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#Post#: 23553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
By: patrick jane Date: January 9, 2021, 11:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=1173.msg23552#msg23552
date=1610213694]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=1173.msg23456#msg23456
date=1610047794]See, now I think these verses show the triune
God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit
that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a
more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and
enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this
thread.
[/quote]
ImCo:
The scriptures validate nothing... Our personal interpretations
of what they mean validates our preconceptions.
The only true validation comes from the Spirit, personally, the
One who leads us into all truth. This is a personal validation
that can be shared but not proven...like all doctrine.
I have put my faith in the One GOD in 3 persons, amen. Not
because I have proof, (faith is an unproven hope, remember) but
because I have faith in the Spirit who leads me to be
Divine.
[/quote]Well put, and I am the same way. The triune God was
revealed to me by the holy spirit as a child and many times
since. Thanks Ted -
#Post#: 23554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
By: guest8 Date: January 9, 2021, 3:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=1173.msg23553#msg23553
date=1610213859]
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=1173.msg23552#msg23552
date=1610213694]
[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=1173.msg23456#msg23456
date=1610047794]See, now I think these verses show the triune
God, with the word "We". Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I must admit
that I quit debating this topic and started leaning towards a
more non trinitarian view of God. This is a very deep and
enigmatic topic to say the least. Thank you for starting this
thread.
[/quote]
ImCo:
The scriptures validate nothing... Our personal interpretations
of what they mean validates our preconceptions.
The only true validation comes from the Spirit, personally, the
One who leads us into all truth. This is a personal validation
that can be shared but not proven...like all doctrine.
I have put my faith in the One GOD in 3 persons, amen. Not
because I have proof, (faith is an unproven hope, remember) but
because I have faith in the Spirit who leads me to be
Divine.
[/quote]Well put, and I am the same way. The triune God was
revealed to me by the holy spirit as a child and many times
since. Thanks Ted -
[/quote]
may I ask about ImCO? and who/what this is?
The literal interpretation needs no further interpretation
Blade
#Post#: 23558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: guest58 Date: January 10, 2021, 9:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote][font=verdana]may I ask about ImCO? and who/what this
is?The literal interpretation needs no further
interpretation[/font]
[font=verdana]Blade[/font][/quote][font=verdana]
In my Christian[/font] [font=times new roman]opinion...[/font]
[font=times new roman][/size][/font]
[font=times new roman][/size]If there was no need for help above
the literal interpretation then there could be no contrary
interpretations, no? Everyone believes they have the literal
interpretation...yet they contradict.[/font]
[font=times new roman][/size][/font]
[font=times new roman][/size]I don't know why the word Christian
is not coming thru properly but my toggle view link is not
working to fix it.[/font]
#Post#: 25108--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: rstrats Date: February 12, 2021, 6:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can the father, and the son and the holy spirit converse back
and forth among themselves, and can God join in when he so
wishes?
Also, not that it proves anything, of course, but I think it's
interesting to note that Paul never once includes the holy
spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
#Post#: 25109--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validate via Scripture.
By: rstrats Date: February 12, 2021, 6:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Bladerunner,
re: "indwelling spirit of GOD Yet, to get here at this place in
time, we must first be baptized in what?: Mat 28:19.."Go ye
therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
For what it's worth, if anything:
The Catholic Encyclopedia II (Page 263)
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ
to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church
in the second century.”
Britannica Encyclopedia 11th Edition, Vol 3 (Page 82, and Pages
365-366)
“Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took
place in the name of Jesus Christ.”- “The baptismal formula was
changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son,
& Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
Canney Encylopedia of Religion (Page 53)
“The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
until development of the Trinity doctrine in the 2nd century.”
#Post#: 25111--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: patrick jane Date: February 12, 2021, 10:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=rstrats link=topic=1173.msg25108#msg25108
date=1613132995]
Can the father, and the son and the holy spirit converse back
and forth among themselves, and can God join in when he so
wishes?
Also, not that it proves anything, of course, but I think it's
interesting to note that Paul never once includes the holy
spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
[/quote]Maybe not in the salutations but he does in the
scriptures he writes.
