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#Post#: 2042--------------------------------------------------
Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: bernardpyron Date: November 7, 2018, 5:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
και ουτως
πας ισραηλ
σωθησεται
καθως
γεγραπται
ηξει εκ σιων
ο ρυομενος
και
αποστρεψει
ασεβειας
απο ιακωβ
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall
come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness
from Jacob: "
Focus on "και ουτως
πας ισραηλ
σωθησεται" "And in
this way all Israel shall be saved."
See:
HTML https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm
οὕτως, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Number 3779. houtós, in this way, thus, so, in this manner.
Houtos refers back to what Paul says in Romans 11, prior to
verses 25-26.
Paul begins Romans 11 by talking about the remnant of Israel in
verses 1-6. He says in Romans 11: 5-6 that "Even so then at
this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace.6. And if by grace, then is it no more of
works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Here he establishes that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel has
become part of God's elect by grace.
Then in Romans 11: 11-12 he brings in the Gentiles and says in
Romans 11: 12: " Now if the fall of them be the riches of the
world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fullness?" "Them" is Old Covenant Israel.
Then in Romans 11: 20-23 he says "Well; because of unbelief
they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear: 21. For if God spared not the natural
branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22. Behold
therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23. And they
also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be "graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again."
Paul is saying all along in Romans 11 that the elect of God is
made up of both Gentiles and Jews who have been made into the
elect by their faith.
So in Romans 11: 26 when he says in this way all Israel shall be
saved he does not mean that only those of the literal, physical
bloodline from Abraham will be saved. He said as early as
Romans 11: 6 that the elect are saved by grace.
The Literalist "Hermeneutic" of dispensationalism may help make
dispensationalists unable to see that Romans 11: 26 refers back
to Paul's including the elect Gentiles and elect Jews in one
unified group, since Paul uses the word "Israel" which for
dispensatonalists apparently can mean only Old Covenant Israel.
The "Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16 could help
dispensationalists understand this "All Israel" in Romans 11:
26. But the separation between Old Covenant Israel and the
Church is so strong in dispensationalism that this is a
difficult stretch to see for dispensationists.
#Post#: 2813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: patrick jane Date: December 16, 2018, 9:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The Unsearchable Riches of Christ
1 hour
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#Post#: 2816--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: Bernard Pyron Date: December 16, 2018, 4:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
He says that Paul reveals a mystery and something new not said
before in II Corinthians 5: 17. and Paul also talks about a new
creature also in Galatians 6: 15.
But - is Paul not explaining what being born again in John 3:
1-6 means in a more specific way in II Corinthians 5: 17 and in
Galatians 6: 15?
And in Romans 12: 2 Paul in saying that we should be
transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is another way
of explaining what is meant by being born again.
This guy is dividing scripture according to a church theology -
dispensationalism - which he does not mention, at least not in
the part I listed to. He is dividing scripture into Paul's
revelation and other New Testament writers who do not talk about
a New Creature. This dividing of scripture is part of an
explaining of a systematic church theology which came on the
scene from John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer - and
others.
The theology focuses more on dividing scripture up to fit this
systematic theology than it is concerned with presenting the
Gospel of Christ in a way which actually does produce New
Creatures.
Reformation "theology" did not try to present such a systematic
theology based upon the opening postulate that God has two
groups of the elect and two different programs.
Rather one thing Reformation "theology" tried to do was to
inspire people to become born again as New Creatures by the
Gospel through the Spirit.
