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#Post#: 652--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: August 28, 2018, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jon Wood link ---
>
> [quote author=Jinkx link=topic=22.msg649#msg649
date=1535461063]
> My theological stance .... ? Not really sure that I have one.
It's rather a heinz 57 mix of my upbringing and uncertainty.
While admittedly, my Biblical knowledge is dusty, it isn't due
to the fact that I haven't read and studied the Bible, just more
of, it's been awhile.
>
> The one thing I do not have insofar as theology is a
closed-mind. I read and listen.
>
> Obviously being agnostic, I don't have a lot to offer insofar
as theology ... though the one thing is a blessing is the
comfort level I have at TF and this forum to inquire and
converse without the ridicule or disdain I have witnessed
elsewhere.
>
--- End Quote ---
I’m a fairly young Christian that is not very studied yet. I
like being here and TF, I’ve never been to any of the other
forums that everybody dislikes and i’m Kinda glad. I like having
a bunch of different people around to draw from and talk with.
[/quote]Read my post to Jinkx above. Nobody ever guided me as to
what to read when I picked up a Bible and started to read. I
found out by myself after wasting decades of my life ignoring
God's word.
Time goes fast and I am so happy with the knowledge I've gained
in the last 5 years. I have never felt so saved and sealed, so
secure in my salvation that it gives me confidence and the
ability to speak boldly about the gospel of Christ. I also love
small talk, being funny and silly and laughing hard everyday. I
have never been happier in my life and I'm now 49 and a half
almost exactly.
#Post#: 1385--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: Scripter
Date: October 3, 2018, 8:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I will paste my "un-testimony" here. I use the term because so
many 'testimonies' go off center and introduce things that are
truly not the once for all faith delivered to the saints.
I would just add one thing. Going out on a hike with my next
oldest brother, back from a term at a Bible college, he said
'God can't just forgive sin; there has to be a cost, a
punishment.' When most people hear this they think of something
they themselves must endure, but my brother was speaking of
Christ. I should add that though to this piece:
The Gospel with a Twist. How I was introduced to the Gospel in
spite of the Jesus revolution of the 70s
Marcus Sanford, www.interplans.net
I became a Christian at a Bible camp one summer in middle
school. I have found that the content of this was fairly
unique. The counselor explained that I had a debt of $100 with
him. And it needed to be paid back, or else…they might have to
send me home. No more water slides or 3:OO ice cream feeds.
You have to realize 2 things at this point. Going to camp was
sort of your first experience completely away from your family
or friends places where you sort of knew what the rules were.
You expected the counselor to be nice, but hey, he could be a
rough character who liked to pick on little kids. You didn't
know yet, and this debt thing could kind of throw you. The 2nd
thing was that this was 1964. How much was $100? All that
mattered was that it was huge, and out of my threshold. I
supposed I could earn it in a year, but I didn't even have a
feel for a year.
Now, either I could come up with that (I calculated it would
take about a year but at that age, I couldn’t even get a ‘feel’
for a week), or I could take an offer his friend (another
counselor) was making to me to pay it off for me. They even
reenacted it. I could hardly refuse. I had little idea how
advanced this was. What I did realize later was that by
comparison, the idea of Jesus coming inside you was not nearly
has helpful as many adults thought. Instead I had been
introduced to debt, credit (from a 3rd party) and really to
justification. It was not that I was short on joy or wonder from
it all. But all the adults who talked about Jesus being inside
talked about that like they had found a way to make that happen.
I was humbled by a sense of gratitude that this debt story had
been presented. In fact, I didn’t know why, if the debt story
was true, it would matter if Jesus “came into my life” (I mean,
if the counselor was really right, the sort of ‘magic’ of the
experience of Christ coming inside was off-target. It is a
metaphor, but not what actually matters). I began to see that
many times the debt and gift of credit arrangement was the
actual construct of the business of being saved in some of
Jesus' "simple" parables (in case someone thinks Paul
'complicated' him). Still later I found out that that is what
justification by an imputed righteousness means.
If you have trouble understanding the value of your
justification before God through someone else's righteousness
(Christ’s), it could very well be the nebulous effect of
straining your imagination to grasp what it means to have Christ
“inside” you as a child. You shouldn’t have to. That’s the
Gospel I nearly missed, and how I nearly missed it.
In the 70s when there was supposedly a revival going on in
America, the countercultural Jesus people, etc., I found the
subjective emphasis to be hollow. Telling an experience is by
nature a bit competitive. There was no equality, there was
instead more attention to the person with the most drama. This
kept shrinking my concept of truth, until one day I heard a
forum of speakers I can only describe as missionaries TO America
say that it was all mistaken!
They were from Australia, and one was an
ex-communicated-Adventist minister, but with the most coherent
sense of truth I had ever heard. Part of this was the trauma of
being ex-Adventist, but part of it was his being submerged in
Spurgeon and Luther. I had no idea of the type of ground broken
by Luther, or that the essential Roman Catholic doctrine all
along was that the inner transformation of a person is what
justification meant to them. And so I had learned something of
why God wanted me to hear the debt/credit story as a kid.
