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#Post#: 17470--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: September 10, 2020, 11:58 pm
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[quote author=patrick jane link=topic=1027.msg17323#msg17323
date=1599456288]
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=1027.msg17314#msg17314 date=1599427349]
In what manner do you mean "the Body of Christ"? I think I know
but wish to make sure before forming a response.
[/quote]The Body Of Christ (BOC) is the church - we are the body
of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:12-27 KJV -
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the
members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is
Christ.
13 [size=14pt]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one
body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or
free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of
the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not
of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the
whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the
body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:
nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be
more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the
body together, having given more abundant honour to that part
which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the
members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with
it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in
particular.[/size]
WHO IS “THE BRIDE OF CHRIST?”
by Shawn Brasseaux
HTML https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/09/19/bride-of-christ/
Is the Church the Body of Christ “the Bride of Christ?” Many
denominationalists, and even some professing “Pauline
dispensationalists,” answer that question in the affirmative.
Beloved, let us search the Scriptures. We should not repeat what
we have heard in church all of our lives, without first
consulting the living and written Word of God. It is shocking to
learn that the Bible usually does not say what people often
presume it says.
Never once in the King James Bible do we find the term, “the
Bride of Christ.” That is a religious term, and frankly, it is a
core doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Furthermore, never
once does the Bible refer to the Church the Body of Christ as
“the Bride of Christ.” This should indicate to us that it is
nothing more than a man-made concept, a tradition of men, aimed
at deceiving and robbing us of the clarity of God’s Word, and
furthering a man-made theological system. “Beware lest any man
spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the
tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not
after Christ” (Colossians 2:8).
We do find in our King James Bible the following phrases and
terms: “the marriage supper of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7,9),
“the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” (Revelation
21:2), and “the Lamb’s wife” (Revelation 21:9). A marriage is
certainly occurring in the closing chapters of the book of the
Revelation, but who is marrying whom? We should not rip these
verses out of their contexts and fabricate the identity of the
bride and the groom (unless, of course, we seek to advance a
denominational system rather than the simple teachings of
Scripture!).
In the following Old Testament prophets, JEHOVAH God clearly
referred to the nation Israel as His wife, and He her Husband:
Jeremiah 2:32: “Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her
attire? yet my people [Israel] have forgotten me days without
number.”
Jeremiah 3:14,20: “[14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the
LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a
city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: [20]
Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so
have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith
the LORD.”
Isaiah 54:5-6: “[5] For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of
hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The
God of the whole earth shall he be called. [6] For the LORD hath
called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a
wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.”
The book of Hosea recalls how JEHOVAH married the nation Israel
when He brought her out of Egyptian slavery (and made the Old
Covenant, Law, with them, in Exodus chapter 24). Hosea also
recounts how Israel became unfaithful to Him as a wife would
cheat on her husband. Israel polluted herself with the idols of
her pagan neighbors; she willfully went after other gods.
Eventually, God had to divorce Israel; essentially, He sent her
into Gentile captivity, exemplified most fully in the book of
Lamentations, when Jerusalem was destroyed 586 B.C.
Hosea 2:15-23 summarizes how JEHOVAH will forgive Israel of her
sins, restore her, remarry her, bring her back into her homeland
(the Promised Land), where she will be His earthly people
forever: “[15] And I will give her her vineyards from thence,
and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing
there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she
came up out of the land of Egypt. [16] And it shall be at that
day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi [“my
husband”]; and shalt call me no more Baali. [17] For I will take
away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no
more be remembered by their name. [18] And in that day will I
make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with
the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground:
and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the
earth, and will make them to lie down safely. [19] And I will
betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me
in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in
mercies. [20] I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness:
and thou shalt know the LORD. [21] And it shall come to pass in
that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens,
and they shall hear the earth; [22] And the earth shall hear the
corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
[23] And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have
mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to
them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they
shall say, Thou art my God.”
Jeremiah chapter 31 explains how God will forgive Israel of her
sins: “[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house
of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with
their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring
them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.” Again,
JEHOVAH says that He was Israel’s husband.