Look at what John Calvin says about Galatians 6: 15 -
"
HTML https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/galatians-6.htm
"The reason why he is crucified to the world, and the world to
him, is, that in Christ, to whom he is spiritually united,
nothing but a new creature is of any avail. Everything else must
be dismissed, must perish. I refer to those things which hinder
the renewing of the Spirit. “If any man be in Christ” says he,
“let him be a new creature.” (2 Corinthians 5:17.) That is, if
any man wishes to be considered as belonging to the kingdom of
Christ, let him be created anew by the Spirit of God; let him
not live any longer to himself or to the world, but let him be
raised up to “newness of life.” (Romans 6:4.) His reasons for
concluding that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of
any importance, have been already considered. The truth of the
gospel swallows up, and brings to nought, all the shadows of the
law. "
"And upon the Israel of God (101) This is an indirect ridicule
of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being
the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two
classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to
be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision
was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before
God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to
those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by
faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers,
whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On
the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel
according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the
Epistle to the Romans, that “they are not all Israel which are
of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are
they all children.” (Romans 9:6.) "
#Post#: 3990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: patrick jane Date: February 18, 2019, 12:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Dispensationalism Vs. Covenant Theology
What are the differences between dispensationalists and those
who believe in covenant theology?
19 minutes
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#Post#: 3994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: guest8 Date: February 18, 2019, 7:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=217.msg3990#msg3990
date=1550514308]
Dispensationalism Vs. Covenant Theology
What are the differences between dispensationalists and those
who believe in covenant theology?
19 minutes
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[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]My Take:
Well, The speaker does characterize the covenant theology as it
really is!
However, as a dispensationist (or he appears to be one), he
forgets how to literally read the bible. Especially when it
pertains to the election of the Remnant of Israel and a few
other areas of millennium.
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 3995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: bernardpyron Date: February 18, 2019, 7:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Zechaiah 12: 10 says "And I will pour upon the house of David,
and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and
of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have
pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his
only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn."
I have seen Zechariah 12: 10 quoted before as a defense of
dispensationalism's postulate that Old Covenant Israel remains
the Chosen People of God.
and as a support for the dispensationalist interpretation of
Romans 11: 26 that Israel must refer to the multitude of Old
Covenant Israel, or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10:
18).
But like Amos 9: 11-12, and some other Old Testament
prophecies, such as Micah 4: 6-7. Zechariah 12: 10 is an Old
Testament prophecy of the restoration of Old Covenant Israel.
James deals very briefly with Amos 9: 11-12 in Acts 15: 14-18:
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the
Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15.
written,
16.
tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build
again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17.
the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who
doeth all these things.
18.
world."
James says the words of the Old Testament prophets agree that
God was to include the Gentiles in his people.
Amos 9: 11-12 in the King James Version says "In that day will I
raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up
the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will
build it as in the days of old:
12.
heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth
this." There is nothing about the Gentiles seeking after the
Lord in the King James Version for Amos 9: 11-12, which is
interesting.
This probably means that James was using the Septuagint, which
says for Amos 9: 11-12, " In that day I will raise up the
tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins
of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken
down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the
remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is
called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all
these things."
The Septuagint for Amos 9: 11-12 does say the gentiles will seek
God.
Note thought that James says the prophets - of the Old Testament
- not just Amos 9: 11-12 agree that God was to include the
Gentiles in his people.Zechariah 12: 10 does not say that God is
to include the Gentiles as part of his people.
MIcah 4: 6-7 says "In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble
her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and
her that I have afflicted;
7.
cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them
in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."
Micah 4: 6-7 in the Septuagint says "In that day, saith the
Lord, I will gather her that is bruised, and will receive her
that is cast out, and those whom I rejected. 7 And I will make
her that was bruised a remnant, and her that was rejected a
mighty nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Sion
from henceforth, even for ever."
James may mean than all the Old Testament prophecies on the
restoration of Old Covenant Israel agree that in that
restoration God was to include Gentiles, which suggests that
this restoration is the New Covenant itself.
The question is why would Christians be drawn to a man made
theology which focuses more on the multitude of physical Old
Covenant Israel than it does on Jesus Christ and his Gospel
which is able to transform people into new creations.
#Post#: 3999--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: guest8 Date: February 18, 2019, 9:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bernardpyron link=topic=217.msg3995#msg3995
date=1550541259]
Zechaiah 12: 10 says "And I will pour upon the house of David,
and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and
of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have
pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his
only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn."