Having grown up as an Missionary Kid, it had dawned on me that
people might COME TO America for the same reason as I had gone
to Africa. In fact, by being gone between 1969 and 71, the
revolutions of the 60s had shown themselves in drastic fashion
(and I don't mean miniskirts). What the Australian Forum's
genius was, I learned, was that without a strong judicial
framework in talking about our affairs with God, the side-effect
on our culture, even if we thought we were talking Gospel, was a
weakening of the awe and wonder and terror of God. It is one
thing wish people would get a sense of those things, and quite
another to actually talk about imputed righteousness, which
immediately clears up an incredible amount of subjective
clutter. As the Forum would say: “The gospel of a
‘changed-life’ has taken the place of the Gospel which changes
lives” and become a market-driven enterprise largely susceptible
to the sexual revolution in its slack morality.
That explained a lot. A lot about America. In fact, it was not
long after this that "addiction" words were used about Jesus
(psychedelic verbs, ‘far out,’ ‘trip,’ etc.), all about the most
current of experiences, and no one was gaining in what Lewis
would call the Asgard effect: recognition of his honor and
wonder and might entirely apart from 'what's in it for me' of a
god who may not 'come up with goods' by tonight (also language
from the drug world) or even for a long while. (Asgard is a 13th
century Nordic king-god on whom Aslan is modeled). So this is
why I learned the Gospel as I did. I hope I can pass on the
legacy of this high view of God to others. You always value
imputed righteousness, because where past sin abounds, grace
abounds even more, ever new. But that is much different from
the type of Jesus we hear about providing cash, motorcycles and
new girlfriends.
#Post#: 1387--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: Scripter
Date: October 3, 2018, 8:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My 'un-testimony' did not deal with D'ism:
While a grew up in a Dispensationalist futurist church, the main
reason for leaving that kind of thinking was triteness,
soundbytes, and crassness. When you get tired of that and want
to see actual thought go into a position, you probably won't be
D'ist. I found satisfaction in reading Lewis and Schaeffer on
many things, and found that the churchfolk just did not know
what they were getting at, so it was too hard to pretend that
they had a real handle on what the NT was saying.
#Post#: 1390--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 3, 2018, 11:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Scripter link ---
>
> My 'un-testimony' did not deal with D'ism:
>
> While a grew up in a Dispensationalist futurist church, the
main reason for leaving that kind of thinking was triteness,
soundbytes, and crassness. When you get tired of that and want
to see actual thought go into a position, you probably won't be
D'ist. I found satisfaction in reading Lewis and Schaeffer on
many things, and found that the churchfolk just did not know
what they were getting at, so it was too hard to pretend that
they had a real handle on what the NT was saying.
>
--- End Quote ---
I know you as @Interplanner from TF then. I recall reading your
un-testimony there and found myself fond of the $100 debt
scenario, I liken it to a tangible parable. I think one of the
leading explanations of why people engage in theological study
is a dissatisfaction with the way local churches operate and
teach. People like myself begin to wonder past what we are told
in brick and mortar establishments that we’ve attended and
question how much of the teaching therein is just an appeal to a
wide audience, coupled with the opinions of the church leaders.
#Post#: 1777--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: guest17
Date: October 23, 2018, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jon Wood link ---
>
>
HTML https://comps.canstockphoto.com/theology-drawings_csp11824598.jpg
>
>
> I was wondering this about others today. I’m Closest to an
open view because I chose to try and strip as close to bare
bones as I could when I came back to God. I wanted to learn as
if I knew nothing except basic morality, and the Love of God
through Christ and the Spirit. Because everything the local
churches had been (while I ran from God) was more biased toward
politics and focusing more on condemnation of others, than it
was about showing others how to come to Christ. I’m really in
the beginning stages of learning and most of my study is on my
own while I pray to understand necessary passages in God’s own
time. I also study on another forum that I like because there
are a variety of different viewpoints presented and I feel that
it reminds me to cut my own bias and assumptions from my
studies.
>
>
>
> [glow=red,2,300]I want this to be a place for deep thinking,
light conversation and discussion, sharing thoughts and
feelings, knowledge and wisdom and most of all FUN. [/glow]
>
> [glow=red,2,300]Post anything you want here. Start new topics
and be seen by thousands. Promote your links and sites and
spread your message. Join Free and post now !!![/glow]
>
>
--- End Quote ---
It's a long story with me and not easy to explain. I'm 61 and
I've been to so many churches in my life, some by force and
others by choice. So I've seen and experienced a lot that way.
It was a definite learning curve.
As a child I felt extremely close to God and I attended church
regularly, a Baptist church. But it wasn't in the church that I
learned about God and felt close to him. I would take walks in
the woods and sit and watch and listen. One time there were rays
of sunlight streaming down through the trees. It was really
beautiful. I put my hands into the stream of sunlight and it was
like connecting with God and I could actually feel that energy
and I smiled thinking, how great you are making such beautiful
things. And for me the woods were like a Cathedral where I
really felt God's presence and the beauty all around me and the
animals, some of which would come up to me and let me touch
them. It was my sanctuary. I felt God's love just like a loving
Father. If I was sad, he would comfort me. If I was afraid, he
made me feel safe. If I asked questions, it was like he had a
way of answering them somehow. I don't 'mean he spoke out loud
or anything but it was an inward voice. He was always reassuring
me.
