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#Post#: 851--------------------------------------------------
Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest5
Date: September 9, 2018, 11:17 pm
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[img]
HTML https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/zombies-hand-silhouette-picture-id849048646?k=6&m=849048646&s=612x612&w=0&h=gi_xgzs2XMoE-TYYvcLSIK5rItb9ayl3qjc2HjEICPw=[/img]
So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an
Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential
problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.
With full access to your consciousness, you would have access
to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you
weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own
hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly
be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that
torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea
of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to
not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So
I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal
torment.
On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that potentially
soothing information, is that person fully themselves and
subject to the same punishment as they would have been before
they were altered for the torment?
#Post#: 853--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest2
Date: September 10, 2018, 1:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Judgement can be a bitch.
Thank God he sent Jesus, who came willingly.
#Post#: 855--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest17
Date: September 10, 2018, 4:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jon Wood link ---
>
> So i’m Curious of the level of Conciousness Involved within an
Eternal Conscious Torment description of Hell. I see a potential
problem and I don’t know if it’s been pointed out elsewhere.
>
> With full access to your consciousness, you would have access
to thoughts that could be relieving of the torment if you
weren’t so focused on being selfish and worrying about your own
hellish torment. So, can those who know how to be selfless truly
be tormented for all eternity? If they aren’t subject to that
torment, does that make them believers even if they have no idea
of Jesus? I don’t think it takes knowing Jesus to know how to
not be a selfish jerk, but i’m Sure it’s a pretty common way. So
I see a hole in the logic there for fully conscious eternal
torment.
>
> On the other hand, if Access is taken away from that
potentially soothing information, is that person fully
themselves and subject to the same punishment as they would have
been before they were altered for the torment?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think I understand what you're saying and I agree.
I have always since I was a small child had a problem with the
belief in hellfire as it was called then. Because when I was a
child, I felt a closeness to God and the way He presented
himself to me that his characteristics were unconditional love,
mercy, compassion, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness. The idea
that he could torment someone for eternity in hellfire was
something that I would never have believed about Him. If I had
believed that then there would have been a wall put up between
me and Him, a separation, the closeness and trust and faith I
had in Him would have been basically destroyed. Because I grew
up in a very abusive environment with people who took pleasure
in torture and other things I won't mention. So I did not view
God as being the same way as these people were. He was the
opposite of what they were. He was good and they were evil. He
was light and they were darkness. He was love and they were
hate. He was gentle and they were cruel. I thought of Him as a
very loving heavenly Father who always made me feel loved and he
gave me strength to endure what was happening to me.
But over the years as I was growing up, I went to churches and
hellfire was continually preached to the point that I began to
feel a morbid fear of God. I lost that closeness I had with Him.
A wall was put up, a barrier, that separated me from Him. He was
being misrepresented and described in human terms. The things
that humans do to each other. The way that humans think. Down
through history, and I learned about how people would be burned
at the stake. I learned from the scriptures how babies were
offered up to Baal and burned alive. Jer. 19:5 They have built
the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as
offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor
did it enter my mind....Jer. 32:35 They have built the high
places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and
daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never
commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they
should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.
I learned how people used torture on others in the most heinous
ways. And at the same time I was being taught in churches that
God was the same way as humans, just as cruel or more so than
humans because he was going to torture and torment people in
hellfire for eternity. And I battled with this and became angry
with God because I had been so conditioned to view him as being
so much worse than humans and the things that humans do to each
other.
When I was 15, I was in a foster home and there was this little
girl brought there. She was 7 years old. Her mother had burned
her hands on the stove and they were disfigured. Every night she
would have nightmares, screaming in agony while clutching her
hands together. Every night I would hear her screaming in pain
and agony while clutching her hands together. I tried to calm
and reassure her till she went back to sleep. And I started
thinking about this. I was thinking about her mother and what a
monster she was to do that to this little girl. And then the
thought occurred to me, well isn't that the way you view God
now? Do you really believe that God is as cruel as this little
girl's mother was? Is he a monster the way you view her mother?
That was a turning point for me. It really made a major
impression on me.
Then after I got married and had children, there was no way that
I would ever even consider the thought of burning my children
alive. Does that mean that I have more love and compassion than
God does? No, I do not. God is perfect and is love. His ways are
higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
He cannot be compared with humans that way. It is humans whose
ways are cruel and evil and who enjoy the idea of torture, not
all humans of course but many do.
So the walls have been torn down that separated me from God. the
barriers are gone. I now view God almost the same way as I did
when I was a child. I say almost because I can't quite recapture
that childlike trust and faith that I had in God then. But it's
close enough. I view Him as a loving Heavenly Father.