#Post#: 25112--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: guest58 Date: February 12, 2021, 11:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=True Believer link=topic=1173.msg23454#msg23454
date=1610045380][font=Verdana]Trinity cannot be validated via
Scripture.
HTML https://3169.createaforum.com/new-board-10/trinity-cannot-be-validate-via-scripture/msg23454/#msg23454[/font]
[/quote]
If validate means to prove then I must agree but then nothing of
the Spirit is proven by scripture.... Scripture attests to the
truth but the understanding of that truth AS truth is from the
Spirit, not the words themselves.
There are people who know the truth of GOD, HIS divinity and
power, yet they exchange that truth for a belief in the lies
about HIM and this reality because they love sin more than the
truth... [/color]Rom 1.
Even the words "GOD us love!" and "GOD is one!"[color=rgb(182,
40, 38)], the strongest attestation to the nature of YHWH in the
Bible, is corrupted by sinners.
The Spirit I follow proclaims YHWH as the Unity of three Divine
Persons as ONE GOD.
PS: the formatting options seem to be busted...
#Post#: 25113--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: patrick jane Date: February 12, 2021, 11:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=1173.msg25112#msg25112
date=1613149239]
[quote author=True Believer link=topic=1173.msg23454#msg23454
date=1610045380][font=Verdana]Trinity cannot be validated via
Scripture.
HTML https://3169.createaforum.com/new-board-10/trinity-cannot-be-validate-via-scripture/msg23454/#msg23454[/font]
[/quote]
If validate means to prove then I must agree but then nothing of
the Spirit is proven by scripture.... Scripture attests to the
truth but the understanding of that truth AS truth is from the
Spirit, not the words themselves.
There are people who know the truth of GOD, HIS divinity and
power, yet they exchange that truth for a belief in the lies
about HIM and this reality because they love sin more than the
truth... [/color]Rom 1.
Even the words "GOD us love!" and "GOD is one!"[color=rgb(182,
40, 38)], the strongest attestation to the nature of YHWH in the
Bible, is corrupted by sinners.
The Spirit I follow proclaims YHWH as the Unity of three Divine
Persons as ONE GOD.
PS: the formatting options seem to be busted...
[/quote]Thank you Ted, brother.
#Post#: 25115--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: guest116 Date: February 12, 2021, 2:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ted T. link=topic=1173.msg25112#msg25112
date=1613149239]
[quote author=True Believer link=topic=1173.msg23454#msg23454
date=1610045380][font=Verdana]Trinity cannot be validated via
Scripture.
HTML https://3169.createaforum.com/new-board-10/trinity-cannot-be-validate-via-scripture/msg23454/#msg23454[/font]
[/quote]
If validate means to prove then I must agree but then nothing of
the Spirit is proven by scripture.... Scripture attests to the
truth but the understanding of that truth AS truth is from the
Spirit, not the words themselves.
There are people who know the truth of GOD, HIS divinity and
power, yet they exchange that truth for a belief in the lies
about HIM and this reality because they love sin more than the
truth... [/color]Rom 1.
Even the words "GOD us love!" and "GOD is one!"[color=rgb(182,
40, 38)], the strongest attestation to the nature of YHWH in the
Bible, is corrupted by sinners.
The Spirit I follow proclaims YHWH as the Unity of three Divine
Persons as ONE GOD.
PS: the formatting options seem to be busted...
[/quote]
While I struggle with the trinity at times from a purely
academic side, this reply is one of the best I have seen. Thank
you Ted. T
#Post#: 27037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Trinity cannot be validated via Scripture.
By: patrick jane Date: March 17, 2021, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[img]
HTML https://www-images.christianitytoday.com/images/122130.jpg?w=940[/img]
HTML https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/march/matthew-barrett-simply-trinity-evangelical-revisionist.html
Evangelical Thinking on the Trinity Is Often Remarkably
Revisionist
Theologian Matthew Barrett diagnoses our drift away from an
orthodox understanding of Father, Son, and Spirit.