But as I grew older, I lost that kind of close connection. The
expectations of the churches I went to with their guidelines for
membership and things I was expected to do and believe and the
doctrines just seemed to build a wall between me and God.
Anyway, at this point in my life, I try to draw close to God
like I did when I was a child. It's hard to really listen the
same way now as I did then because I was changed so much in
churches and things got in the way. But there are still times
when I can hear him speaking to me inside when I really listen.
I know that one day I will once again have and feel that close
connection with God. I look forward to that. I still think of
God as a loving Father and I cherish those memories I had as a
child with childlike faith when there was nothing to interfere
with that.
#Post#: 2285--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: November 17, 2018, 2:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [glow=red,2,300]I want this to be a place for deep thinking,
light conversation and discussion, sharing thoughts and
feelings, knowledge and wisdom and most of all FUN. [/glow]
>
> [glow=red,2,300]Post anything you want here. Start new topics
and be seen by thousands. Promote your links and sites and
spread your message. Join Free and post now !!![/glow]
>
>
--- End Quote ---
It's a long story with me and not easy to explain. I'm 61 and
I've been to so many churches in my life, some by force and
others by choice. So I've seen and experienced a lot that way.
It was a definite learning curve.
As a child I felt extremely close to God and I attended church
regularly, a Baptist church. But it wasn't in the church that I
learned about God and felt close to him. I would take walks in
the woods and sit and watch and listen. One time there were rays
of sunlight streaming down through the trees. It was really
beautiful. I put my hands into the stream of sunlight and it was
like connecting with God and I could actually feel that energy
and I smiled thinking, how great you are making such beautiful
things. And for me the woods were like a Cathedral where I
really felt God's presence and the beauty all around me and the
animals, some of which would come up to me and let me touch
them. It was my sanctuary. I felt God's love just like a loving
Father. If I was sad, he would comfort me. If I was afraid, he
made me feel safe. If I asked questions, it was like he had a
way of answering them somehow. I don't 'mean he spoke out loud
or anything but it was an inward voice. He was always reassuring
me.
But as I grew older, I lost that kind of close connection. The
expectations of the churches I went to with their guidelines for
membership and things I was expected to do and believe and the
doctrines just seemed to build a wall between me and God.
Anyway, at this point in my life, I try to draw close to God
like I did when I was a child. It's hard to really listen the
same way now as I did then because I was changed so much in
churches and things got in the way. But there are still times
when I can hear him speaking to me inside when I really listen.
I know that one day I will once again have and feel that close
connection with God. I look forward to that. I still think of
God as a loving Father and I cherish those memories I had as a
child with childlike faith when there was nothing to interfere
with that.
[/quote]
[size=12pt]I'm blessed to have never lost my childlike faith.
I've just always known that God is real and near since as far
back as I can remember, so my parents must have told me about
God. Yes tj I love being in the woods and all of nature and I
have a deep love for all animals. I pray for everybody here and
I'm praying that you get that close connection back and more !!!
I can go a month or more of not feeling close to God but usually
it's not that long. I can't always pray like I want to or
should. But when I really think and focus on God and Jesus
Christ I can feel the spirit and I feel extremely close to God.
He has been working in my life and making good things happen. I
give all praise and glory to God.
As I look back on my life I can see that God was doing different
things with me at different periods. I strayed and stopped
believing for years. I was watching Ancient Aliens and learing
about the Mayans. I was reading a book about Edgar Cayce "The
Sleeping Prophet". I was way out there, way off base. I started
believing all that crap and never reading the Bible.
It's when I started using a small but long pocket KJV Bible that
the holy spirit started speaking to and teaching me. I still get
the same spirit whenever I read that or any Bible now. But I
really enjoy the King James version. You will get that close
relationship back soon so pray for it. Thank you for sharing
again. You have shared so much with us on both forums and we all
feel like we know you you. I feel like I know all of you and
more each day.I like this smaller forum sometimes.
#Post#: 2403--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: November 21, 2018, 9:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR?
At the Time of the End, the wise shall understand. Dan 12:10
Understanding the expression "No man knows the day or hour" is
not possible
by simply taking the English translation literally, because in
the book of
Daniel and the Book of Revelation, we are given EXACT
descriptions of
timing, relative to KEY events - such as the shutting down of
the altar
sacrifices in Jerusalem at the MID-POINT of the 70th week. Dan
9:27
Jesus was asked, "When shall these things be?" Matt 24:3
His answer ties us in to a very specific event (The Abomination
of
Desolation) which can be measured on our calendars: "When you
therefore
shall see the Abomination Of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the
prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him
understand:)..." Matt 24:15.
It is now clear that "no man knows the day or hour" does NOT
mean "no man
knows the day or hour" as we read it from a modern-day English
perspective.