God wanted the nation Israel to be His nation in the earth (see
Exodus 19:5-6; Psalm 37:11; Isaiah 2:1-4; Matthew 5:5;
Revelation 5:10; et al.). Israel is His earthly nation, and the
way God will rule over the earth is through redeemed Israel. The
planet Earth that Satan has polluted will one day be redeemed.
God will save the nation Israel and marry her to the land, the
Promised Land, the land of Canaan, thus marrying Himself to that
land as well.
Isaiah 62:1-5 proceeds to explain: “[1] For Zion’s sake will I
not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the
salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. [2] And the Gentiles
shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou
shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall
name. [3] Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the
LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. [4] Thou shalt
no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be
termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah [“my delight
is in her”], and thy land Beulah [“married”]: for the LORD
delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. [5] For as a
young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and
as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God
rejoice over thee.”
So, to summarize the above Old Testament passages, Jesus Christ
will return to Earth one day, to restore the nation Israel, to
redeem her and make her His earthly people (the New Covenant of
Jeremiah 31:31-34, Romans 11:26-29, Hebrews 8:8-13, and Hebrews
10:15-17). At that time, JEHOVAH God will fulfill the Abrahamic
Covenant (Genesis 12:1-3) to evangelize Gentiles through Israel,
the Palestinian Covenant (Genesis 15:18-21) to give Israel her
land, and the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:12-16) to give Israel
her literal, physical, visible kingdom after David’s royal
bloodline. The way Jesus Christ will restore Earth unto Himself
is by using the nation Israel in her kingdom (called the
“1000-year reign,” “Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ,” “kingdom
of heaven,” to name a few titles). These passages interpret the
marriage situation in the book of the Revelation (the verses we
mentioned at the beginning of this study). Let us return to
these verses in Revelation and comment on them in light of what
we read from the Old Testament prophets. Notice how that, rather
than fabricating something to explain Revelation’s “marriage”
passages, we have consulted what God wrote centuries prior, so
we are on solid footing when we explain John’s words in
Revelation!
Please read Revelation 19:7-9: “[7] Let us be glad and rejoice,
and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and his wife hath made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted
that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for
the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [9] And he saith
unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the
marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the
true sayings of God.”
Considering the Old Testament prophets’ words about Israel
waiting for JEHOVAH to remarry her, who would most likely be the
“wife” of the Lamb here in Revelation? All we have to do is
remember what God’s Word said in other books, and the answer
becomes clear. The next several verses discuss Jesus Christ
returning to planet Earth, fighting Israel’s enemies; the
following chapters elaborate on Jesus Christ reigning on the
Earth with the nation Israel. The “saints” of Revelation 19:8
would be those believing Jews that survived the seven-year
Tribulation period; they will form redeemed Israel, the Jews who
will inherit the covenants and promises made to Israel’s
patriarchs through the Old Testament. Friends, the book of the
Revelation has nothing to do with us. It was written by John, an
apostle of Israel (Revelation 1:1; cf. Galatians 2:9), and the
book of the Revelation is to and about Israel: it does not
concern us.
In Revelation 21:1-4,9-10 we read: “[1] And I saw a new heaven
and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were
passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the
holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a
great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God
is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his
people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there
shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither
shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed
away. [9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which
had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked
with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the
Lamb’s wife. [10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a
great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy
Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,…”
If the Bible says, “I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s
wife,” and the next vision is that of “that great city, the holy
Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,” what would be the
“Lamb’s wife” here? It would the New Jerusalem, the Holy
Jerusalem, the Jerusalem currently in heaven (Hebrews 12:18-24)
that will come down to Earth; it was this heavenly Jerusalem
that Abraham and the other Old Testament saints anticipated
(Hebrews 11:10,16,39,40). Overall, the idea of the marriage
between JEHOVAH and Israel is actually Him marrying Israel to
the land and thus marrying Himself to her land. It is not
difficult to understand if we are open to God’s Word correcting
our distorted views courtesy of religious tradition.