By and large, American evangelical Christians have conservative
views of Scripture and morality. According to theologian Matthew
Barrett, however, their most basic claims about God are often
remarkably revisionist.
Barrett, professor at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
and executive editor of Credo Magazine, is the author of Simply
Trinity: The Unmanipulated Father, Son, and Spirit. The book—a
follow-up to his 2019 work None Greater: The Undomesticated
Attributes of God—does two things. First, it shows how a good
portion of evangelical theology on the Trinity has drifted from
the classical Christian tradition. Second, it recruits a
veritable “dream team” of teachers from across that tradition to
lead readers back to the safe harbor of biblical orthodoxy. The
tone is accessible, but the sources are deep.
How has evangelicalism gone wrong in its understanding of the
Trinity? Barrett ranges broadly, but he fixes on the
development, in recent theology, of what he calls “social
trinitarianism.” Proponents of this view, which is more of a
common posture than a monolithic school, tend to conceive of the
oneness of God as a community of persons. Barrett introduces
some of its major figures, including liberal theologians like
Jürgen Moltmann and Leonardo Boff and American conservative
counterparts like Wayne Grudem and Bruce Ware.
The hallmark of social Trinitarianism is its willingness to
appropriate the relationships between the persons of the Trinity
as a model for various social projects. For liberals like
Moltmann and Boff, this can mean invoking the equal status of
Father, Son, and Spirit to advance an egalitarian vision of
society. Conservatives like Grudem and Ware sometimes point to
supposed hierarchies within the Trinity—namely, what they call
the Son’s “eternal submission” to the Father—as grounds for
their complementarian views on gender roles. (Plenty of
complementarians disagree. Liam Goligher, pastor of Tenth
Presbyterian Church, raised the alarm several years ago in a
viral blog post accusing Grudem and Ware of undermining the
unity that exists between Father, Son, and Spirit.) Simply
Trinity provides a thorough analysis of how revisionist trends
in Trinitarian theology have settled into the seemingly
conservative world of American evangelicalism.
What’s the way home? In part two of his book, Barrett retrieves
classical Trinitarian teachings, addressing the relationship of
eternity and history while affirming the oneness and simplicity
of God. The doctrines he covers—the “eternal generation” of the
Son, the “eternal procession” of the Spirit, and the
“inseparable operations” of the triune God—can sound rather
elevated, but Barrett explains them with ease and clarity.
Amid these chapters, Barrett also offers a single chapter
examining the claim by Grudem, Ware, and others that the Son is
“eternally subordinate” to the Father. He rightly shows that the
relations of origin between Father, Son, and Spirit profoundly
affect our understanding of salvation.
The book isn’t perfect. Barrett doesn’t always go deep enough in
addressing either the root causes of recent revisionism or the
glories of classical Christian understandings of the Trinity.
And he fails to locate the work of Trinitarian reflection within
larger questions of Christian spiritual formation, which
restricts the book’s focus mainly to matters of intellectual
debate and biblical interpretation.
This doesn’t quite match the mode of classical Christian
thought. Take the fourth-century church father Gregory of
Nazianzus, for example. In his Five Theological Orations, he
certainly addresses Bible passages about the Father, Son, and
Spirit—but only after reflecting on the spiritual preparation
needed for Trinitarian conversation.
In his Confessions, Augustine demonstrates that God, as
characterized in Scripture, is a person unlike any other. But
Social Trinitarianisms, of the left or the right, tend to make
the mistake of drawing false analogies between God and other
people. Unless we address that root malady, we’ll continuing
seeing symptoms of theological error pop up from time to time.
Still, Simply Trinity goes a long way toward identifying and
excising some of these harmful tendencies. For anyone who has
read confusing blog posts about the Trinity in recent years, the
book will help you regain your theological bearings. And for
anyone seeking to recover the riches of worshiping one God in
three persons, Barrett will prove a more than able guide.
Michael Allen is the John Dyer Trimble Professor of Systematic
Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, Florida.
He is a co-editor of The Oxford Handbook of Reformed Theology.
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