>From his book "Signs In the Heavens" by Avi Ben Mordechai, he
devotes a
chapter to explaining what "no man knows the day or hour" truly
means from
a rabbinical Hebraic perspective. It is a figure of speech.
The following chapter contains edited excerpts from Avi Ben
Mordechai's
commentaries and builds on them aiming to explain that the Holy
Bible does
in fact reveal the "day and hour" or "exact timing" of our
Lord's Return.
No One Knows the Day or the Hour?
Christians over the centuries have separated themselves from
their Hebraic
roots causing the misunderstanding of key Jewish biblical
idioms. An idiom
is also a figure of speech. When Y'shua (Jesus) uttered His
famous words
concerning the Messianic Era in Mattityahu (Matthew) 24:26,
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
Heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father", He used a common Jewish figure of speech
referring to a
specific Jewish Festival. In essence He was saying, "I am coming
for My
Bride on such and such a day! Be watching!" What day could the
Jewish idiom
be referring to? Keep reading!
HEBRAIC ROOTS
Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) was Jewish and lived a
Torah-observant Jewish life. Evidence suggests that He
communicated to His
audience in the Hebrew language, in Hebraic ways. What does it
mean to
communicate in Hebraic ways?
It means to think and talk like a Jew. In Y'shua's day it meant
to speak in the language and idioms of the day.
Those who heard the Lord speak knew what He was saying and
usually what He was
alluding to unless He was speaking in parables, which had their
own
analogies. Of course, today's generation of believers struggles
to
understand His words and concepts.
Speaking, thinking and acting like the
Jewish Rabbi He was helped His mission in bringing the gospel
message to
"the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24).
Y'shua was quoted in Mattityahu (Matthew) 8:11 as saying: "I say
to you
that many will come from the east and the west, and will take
their places
at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of
Heaven".
Since we are talking about Jewish idioms, have you ever
considered the meaning of
these words? Specifically, our Lord used and confirmed common
Jewish ideas
about the Day of the Lord - the millennium - and its relation to
the Feast
of Sukkot (Tabernacles) in Z'kharyah 14.
In speaking, Y'shua referred to
the Festival and its traditional guests of honour, Avraham,
Yitzchak and
Ya'acov, called the ushpizin (uoosh-piz-zin) or seven shepherds
(exalted
guests), invited into every succah (tabernacle) at the Feast of
Sukkot in
the fall of the year.
The seven shepherds in descending order are
1. Avraham (Abraham), 2. Yitzchak (Isaac), 3. Ya'acov (Jacob),
4. Mosheh
(Moses), 5. Aaron, 6. Yosef (Joseph) and 7. HaMelech David (King
David).
By mentioning the feast and three of the seven shepherds,
His audience
immediately understood the allusion to the Messianic age -
"Millennium" or
"Day" of the Lord.
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost"
(Luke 19:10).
Again, in this simplistic phrase Y'shua, the Son of Miriyam and
Yosef,
spoke of two things: His Deity (by calling Himself the subject
of the
prophet Dani'el's vision) and His mission (by calling Himself
the One God
Who spoke to Mosheh on Mount Sinai) as it is written in Dani'el
and
Yechezk'el (Ezekiel):
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was One like
a Son of
Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient
of Days
and was led into His presence (Dani'el 7:13-14).
For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I Myself will search
for My sheep
and look after them (Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 34:11ff).
In the Gospel narrative of Luke 23:31, Y'shua said: "For if men
do these
things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
In this
verse Y'shua points His audience, who had portions of the
writings of the
Prophets memorized, to the verses in Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 20:45
to 21:7.
Without question, Y'shua's hearers knew He referred to Chevlei
HaMashiach
or Ya'acov's Trouble in the Great Tribulation and warned His
audience that
what they do to Him in hardness of heart now, God will do to the
nation in
judgement later.
Y'shua's encounter with Natan'el (Nathanael) is recorded in
Yochanan (John)
1:47-48: When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, He said of him,
"Here is a
true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false". "How do You
know me?"
Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still
under the
fig tree before Philip called you".
Again, our Lord used a strong figure of speech pointing to a
widely taught
Jewish expectation concerning the resurrection and the
millennium. In
brief, He told Natan'el that he will be alive on the Last Day to
inherit
the land promised to Avraham (Bereshith-Genesis 17:8). From
Y'shua's words,
Natan'el understood he would participate in the resurrection
since "that
Day" was yet future.
This is understood in the first century Jewish figure
of speech, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree",
which
refers to life and study of Torah in the millennium (Midrash
Rabbah
Genesis, Rabbah Song of Songs).
Y'shua also told Natan'el that he is like
righteous Avraham who received his reward for trusting God. This
is
understood because of the phrase, "Here is a true Israelite, in
whom there
is nothing false". The millennial concept of the fig tree is
found
throughout the Tanach including Z'kharyah 3:10:
"In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under
his vine and fig tree", declares the
LORD Almighty. For this reason Natan'el responded emphatically
to Y'shua
and His words, saying: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are
the King of
Israel!"