THREE COMMON OBJECTIONS ANSWERED
At this point, three common objections are raised. The first is,
“Did not Paul liken our relationship to Jesus Christ as a wife
married to her husband, in Ephesians chapter 5?” The second,
“Did not Paul say that we were married to Jesus Christ in Romans
chapter 7?” The third, “Did not Paul say that we need to be a
pure virgin for Jesus Christ in 2 Corinthians chapter 11?” We
believe the Bible has answers to these questions, and we would
be more than eager to share those verses. However, we must be
mindful not to read something into the Bible text (which is what
denominationalists are trained to do).
Ephesians 5:25-33 says: “[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [26] That
he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by
the word, [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious
church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that
it should be holy and without blemish. [28] So ought men to love
their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth
himself. [29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but
nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: [30]
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and
shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and
the church. [33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular
so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she
reverence her husband.”
Indeed, the Bible does teach that the marriage relationship
between the husband and his wife should reflect and resemble,
the loving, tender, selfless union between the Lord Jesus Christ
(our Head; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Colossians 2:19) and
us (His Body; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13,27; Ephesians 1:22-23;
Colossians 1:24). However, we never read in the above passage
that we are Jesus Christ’s “wife” or His “bride.” We have
already seen the Scriptures’ testimony that Israel is the wife
of JEHOVAH (the Lord Jesus Christ)—does JEHOVAH have two wives
or does He have one? The Bible calls Israel JEHOVAH’S “wife,”
but it never calls us His wife; if words mean anything (and we
have no denominational agenda to promote), we conclude that we
are not JEHOVAH’S wife but rather that Israel is His wife.
Ephesians chapter 5 is describing how marriage is designed to
function, and the way to understand the marriage relationship is
to see how Jesus Christ and His Body (us) interact with each
other—the respective roles, the attitudes of each toward one
another, et cetera.
Romans 7:1-4 says: “[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to
them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a
man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an
husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth;
but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her
husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be
married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but
if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she
is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4]
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even
to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God.”
Certainly, Romans 7:4 says that we are “married” (present tense)
to Jesus Christ. In that case, Revelation would certainly not
apply to us; Revelation describes a future marriage! The Church
the Body of Christ is certainly joined (“married”) to Jesus
Christ—otherwise, the members of the Body would not be saved
unto eternal life! All Romans chapter 7 is discussing is how we
are free from the Law, dead to the law of sin and dead works,
not bound to live the Christian life in our flesh and energy. We
are joined to Jesus Christ, and it is His life, not our life,
His performance, not our performance (further discussed in
chapter 8). To use this passage to teach that we are the “Bride
of Christ” is to read something into the text. Romans chapter 7
is not designed to teach marriage in the Dispensation of
Grace—that would be 1 Corinthians chapter 7.
In 2 Corinthians 11:1-4, we read: “[1] Would to God ye could
bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. [2]
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have
espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste
virgin to Christ. [3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the
serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should
be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [4] For if
he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not
preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not
received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye
might well bear with him.”
Dear friends, here again, we read no terminology about us being
the “Bride of Christ.” What Paul is doing in verse 2 is using a
simile, likening us to being spiritually (doctrinally) pure as a
chaste virgin would be sexually pure. False teachers had crept
into Corinth, and throughout this chapter (11), we read about
how the Corinthians enjoyed being misled. Paul warned them that
he was jealous over them with a godly jealousy—he did not want
some false religious system to corrupt them. He wanted them to
abandon and avoid false religion (see 2 Corinthians 6:14-18). In
the above verses, we read how Satan would use the same tactics
he used to mislead Eve, to mislead us. Satan would quote Bible,
but misquote it, ignoring the dispensational layout (see Psalm
91:11-12; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10-11). The Devil would cause us
to follow “another Jesus” (as in His earthly ministry; 2
Corinthians 5:16) instead of following the Jesus Christ whom
Paul preached (His heavenly ministry, “Jesus Christ according to
the revelation of the mystery;” Romans 16:25). Satan would cause
us to follow “another spirit” (as in the “spirit of bondage,”
law; Romans 8:15; Galatians 5:1-5) and ignore the spirit that
Paul preached (grace; Romans 6:14-15). The Devil would cause us
to follow “another gospel” (as in the Gospel of the Kingdom;
Matthew 9:35; cf. Matthew 4:17; Matthew 10:5-7) but to ignore
the Gospel of Grace that Paul preached (Acts 20:24; Romans 2:16;
Galatians 2:2; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The Church the Body of
Christ is in such shambles doctrinally today, in such confusion,
because it has allowed Satan and his policy of evil (religious
tradition) to corrupt them. Most Christians today are not
“rightly dividing the word of truth” as 2 Timothy 2:15 says;
they are mixing the dispensations in God’s Word and making Bible
study burdensome. I know; I used to be a part of that system
myself!
