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       #Post#: 15411--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: July 19, 2020, 8:43 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X10yCRt39bs
       #Post#: 15589--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: July 26, 2020, 9:14 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHI-gnZG-PE
       #Post#: 15647--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: sneakydove Date: July 28, 2020, 7:18 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Just putting this here to have a place to put it.
       One of the prime examples I am frequently given of the world
       being a globe has something to do with measuring distances in
       the southern hemisphere.  People look at the Azimuthal
       Equidistant map and say, "Here, look at how long the sun is up
       in on the equator and look at how long the sun is up over the
       55th degree south latitude.  It would be up for different
       times."  Or, "Look at how fat Australia is.  Surely it must be
       really long to drive across.  How come nobody has done that
       yet?"
       On the face of it that argument looks quite damaging.  People
       bring the axioms they are used to using when looking at the
       world as a globe and try to use them to break down the flat
       earth.  But that's exactly the trouble, the axioms of the two
       worldviews are very different.
       A fair number of globe believers don't really understand what
       lines of latitude and longitude represent.  Most think of them
       as being ways of breaking up the ball earth into regular
       sections.  In reality the lines of latitude and longitude are
       measurements of earth made relative to the fixed features of the
       sky and the passage of time.  For example, Polaris the North
       Star is the central focus of the northern lines of latitude, 90
       degrees north latitude meaning the North Star would be directly
       overhead.  (Not that anybody has actually claimed to be there,
       but I digress.)  Lines of longitude have been
       arbitrarily[sup]a[/sup] designated to come from Greenwich in
       England.  They have no fixed-in-time celestial marker like
       Polaris, although they do have regular markers in the form of
       the zodiac and the sun.
       Considering that these lines are the product of the relationship
       between the sky and the earth, and how we primarily calculate
       the measurements of the (ball) earth stem from the sky via the
       Eratosthenes method, using these lines to disprove the flat
       earth is irrelevant.  In the globe concept, the earth is a ball
       and the sky's features extend effectively infinitely out in all
       directions.  In the planar concept, the earth is flat and the
       sky presents itself to us as though the inside of a sphere when
       (assuming the dome firmament worldview) those features are
       refracted through the watery medium of the dome firmament.  In a
       simple abstract, if the shape of the earth shifts, the shape of
       the sky shifts a similar proportion.
       So to goes the discrepancy of measurement of distances with
       statute distances (like kilometers or miles), to relational
       distances (seconds, minutes, and degrees lat/long and nautical
       miles)[sup]b[/sup]. Statute distances are of fixed value over
       the face of the earth (or up, or nonlinearly).  Relational
       distances like nautical miles change depend upon your markers,
       in this case celestial markers.  For example, you can walk a
       mile on a winding path or on a straight path and personally
       travel the same distance.  However, if you were measuring the
       distance traveled relative to a fixed point, the winding path
       would result in an absolute measurement of shorter distance than
       the straight path.
       On an Azimuthal plane, relational distances in the southern
       hemisphere would become longer if measured statute.  However
       this is further complicated by how those areas were first
       charted in the first place.  They were almost certainly charted
       relationally to the celestial features when they were first
       measured.  How much of that then was measured statute and how
       much was measured relational?  As time has passed, whosoever is
       "in-the-know" of this grand conspiracy has certainly dipped
       their toes into the method of measure of these southern regions,
       if they were not the primary charters.  If an individual wants
       to know the score on how the alleged down-under was measured,
       they would have to perform the relational and statute
       measurements from scratch and compare notes to the accepted
       values.  Using celestial bodies alone as a method of proving or
       disproving the Azimuthal plane as the shape of the earth is
       moot.
       Historically, there are records of the southern areas not
       corresponding to charted values.  In particular this was noted
       in longer travel times for goods being shipped across the
       Atlantic to or past the southern coast of Africa.  Additionally,
       there are reports of traversing the southern hemisphere near
       along a particular southern latitude taking a great deal more
       time than anticipated.  If memory serves, these instances are
       both noted in the works of Samuel Rowbotham[sup]p[/sup].