God through HaMashiach Y'shua spoke to the Jews in many portions
and in
many ways (Hebrews 1:1-2) relying upon known figures of speech,
common
expectations and direct thoughts from Talmudic and Pharisaic
teachings. The
concepts I addressed only scratch the surface, so-to-speak.
Every phrase
and word from the mouth of the Lord meant something to His
audience. He
spoke with precision. With that as a basis, let us go on to one
of the most
interesting Jewish figures of speech misunderstood by the Church
over the
years. It concerns Y'shua's phrase,
"No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the
Father". In
context, He refers to the home-taking of His bride, the
beginning of the
Messianic era and His millennial reign as King of kings over all
the earth.
To understand this concept, we begin by examining its
foundation.
ROSH HASHANAH
Chapter Five described the annual Jewish Festival of Trumpets or
Rosh
HaShanah - the first day of the seventh month. A few themes
linked to this
Jewish festival are resurrection, repentance, kingship,
corronation and a
marriage feast.
This chapter shows another theme and convincing proof that
Rosh HaShanah is not only the start of "The Day of the Lord"
(Millennium),
but is also the day of the resurrection! It has to do with the
moon and its
29-day cycle of renewal.
In this period of slightly less than 30 days, the moon goes from
darkness
to light and back to darkness again. This is not a haphazard
occurrence
attributed to evolution or science.
God planned it for many reasons, one
being as a picture of resurrection and renewal. With each cycle
of nearly
30 days the ancient rabbis understood that the moon was being
reborn or
"born again" (Sefard siddur, Mussaf for Shabbat and Shabbat Rosh
Chodesh,
p. 509 and 646-648).
NEW MOON
In Y'shua's day, the moon was so important that a Jewish
festival was
proclaimed at the beginning of every month (Talmud Tractate
Chaggigah 17b;
Shavuot 10a; Arachin 10b). This was called the New Moon Festival
and in the
B'rit Chadashah, Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul) makes note of it
(Colossians 2:16).
Even in the Tanach, King David provoked King Sha'ul (Saul) over
it (1
Shmu'el-Samuel 20:5).
In the coming millennium the gate of the inner court
of the Temple facing east shall be opened on the new moon
(Yechezk'el-Ezekiel 46:1).
And finally in the millennium all nations will
celebrate the New Moon festival every month (Yeshayahu-Isaiah
66:23). It is
obvious from the Hebrew Scriptures that in the millennium God
has no plans
to do away with His system.
Since it is so important, exactly what is a new moon? It is the
opposite of
a full moon. Every month the moon goes through a complete cycle
of renewal
called Rosh Chodesh, the head or beginning of the renewed month.
Twelve
times a year on Rosh Chodesh, the moon always starts off with
its disk
being very dark to the naked eye.
Over the course of 15 days it gets
brighter and brighter until it finally reaches a full
white-faced disk or
full moon. Over the next 15 days it becomes darker and darker
and finally
becomes invisible to the naked eye again.
The ancient rabbis saw a great lesson in this. Just as the moon
has no
light of its own but receives its light from the sun, so we too
have no
light of our own and must receive it from God.
As the moon goes through a
near 30-day cycle of dark to light to dark, so we need constant
spiritual
renewal and repentance. Like the moon, we too must be reborn or
"born
again" into HaMashiach and constantly renewed through
repentance. This is
why God called it a faithful witness in the sky (Mizmor-Psalm
89:37).
If the moon is so important to God, why do we pay so little
attention to
it? We have lost touch with God's faithful witness in the sky.
But Y'shua
and the people of His day never lost touch with it. And as I
previously
noted, not only was the new moon necessary for the Jewish
calendar, it was
also a monthly festival celebrated with a feast fit for a king!
So, when
Y'shua said His famous words in Mattityahu-Matthew 24:36, it had
far-reaching implications. Here are the words of Y'shua in a few
different
translations:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but
my Father only. (KJV)
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the
Son, but only the Father. (NIV) But of that day and hour knoweth
no one,
not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father
only. (ASV)
About the exact time, however, and the hour, none knows - not
even the
messengers of Heaven; but My Father alone. (Fenton Modern
English
Translation)
Failing to think like Y'shua and taking phrases out of Jewish
context can
lead one to misunderstand His words. For example, in many places
of the
B'rit Chadashah Y'shua knew the future and talked about it
openly. In one
instance He warned His talmidim (disciples) about their future
saying,
"See, I have told you ahead of time" (Mattityahu-Matthew 24:25).
His
context concerned the tribulation, the destruction of the
Temple, the rise
and fall of false messiahs (antichrists), etc.
If He knew the future in
Mattityahu 24:25, and the context concerns the Day of Trouble,
why would He
suddenly speak as though He did not know the future in the same
context
just 11 verses later in Mattityahu 24:36? Was He confused? Or
was He making
perfect sense in light of the customs of the Jews?
Since the subject of our discussion is the new moon and figures
of speech,
realize the phrase, "Of that day and hour no man knows" refers
to the
sanctification or setting apart of the new moon. Without this
sanctification, the Jews had no way of determining God's
"appointed times"
or moedim.