CONCLUSION
The Bible never calls the Body of Christ “the Bride of Christ”
(that is religious tradition, and, beloved, it will profit us
nothing in eternity). To use a concept that relates exclusively
to Israel and use it to apply to us, is to place ourselves on a
slippery slope of confusing ourselves with Israel, and we run
the risk of falling into the trap of the damnable doctrine of
“Replacement Theology!” (See our related study at the end of
this article.)
However, the Bible does say that Jesus Christ will marry
someone. This is what we want to focus on; we ignore the
religious tradition. Believing Jews who will survive the
seven-year Tribulation, Daniel’s 70th week, will stand on Earth
and see Jesus Christ return at His Second Coming (see Zechariah
12:10 and Zechariah 13:8-9). These believing Jews will be
married to Jesus Christ (JEHOVAH God the Son in the flesh) at
His Second Coming—Revelation 19:7 says, “the marriage of the
Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.” (We deal
with the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” in another study; see the
link at the end of this article.)
According to Revelation 21:9-10, the “Lamb’s wife” is the New
Jerusalem, the Heavenly Jerusalem—Israel’s redeemed capital
city, and her Promised Land—which will come down from heaven and
land on Earth. By marrying the nation Israel, the Lord Jesus
Christ (the JEHOVAH of the Old Testament) will marry Himself to
her land, the Promised Land. These are the concepts being
advanced regarding the marriage of Revelation chapters 19 and
21. We can either believe the testimony of the Scriptures, or we
can continue with our church tradition. I prefer to believe God,
and let His critics be the liars (Romans 3:4). You?
[/quote]
***
First of all, Mark you had a very good post. kudos
I came back to the original question and from what I understand
it is:
"WHO IS “THE BRIDE OF CHRIST?” and by extension, " What is "the
Church"?
Let me answer PJ's first and then Mark I would like to speak to
the "doctrine Journal" you posted.
PJ. Simply The Bride of Christ is the "Body of Christ" Yes, the
Bride of Christ is not mentioned by these words yet it is still
in the Bible. In 2Cor 11:21 “For I am jealous over you with
godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I
may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” It appears in
this scripture that God, the Father is the one speaking to Paul.
This is in alignment with the ancient Jewish wedding. We can
discuss this if needed but the Bible is two stories of two
marriages, God, The Father to the Israel Nation and Jesus to the
members of His Spiritual Church.
We already know the "church" is the one Jesus Christ spoke
about in Mat 16:18.."And I say also unto thee, That thou art
Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates
of hell shall not prevail against it.". contrary to many, the
"rock" is Jesus Not Peter (Psa 28:1). Peter's name means
stone...a minute difference but a difference none the less.
Psa 28:1[[A Psalm of David.]] " Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my
rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I
become like them that go down into the pit."
Thus, the Church is a spiritual (only) church. I say this as
there is one if not several more brick and mortar churches that
make the claim they are this church Jesus made (i.e. "Church of
Christ"). Of, course this is a falsehood.
We also know that those in His Church consist of both Jews and
Gentiles who are saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ by
faith and faith alone. They also are the same ones who have
received the Holy Spirit following their Justification.
The biggest question is when did the Church begin. Mark, the
Journal you submitted remarks:
" The first is God explicitly stated through the apostle Paul
that the Church, the Body of Christ, was a “secret,”
(μυστήριον). This
presents a serious problem for the traditional view because Paul
made this declaration long after Pentecost." The traditional
view being the Church started in Acts 2.
It further states " No Biblical evidence exists to support the
view that anyone at Pentecost recognized that the Church, i.e.,
the Body of Christ, had come into existence.".
Thus, nobody is saved unless they know about this spiritual
Church with which they will be part of? Don’t think that was
one of the requirements for justification.