       Contemporary indications are noted in the absence of
       flight-tracking south of the equator.[sup]c[/sup]  Similar
       discrepencies are noted for freight ships leaving
       Australia.[sup]d[/sup]
       It is far more difficult to measure the earth than the main
       stream would have you believe.  I would even go so far to say as
       it is impossible to truly measure the earth.  I'm reminded of
       God challenging Job to measure the breadth of the earth.  The
       methods we have used or have been taught to use have been based
       on faulty axioms and thus resulted in the mess of the globe.
       [sup]a[/sup] Exactly how arbitrary that may be relative to
       occulted sources I can't say for certain.
       [sup]b[/sup] The definition of nautical miles has fairly
       recently been given a standard statute value of roughly 1.82 km
       if memory serves.  This further compounds the contemporary
       confusion.
       [sup]c[/sup]  Given the crackdown on flat earth content on the
       main stream platforms, it would not surprise me if some
       simulated elements in flight tracking have been added.  I can
       say that when I first came to research the shape of the world I
       was unable to find consistent flight data off Brazil.
       [sup]d[/sup] If I can find the source again I should like to
       link it here.
       [sup]p[/sup] I have found a reference as being from Alex
       Gleason's "Is the Bible from Heaven, Is the Earth a Globe" in
       chapter 19, p379.  Also of interest is Gleason's Chapter 17
       which covers other items brought up in this post.
       #Post#: 15671--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: July 28, 2020, 11:54 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Excellent post sneakydove, much appreciated. I might post this
       in another thread here also.
       #Post#: 15729--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: July 30, 2020, 11:54 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I'm still pondering this
       #Post#: 15750--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: sneakydove Date: July 31, 2020, 8:43 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Is there anything I can clarify for you?
       #Post#: 15751--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: July 31, 2020, 8:58 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=sneakydove link=topic=19.msg15750#msg15750
       date=1596246239]
       Is there anything I can clarify for you?
       [/quote]Not yet as I agree with everything you posted. I heard
       that nautical miles are roughly the same as a standard mile but
       I only heard that. I also cite Job and the measuring of the
       earth. My belief is that the earth beyond the Antarctic Circle
       goes on for possibly tens of thousands of miles in all
       directions.
       I believe the earth cannot be measured and that we "found out"
       the earth is not what we are taught in 1946 with the V2 rocket
       and images. I think most rocket launches and "missions" are
       trying to collect images and data of the earth and cosmos. They
       certainly were not going to announce that the globe model is
       incorrect.
       Nobody will ever know because nobody can explore beyond the ice
       wall, but rest assured that the military of several nations has
       attempted to understand and grasp the reality of what we live
       in.
       #Post#: 15755--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: sneakydove Date: July 31, 2020, 10:14 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=19.msg15751#msg15751
       date=1596247131]
       Not yet as I agree with everything you posted. I heard that
       nautical miles are roughly the same as a standard mile but I
       only heard that.[/quote]
       From Wikipedia, which shouldn't be too compromised on this
       particular subject:
       [quote author=Wikipedia]Historically, it was defined as one
       minute ([sup]1[/sup]/[sub]60[/sub] of a degree) of latitude
       along any line of longitude.[/quote]
       These days a nautical mile is 1.15 miles statute.  This robs it
       of its relational meaning.
       [quote] I also cite Job and the measuring of the earth. My
       belief is that the earth beyond the Antarctic Circle goes on for
       possibly tens of thousands of miles in all directions.[/quote]
       That's quite possible.  Visual phenomena in the deep south
       arctic probably look really odd as you near the dome wall.
       There might well be an awful lot of area to cover before you get
       there.  Such a shame we can't just go visit.
       [quote]I believe the earth cannot be measured and that we "found
       out" the earth is not what we are taught in 1946 with the V2
       rocket and images. I think most rocket launches and "missions"
       are trying to collect images and data of the earth and cosmos.
       They certainly were not going to announce that the globe model
       is incorrect.[/quote]
       No, they can't make an announcement.  It goes against pretty
       well every agenda.  The illusion of countries being separate
       entities?  About as separate as football teams; they're still in
       the same club or league.  Evolution and space aliens?  Can't let
       that cat out of the bag, then the atheists might start reading
       the Bible.
       I agree the earth can't be measured.  The predominant measuring
       stick used is light, and (to borrow from John) they that are in
       darkness comprehendeth it not.
       [quote]Nobody will ever know because nobody can explore beyond
       the ice wall, but rest assured that the military of several
       nations has attempted to understand and grasp the reality of
       what we live in.