Twelve times a year a new Jewish month (Rosh Chodesh) was
announced to the
people. We have no system like it today. We look at a calendar
to determine
the first of the month; the Jews, however, looked at the moon.
This system
of chronology was given to the Jews to know precisely when the
Holy
festivals (moedim) would fall (there are still eight of them;
seven
appointed times and Shabbat). The moon was the faithful Jewish
calendar or
witness in the sky and 12 times a year was sanctified as the
basis of the
Jewish stellar calendar.
GOD'S APPOINTED TIMES
Because the moon was so important for Jewish date - setting, the
authorities
in charge of announcing the new moon in Y'rushalayim took great
care to
ensure the first day of the month was announced on time. To
correctly
announce the first day of the month, established by the new
moon, was one
of the Sanhedrin's greatest responsibilities. They had to ensure
the people
knew when the first of the month began 12 times a year!
Therefore God said
to the leaders of Israel:
These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations
which you
shall proclaim at the times appointed for them
(Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:4).
In other words, God gave the Sanhedrin authority to announce and
sanctify
the new moon to the people. Its proclamation on earth was
supported by God
in Heaven (c.f. Mattityahu 18:18-20 where the Jewish context
supports a
believers' Sanhedrin as seen in Acts 15).
As soon as the new moon was
announced, the first day of the month began. Once the beginning
of the new
month was established, the festivals and weekly Shabbats for the
upcoming
month were sanctified for observance. In Hebrew, those
observances have
always been called "appointed times" or moedim, literally "a
sacred and
set time".
From God's perspective, the appointed times belong to Him
(Midrash Rabbah Numbers, Vol 2.21.25, p. 852) and no one has the
authority
to change the celebration of an appointed time.
To do so was a serious
matter and great sin. Appointed times had to be kept because of
their
Messianic implications.
Further in Vayikrah (Leviticus) 23:4, notice the phrase, "holy
convocation". The phrase in Hebrew is mikraw kodesh, better
translated,
"holy convocation and rehearsal". In other words, God's
appointed times are
actually "holy rehearsals" set apart to reflect events in the
Messianic
era. God said to the people,
"Pay attention! On this day I am going to do
something! Wake-up! The Jews were to know and practice all of
God's mikraot
or holy convocations. This is the essence of Rav Sha'ul's words
that the
Shabbat, new moons and festivals, "are a shadow of things to
come; the body
of Mashiach" (Colossians 2:17).
Twice a year, in the spring and fall, there were several
appointed times
and specific days of holy convocation dedicated to the Lord. The
new moon
was the key in being able to fulfill those set times, holy
convocations and
rehearsals.
For example, when the new moon was announced on the first day
of Nisan, also called Aviv, the people knew when to observe the
holy
convocations and set times of the 10th (Shemot-Exodus 12:3),
14th and 15th
(Shemot-Exodus 12:6; Bamidbar-Numbers 33:3), 16th
(Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:15), and finally the 21st.
In the same way, when the new moon was
announced on the first day of Tishri also called Ethanim, the
people knew
when to observe the Holy convocations of the 1st
(Vayikrah-Leviticus
23:23), 10th (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:26), 15th
(Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:39),
and 22nd (Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:36).
Thus from the announcement of the new
moon to the festival dates which followed, it was only a matter
of counting
the right number of days. In a moment you will understand how
this applies
to the phrase that Y'shua spoke concerning His coming again.
THE SANHEDRIN AND THE TWO WITNESSES
The Mishnah, also referred to as the Oral Law, dealt with the
legal
elements of daily Jewish religious life, in Hebrew called
halachah. In the
treasure of the first and second century halachah we find many
explanations
to help us understand the Torah particularly in Y'shua's day
since it was
still oral then.
In volume two called "moed" or festival, tractate Rosh
HaShanah teaches us about the Sanhedrin and its selection
process of two
witnesses who would tell us when the new moon arrived. Once a
month the
Sanhedrin discussed when to proclaim the new moon. They did this
through
the agency of two witnesses, the element of all legal
transactions in
Judaism.
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or
for any
sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses,
or at the
mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deut 19:15
The men were important because by their witness, Israel
celebrated God's
appointed times. They had to be of good character and were
always treated
with great honour.
They had special privileges such as authorization to
ride into Y'rushalayim on horseback on the Shabbat to bring the
good news
of the new moon festivities! The men had special status because
they were
the confirmation that Y'hudah (Judaea) depended on for the
correct timing
of the new month and the festivals.
Rosh HaShanah Chapter 2, Mishnah 5 reads: There was a large
court in
Jerusalem called Beth Ya'azek. There all the witnesses used to
assemble and
the Beth Din used to examine them. They used to entertain them
lavishly
there so that they should have an inducement to come. (The
witnesses were
allowed to break the Shabbat travel restrictions for this one
purpose lest
they might be reluctant to come and give the essential evidence
of the
sighting of the new moon).