The thousands that had received justification and the Holy
Spirit (mostly all Jewish) before Paul announced the secret are
part of another spiritual church. Who made this church?
What about all the Jews that receive justification after Paul
announces His secret? I thought Jew and Gentiles were alike yet
we have a group of people whose Soteriology places these saved
Jews into another spiritual church.
And the third point " But Paul declared the Church was that
organism in which Jew and Gentile are equal. Peter obviously did
not know this else he would have addressed Gentiles."
[i]In Acts 2:38, Jesus had already told Peter that the baptism
was not by immersion but rather by “in the name of Jesus
Christ”.
In Acts 2:41, three thousand Jewish souls received the Holy
Spirit and in Acts 10:45-48 where the first gentile was
justified.
Personally, anything less than including Jew and Gentile into
the spiritual Church of Jesus Christ is Anti-semitism pure and
simple.
If the Beginning of His Church is in “Mid Acts vs Acts 2”
somewhere and it includes all who believe in Jesus Christ
including Jew and Gentile alike, it really does not matter when
it started.
Because it was mystery does not mean the church does not accept
anyone who receive justification.
Let me add something else for in the article P.J.posted, the
author had a problem believing the Wedding of Jesus with His
Bride (the Church). The Jewish traditions established by GOD may
be ignored by both Jewish and Gentile but GOD does not forget
it. In fact, the Jewish Wedding Idiom with which Jesus Christ
will marry His Bride, connects both OT and NT intimately.
1. “Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and
indeed bear with me. [2] For I am jealous over you with godly
jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may
present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. “
Dear friends, here again, we read no terminology about us being
the “Bride of Christ.” What Paul is doing in verse 2 is using a
simile, likening us to being spiritually (doctrinally) pure as a
chaste virgin would be sexually pure.
In my opinion, the terminology is overwhelming reading it
literally and historically. The whole setup is an idiom where
Bride of course is not a virgin but under a Jewish Priest could
not marry a divorced woman. Thus, Jesus died for the sins of the
(body of Christ) cleansed them from them forever. The picture
here is the Body of Christ when take to heaven and glorified,
they will be as a virgin.
For GOD cannot stand sin and will not accept it in heaven. Thus,
His grace cleanses the body and soul for that event. All saints
will be as chaste virgins but only those in the Church will be
His Body, to become His Bride.
Blade
#Post#: 17481--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest116 Date: September 12, 2020, 2:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To get back to the Discourse.
Let me go a little further into some foundational information
about Matthew before I return to an exam of the Second
Discourse. I chose to start with the second discourse as the
first discourse is the Sermon on the mount and has so many
books, articles, and viewpoints on it I felt in fairness to the
other four to leave it to the last.
All four of the Gospels' original manuscripts are considered
written anonymously written. This does not mean that Matthew
was not written by Apostle Matthew, it means there is no valid
proof one way or another. The issue is most of the documents
that were taught from were written for a specific church
audience. That audience would know the author, so the name of
the author was not part of the manuscript. Logic tells you
though if they were going to attribute this Gospel to any
Apostle they could and most likely would have picked one of the
better known of the twelve. Instead, it is attributed to a
former tax collector apostle that would be barely known without
this Gospel. Accordingly, you can imagine how in our present
time authorship of this as well as the other three Gospels is
disputed.
The records show that the first known teaching from Matthew took
place in Heirapolis Asia Minor in or about 135 CE by Bishop
Papias. Also, there is a history of this Gospel being used in
Lyons in Gaul in 175 CE by Bishop Irenaeus. One thing you will
find as you read Matthew is a lot of it is borrowed from Mark or
parallels Mark. This however presents me with issues as Mark
was not an apostle and did not walk with Jesus as Matthew had.
There is no reason for Matthew to borrow anything from Mark.
But, then Mark himself did rely extensively on the testimony and
teachings of Peter. In a way by borrowing some of his
information from Mark, Matthew just added even more credibility
to his Gospel. Enough credibility it was later selected as one
of four Gospel to be made canonical.