#Post#: 856--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest5
Date: September 10, 2018, 8:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes ma’am, nobody had to scare me into following Jesus to know
get to know God lol. I think it’s real easy for a lot of folks
to twist God into their own personal form of revenge on an
enemy. If they think real hard and their heart is in all the
wrong places, they can make the Bible say nearly anything they
want to justify being a horrible person themselves. People like
that are why some people think that if the Bible is true, then
God is evil. The crazy part is for me, even if God did turn out
to be “evil” (which He isn’t, we just think like humans) I don’t
think that i’d Care, because Jesus has shown me how to look past
evil and love anyway. (Granted, i’m Not real good at it yet lol)
God’s judgement is truly just, whether I know what exactly that
entails or not, i’m Not the source of all justness so i’m No
expert on the matter lol. But there is a little bit of mental
gymnastics to go through to show me that the standard
explanation of eternal torture in hellfire works on an
unbeliever who is selfless and can find comfort in the security
of those who are not sentenced to the same fate as they are.
I think a part of what made that person who they were would have
to be complete removed or changed to make the punishment work in
that situation. i’m Not sure of how that could be so and it
still be The same person/soul.
#Post#: 859--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: joechan82
Date: September 10, 2018, 9:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says.
When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in
our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I
have friends and family who are going there. But look at the
other side of it all. Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the
scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He
endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children
having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How
sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation.
This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible.
(Even the parts we cannot understand.)
#Post#: 864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest5
Date: September 10, 2018, 3:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: joechan82 link ---
>
> I hate to be this guy, but the Bible says what the Bible says.
When we prune the parts we don't like out of it, we form God in
our own image. I hate the thought of hell, especially because I
have friends and family who are going there. But look at the
other side of it all. Look at the betrayal, the mockery, the
scourging, and the crucifixion of Christ. What suffering He
endured for our sake! Why did He do that?
> I had a cousin tell me that she could not imagine her children
having a sin nature, therefore they don't need a savior. How
sad. She denies the sin nature and thus a need for salvation.
This is why I think it is crucial to believe all of the Bible.
(Even the parts we cannot understand.)
>
--- End Quote ---
The point wasn’t necessarily where I stand on eternal hellfire
(whether I believe it or not), but it was about an odd thought
concerning the popular imagery involved (I do admit that I got
tangential and put the discussion off track.) If God decided
that’s what’s gonna happen to those who aren’t of Him, then I
have no qualms about it lol. What we do have in this thread is a
neat little theological question to ask God if He takes
questions from idiots like me who like to know odd tidbits of
information.
Funny enough, as I was going about my day, I think there may be
a certain fringe state of consciousness that could apply to the
topic that is normally unobservable because it may typically be
instantaneous in the human experience. There may be a
perpetuation of a moment near a traumatically induces black out
state, but again, is that state full consciousness? It reminds
me of a dream I had of dying a few years back (I wish i could
explain it, because it was a beautiful and disturbing dream,
however that works lol)
Anyway, I thought it was a good topic, the original concept
took me all of 5 minutes to put together late last night and it
took me all day to come up with my own best guess at an answer
today. I think I make people worry about me unintentionally lol.
Thanks for playing!
#Post#: 876--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: joechan82
Date: September 11, 2018, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good topic.
#Post#: 877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: patrick jane
Date: September 11, 2018, 4:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: joechan82 link ---
>
> Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good
topic.
>
--- End Quote ---
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal.
As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone
we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep
thinking required.
#Post#: 881--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest5
Date: September 12, 2018, 9:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: joechan82 link ---
>
> Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good
topic.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks Joe, my wife pointed out to me that a lot of the reason
that I like discussing things like this and the level of comfort
and freedom I have with it is because I was never really
indoctrinated into a specific mindset. That and i’m Just weird
lol. I don’t think that I’m deeper than anyone, I just look at
things a different way than many I guess.
#Post#: 882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Looking at the “C” in an “E.C.T. Hell”
DIR By: guest5
Date: September 12, 2018, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: patrick jane link ---
>
> [quote author=joechan82 link=topic=104.msg876#msg876
date=1536701239]
> Jon, you are a lot deeper than I am. I think it is a good
topic.
>
--- End Quote ---
It is a great topic to me. It's very meaning to us is eternal.
As much as I don't want there to be eternal suffering for anyone
we have to accept what God says. How can God do that? Deep
thinking required.
[/quote]
Exactly, the question is based on a common understanding of a
doctrine that most of us believe and goes into “How in the Hell
does that work?” I understand that it’s a scary thought and
kinda depressing too, but I think about it and I just wanna know
if I can understand what goes on in that situation.
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