Continuing in Chapter 2, Mishnah 6: How do they test the
witnesses? The
pair who arrive first are tested first. The senior of them is
brought in
and they say to him, tell us how you saw the moon - in front of
the sun or
behind the sun? To the north of it or the south? How big was it,
and in
which direction was it inclined?
And how broad was it? If he says (he saw
it) in front of the sun, his evidence is rejected. After that
they would
bring in the second and test him.
If their accounts tallied, their evidence
was accepted, and the other pairs were only questioned briefly,
not because
they were required at all, but so that they should not be
disappointed,
(and) so that they should not be dissuaded from coming.
In qualifying the witnesses, the Sanhedrin used the following
criteria:
They never arrived at the same time.
They were never questioned at the same time.
There were always two new witnesses each month.
In short, the two qualified witnesses usually stood before the
Nassi or
President of the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) to give account
of the
moon's appearance prior to its becoming total dark (Moed Rosh
HaShanah,
Chapter 3, Mishnah 1).
Just before the moon's disk enters total darkness,
there are tiny slivers of white on the edges of the waning disk.
These were
called the "horns" of the moon.
Correctly sighting the "horns" (on the
waning crescent) determined the beginning of the new month. Once
the two
witnesses were qualified and questioned, if the President (who
had
knowledge of astronomy) was convinced their observation was
accurate, he
publicly sanctified the start of the new month.
After careful scrutiny to determine the official arrival of the
new moon,
the Nassi or President of the Sanhedrin proclaimed Rosh Chodesh
with the
words: "Sanctified", and all the people repeat after him,
"Sanctified,
sanctified". After the proclamation, the Sanhedrin ordered
watchmen on the
nearby hillsides to light fires and thus inform the Jews in all
of Y'hudah
(Judaea), Shomron (Samaria), Egypt, Babylon and the galut
(diaspora) that
the new month had begun. That started the festival of the New
Moon and
counting of the next 29- days to the next new month
proclamation.
Again, once the Sanhedrin set Rosh Chodesh, or the beginning of
the new
month by sighting the new moon, the rest of the festivals were
calculated.
However, the seventh month, Tishri, was particularly important
because it
was the only month that had a holy convocation or appointed time
on the
first day of the month.
This posed a unique problem. The first day of
Tishri was the appointed time called Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of
Trumpets
(Vayikrah-Leviticus 23:24). Yet no one could begin observing the
festival
until they heard those famous words from the President of the
Sanhedrin,
"Sanctified!"
No one in Israel could plan for the first day of the seventh
month Tishri,
called Yom Teruah or the Feast of Trumpets (also called Rosh
HaShanah).
When they knew how many days to count to a festival, that would
be easy.
But:
HOW COULD THEY PLAN FOR A FESTIVAL THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW AT
WHAT DAY OR
HOUR IT WOULD PUBLICALLY BE ANNOUNCED AND THUS BEGIN?
This was unique to Rosh HaShanah and dependent upon the
testimony of the
two witnesses. Prophetically, we are informed of two important
witnesses
during the Great Tribulation:
And I will give power unto My Two Witnesses, and they will
prophesy 1260
days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:3
Of course, anyone could look up into the twilight or early
morning sky and,
if they looked hard enough, see the new moon or at least its
"horns". And
certainly an astute observer knew when about 29- days were
completed since
the previous Rosh Chodesh.
But recall, ONLY THE SANHEDRIN NASSI had the
authority to proclaim the first of Tishri, which was already
established as
a technical procedure.
Once proclaimed, the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh
HaShanah) commenced. Until that public announcement by the
Nassi, everyone
had to wait before they could begin the observance of the
festival. No one
could begin the festival beforehand!
Thus, we can more clearly see the
analogy Jesus made with His words: "But of that day and hour
knoweth no
man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" was in
regards to
this important festival of Rosh HaShanah.
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#Post#: 4672--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: March 29, 2019, 9:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Billy Evmur link ---
>
> Let's ramble a little, I'm 67 so I'm entitled.
>
> I was saved by means of an [American] gospel magazine, in my
own home...but it was dramatic. One moment I did not know God,
the next I did, one moment I had no concept of the Holy Spirit,
the next I was overflowing with His joy and power, one moment I
did not understand a jot of the bible, the next it was an open
book to me.
>
> I read the KJV through 3 times in the first 18 months...then
read the RSV and the Living through. I still read at least a
chapter a day, sometimes more....above all else I am a bible
lover, I hate to see the twistings that go on, that's my bible,
the much loved word of my Lord.
>
> I am finicky as heck about which theologians or teachers I
listen to, Corrie ten Boom and T.L.Osborn whose magazine it was
through who I was saved settled me in my faith....I moved away
from T.L.'s faith based theology [as indeed HE did in his later
years] toward the more stable grace teachings of
C.H.Spurgeon...though I rejects much of Calvinism. I love Joseph
Prince.
>
> I believe the full Pentecostal whack because I got the full
Pentecostal whack...my great sadness has been that until quite
recently the Pentecostals themselves had fallen far behind and
so fellowship was difficult...I sat at the back of large
assemblies longing for revival.
