over this at the Red Apple
Pancake House.
But I remain a Protestant because of what I see in the Bible,
the conversion Jesus worked in my heart by His grace, and the
imperfect community of evangelicals that together we once
served.
Ed Stetzer is executive director of the Wheaton College Billy
Graham Center, serves as a dean at Wheaton College, and
publishes church leadership resources through Mission Group. The
Exchange Team contributed to this article.
[/quote]
so sad, but it has been prophesied.
Blade
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