I have seen Zechariah 12: 10 quoted before as a defense of
dispensationalism's postulate that Old Covenant Israel remains
the Chosen People of God.
and as a support for the dispensationalist interpretation of
Romans 11: 26 that Israel must refer to the multitude of Old
Covenant Israel, or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10:
18).
But like Amos 9: 11-12, and some other Old Testament
prophecies, such as Micah 4: 6-7. Zechariah 12: 10 is an Old
Testament prophecy of the restoration of Old Covenant Israel.
James deals very briefly with Amos 9: 11-12 in Acts 15: 14-18:
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the
Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15.
written,
16.
tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build
again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17.
the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who
doeth all these things.
18.
world."
James says the words of the Old Testament prophets agree that
God was to include the Gentiles in his people.
Amos 9: 11-12 in the King James Version says "In that day will I
raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up
the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will
build it as in the days of old:
12.
heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth
this." There is nothing about the Gentiles seeking after the
Lord in the King James Version for Amos 9: 11-12, which is
interesting.
This probably means that James was using the Septuagint, which
says for Amos 9: 11-12, " In that day I will raise up the
tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins
of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken
down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the
remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is
called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all
these things."
The Septuagint for Amos 9: 11-12 does say the gentiles will seek
God.
Note thought that James says the prophets - of the Old Testament
- not just Amos 9: 11-12 agree that God was to include the
Gentiles in his people.Zechariah 12: 10 does not say that God is
to include the Gentiles as part of his people.
MIcah 4: 6-7 says "In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble
her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and
her that I have afflicted;
7.
cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them
in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."
Micah 4: 6-7 in the Septuagint says "In that day, saith the
Lord, I will gather her that is bruised, and will receive her
that is cast out, and those whom I rejected. 7 And I will make
her that was bruised a remnant, and her that was rejected a
mighty nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Sion
from henceforth, even for ever."
James may mean than all the Old Testament prophecies on the
restoration of Old Covenant Israel agree that in that
restoration God was to include Gentiles, which suggests that
this restoration is the New Covenant itself.
The question is why would Christians be drawn to a man made
theology which focuses more on the multitude of physical Old
Covenant Israel than it does on Jesus Christ and his Gospel
which is able to transform people into new creations.
[/quote]
[shadow=blue,left]bernardpyron , God has TWO plans. One for the
Remnant of Israel and One for the Church (Body/Bride of Jesus
Christ). They just happen to take place in two different
dispensation periods.
Keep in mind that the first believers of the Church was all Jews
until Cornelius. For some 1900+ years believers from all over
the earth have joined the Body of Jesus to become His future
Bride. This includes all peoples.
Once the Church is removed from this earth, the anti-christ will
be made public and there will be several years of tribulation
including Daniel's70th week which will end in a 1000 Year reign
of Jesus Christ on David Throne ON EARTH.
At this time, there are no believers on earth except the 144,000
who will bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world.
For those people who lived and survived in the various nations
of the world (except Israel), who survive Daniel's 70th week and
the Sheep and Goat Judgement will live on earth during the
Millennium.
Those Jews that God calls, will follow the instructions given to
them and flee Jerusalem. During this time, as prophesied in Rev.
12, Satan will try to kill all of them as they flee toward the
mountains to the south were Petra awaits.
Those saved will be only one third of the population of Israel
as the other 2/3 have been killed for their unbelief. We see
this in Isa 28:14-18 where they make a covenant with the
anti-chrtist. WOE to them.
Thus, 'All of Israel' will be saved and will live during the
millennium.
Yes, The New Covenant will apply here as we see in: Heb 10:16
and
Heb 8:10:"For this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my
laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will
be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Blade[/shadow]
#Post#: 16751--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: patrick jane Date: August 28, 2020, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
fascinating
#Post#: 19772--------------------------------------------------
Re: Take A Closer Look At Romans 11: 26:
By: patrick jane Date: October 29, 2020, 1:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=217.msg16751#msg16751
date=1598645856]
fascinating
[/quote] ;D
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