       [/quote]
       I'm sure they've tested it and framed aspects of it for our
       consumption in the guise of ball-earthness.  Satellites very
       well might be fixed locations on the dome, for example.  The
       military will attempt to understand it only so far as it
       satisfies their ends, IE for purposes of warfare.  Imagine the
       deceptions you can pull if you know there's a dome and nobody
       else does?  Project things in the sky maybe, like a giant
       drive-in theater?
       #Post#: 15764--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: patrick jane Date: August 1, 2020, 7:20 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=sneakydove link=topic=19.msg15755#msg15755
       date=1596251699]
       [quote author=patrick jane link=topic=19.msg15751#msg15751
       date=1596247131]
       Not yet as I agree with everything you posted. I heard that
       nautical miles are roughly the same as a standard mile but I
       only heard that.[/quote]
       From Wikipedia, which shouldn't be too compromised on this
       particular subject:
       [quote author=Wikipedia]Historically, it was defined as one
       minute ([sup]1[/sup]/[sub]60[/sub] of a degree) of latitude
       along any line of longitude.[/quote]
       These days a nautical mile is 1.15 miles statute.  This robs it
       of its relational meaning.
       [quote] I also cite Job and the measuring of the earth. My
       belief is that the earth beyond the Antarctic Circle goes on for
       possibly tens of thousands of miles in all directions.[/quote]
       That's quite possible.  Visual phenomena in the deep south
       arctic probably look really odd as you near the dome wall.
       There might well be an awful lot of area to cover before you get
       there.  Such a shame we can't just go visit.
       [quote]I believe the earth cannot be measured and that we "found
       out" the earth is not what we are taught in 1946 with the V2
       rocket and images. I think most rocket launches and "missions"
       are trying to collect images and data of the earth and cosmos.
       They certainly were not going to announce that the globe model
       is incorrect.[/quote]
       No, they can't make an announcement.  It goes against pretty
       well every agenda.  The illusion of countries being separate
       entities?  About as separate as football teams; they're still in
       the same club or league.  Evolution and space aliens?  Can't let
       that cat out of the bag, then the atheists might start reading
       the Bible.
       I agree the earth can't be measured.  The predominant measuring
       stick used is light, and (to borrow from John) they that are in
       darkness comprehendeth it not.
       [quote]Nobody will ever know because nobody can explore beyond
       the ice wall, but rest assured that the military of several
       nations has attempted to understand and grasp the reality of
       what we live in.
       [/quote]
       I'm sure they've tested it and framed aspects of it for our
       consumption in the guise of ball-earthness.  Satellites very
       well might be fixed locations on the dome, for example.  The
       military will attempt to understand it only so far as it
       satisfies their ends, IE for purposes of warfare.  Imagine the
       deceptions you can pull if you know there's a dome and nobody
       else does?  Project things in the sky maybe, like a giant
       drive-in theater?
       [/quote]I've posted a longer explanation in other threads and
       the Biblical Flat Earth thread is my main FE thread, but I think
       the land is frozen and unreachable by any mode of
       transportation. I don't think anyone can reach the "edge" or the
       dome wall, if you will.
       The distances and temperatures combined with communication
       problems and supply problems makes extended travel literally
       impossible. It would be necessary to build communication towers,
       landing strips and refueling stations along with perhaps dozens
       of other factors relating to things that can't be done.
       The total size and scope of the earth plane is immeasurable and
       it does not move, as established many times in scripture. I
       think the land mass eventually forms a square shape, giving us
       the Four Corners of the Earth and the four angels as depicted on
       this image I will post below.
       [img]
  HTML https://static.wixstatic.com/media/36dd1a_d83b5bb19da14f2d8d07bde0603f9b1c~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_958,h_958,al_c,q_85/36dd1a_d83b5bb19da14f2d8d07bde0603f9b1c~mv2.webp[/img]
       #Post#: 15768--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Can You Debunk Flat Earth? 
       By: sneakydove Date: August 1, 2020, 7:07 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       That is VERY interesting!
       I seem to recall postage stamps that depicted a map of the world
       were issued in the USA. It could have been any time between the
       late 1940s and mid 1980s.  On those map stamps, the antarctic
       was HYUUUGE.  (It might have been a poster published by the post
       office and not an actual stamp.  These are some foggy memories
       I'm working with here.)
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