>
> I have stood with a few ministers in establishing little
evangelical enterprises and have seen souls saved and lives
turned around...great miracles. I rarely do the upfront stuff,
but I am known in certain circles...have preached in the open
air and seen souls saved, preached in London's Hyde Park. :)
>
> There I rambled a little...there is but a scratching on the
surface of all that God has done for me...I love Him and trust
Him come what may.
>
--- End Quote ---
I love it Billy. I'm trying to start replying and interacting in
threads more here now after spending 8 months or so building up
this forum. I might change the name of the forum in the future
and I'd luv your suggestions. For me, my theology was decidedly
Catholic until 5th grade but I went no further in the church. I
heard a lot of scripture during Mass but they were mostly all
the same and boring. I enjoy a good Catholic service now. My
mom's side of the family is Pentecostal and my mom and family
have spoken in tongues and my uncle Larry Thornton is in with
the Assemblies Of God outfit and he interprets tongues speaking.
I got into drugs and spent the next 30 years not touching a
Bible and thinking religion was fake and superficial and
invented to keep the masses in line. It wasn't until I got on
the internet for the very first time in 2014 and created a YT
channel just so I could comment. Then I watched only the news
and various odd videos. I can look back over these last 5 years
and impart so much of God's love and guidance in my life it
freaks met out !!! I am amazed at God's doings in my life.
So I started searching for deeper thinking material like
theology and stumbled on Grace Ambassadors who teach Mid Acts
Pauline Dispensational doctrine which always seemed correct to
me. The Holy Spirit opened the KJV to me and I finally
understood what is written, Well, much of it but not all. I
would love to hear more about your life Billy and also everybody
here on this forum and their lives. I really learn from your
posts on TF and thank you for being here for us all.
#Post#: 4977--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: guest8
Date: April 15, 2019, 9:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: patrick jane link ---
>
> [quote author=Billy Evmur link=topic=22.msg174#msg174
date=1533733145]
> Let's ramble a little, I'm 67 so I'm entitled.
>
> I was saved by means of an [American] gospel magazine, in my
own home...but it was dramatic. One moment I did not know God,
the next I did, one moment I had no concept of the Holy Spirit,
the next I was overflowing with His joy and power, one moment I
did not understand a jot of the bible, the next it was an open
book to me.
>
> I read the KJV through 3 times in the first 18 months...then
read the RSV and the Living through. I still read at least a
chapter a day, sometimes more....above all else I am a bible
lover, I hate to see the twistings that go on, that's my bible,
the much loved word of my Lord.
>
> I am finicky as heck about which theologians or teachers I
listen to, Corrie ten Boom and T.L.Osborn whose magazine it was
through who I was saved settled me in my faith....I moved away
from T.L.'s faith based theology [as indeed HE did in his later
years] toward the more stable grace teachings of
C.H.Spurgeon...though I rejects much of Calvinism. I love Joseph
Prince.
>
> I believe the full Pentecostal whack because I got the full
Pentecostal whack...my great sadness has been that until quite
recently the Pentecostals themselves had fallen far behind and
so fellowship was difficult...I sat at the back of large
assemblies longing for revival.
>
> I have stood with a few ministers in establishing little
evangelical enterprises and have seen souls saved and lives
turned around...great miracles. I rarely do the upfront stuff,
but I am known in certain circles...have preached in the open
air and seen souls saved, preached in London's Hyde Park. :)
>
> There I rambled a little...there is but a scratching on the
surface of all that God has done for me...I love Him and trust
Him come what may.
>
--- End Quote ---
I love it Billy. I'm trying to start replying and interacting in
threads more here now after spending 8 months or so building up
this forum. I might change the name of the forum in the future
and I'd luv your suggestions. For me, my theology was decidedly
Catholic until 5th grade but I went no further in the church. I
heard a lot of scripture during Mass but they were mostly all
the same and boring. I enjoy a good Catholic service now. My
mom's side of the family is Pentecostal and my mom and family
have spoken in tongues and my uncle Larry Thornton is in with
the Assemblies Of God outfit and he interprets tongues speaking.
I got into drugs and spent the next 30 years not touching a
Bible and thinking religion was fake and superficial and
invented to keep the masses in line. It wasn't until I got on
the internet for the very first time in 2014 and created a YT
channel just so I could comment. Then I watched only the news
and various odd videos. I can look back over these last 5 years
and impart so much of God's love and guidance in my life it
freaks met out !!! I am amazed at God's doings in my life.
So I started searching for deeper thinking material like
theology and stumbled on Grace Ambassadors who teach Mid Acts
Pauline Dispensational doctrine which always seemed correct to
me. The Holy Spirit opened the KJV to me and I finally
understood what is written, Well, much of it but not all. I
would love to hear more about your life Billy and also everybody
here on this forum and their lives. I really learn from your
posts on TF and thank you for being here for us all.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left] a long story......for sure.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 5157--------------------------------------------------
Re: How did you arrive at your current Theological stance?
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: April 23, 2019, 8:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That's all you got to say?
*****************************************************
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