What is the book of Matthew then? It is the book of the
Kingdom. It is the story of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded by
the apostle Matthew as an eyewitness to his life. It is the
compelling story as witnessed by Matthew of Jesus as the
Messiah. It is the promise of true peace and deliverance to both
Jew and Gentile alike. In a nutshell that is Matthew.
Matthew is set apart from the rest of the Gospels as it spent
the majority of the book on the five discourses. While these
are not studied in depth beyond the sermon on the mount, they
are none the less important to read and understand all five.
Matthew 1 is the genealogy of Jesus. It reads very much as
Genesis reads. It was very important to the Jews of that era to
have a record of ancestry. It was so important the church as
well as the family’s kept extensive records of who begot who.
This also notes the virgin birth and follows other prophecies as
found in the Old Testament.
So now we know a little more about the authorship and we have
Jesus of Nazareth born and his linage. Let us now look at the
second discourse. The general overview is this discourse
focuses on the disciple’s mission to Israel, preparations for a
worldwide mission among the Gentiles, and the characteristics
that Jesus’ disciples would need to embody as they carry out
these missions.
Check back as I start the break down of the scripture itself.
All the foundation has been laid.
I will gladly accept any comments and questions.
#Post#: 17483--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: September 12, 2020, 10:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=1027.msg17481#msg17481 date=1599895266]
To get back to the Discourse.
Let me go a little further into some foundational information
about Matthew before I return to an exam of the Second
Discourse. I chose to start with the second discourse as the
first discourse is the Sermon on the mount and has so many
books, articles, and viewpoints on it I felt in fairness to the
other four to leave it to the last.
All four of the Gospels' original manuscripts are considered
written anonymously written. This does not mean that Matthew
was not written by Apostle Matthew, it means there is no valid
proof one way or another. The issue is most of the documents
that were taught from were written for a specific church
audience. That audience would know the author, so the name of
the author was not part of the manuscript. Logic tells you
though if they were going to attribute this Gospel to any
Apostle they could and most likely would have picked one of the
better known of the twelve. Instead, it is attributed to a
former tax collector apostle that would be barely known without
this Gospel. Accordingly, you can imagine how in our present
time authorship of this as well as the other three Gospels is
disputed.
The records show that the first known teaching from Matthew took
place in Heirapolis Asia Minor in or about 135 CE by Bishop
Papias. Also, there is a history of this Gospel being used in
Lyons in Gaul in 175 CE by Bishop Irenaeus. One thing you will
find as you read Matthew is a lot of it is borrowed from Mark or
parallels Mark. This however presents me with issues as Mark
was not an apostle and did not walk with Jesus as Matthew had.
There is no reason for Matthew to borrow anything from Mark.
But, then Mark himself did rely extensively on the testimony and
teachings of Peter. In a way by borrowing some of his
information from Mark, Matthew just added even more credibility
to his Gospel. Enough credibility it was later selected as one
of four Gospel to be made canonical.
What is the book of Matthew then? It is the book of the
Kingdom. It is the story of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded by
the apostle Matthew as an eyewitness to his life. It is the
compelling story as witnessed by Matthew of Jesus as the
Messiah. It is the promise of true peace and deliverance to both
Jew and Gentile alike. In a nutshell that is Matthew.
Matthew is set apart from the rest of the Gospels as it spent
the majority of the book on the five discourses. While these
are not studied in depth beyond the sermon on the mount, they
are none the less important to read and understand all five.
Matthew 1 is the genealogy of Jesus. It reads very much as
Genesis reads. It was very important to the Jews of that era to
have a record of ancestry. It was so important the church as
well as the family’s kept extensive records of who begot who.
This also notes the virgin birth and follows other prophecies as
found in the Old Testament.
So now we know a little more about the authorship and we have
Jesus of Nazareth born and his linage. Let us now look at the
second discourse. The general overview is this discourse
focuses on the disciple’s mission to Israel, preparations for a
worldwide mission among the Gentiles, and the characteristics
that Jesus’ disciples would need to embody as they carry out
these missions.
Check back as I start the break down of the scripture itself.
All the foundation has been laid.
I will gladly accept any comments and questions.
[/quote]
Mark, you said:"All four of the Gospels' original manuscripts
are considered written anonymously written. "
I was and am under the impression that all books of the Bible
have been autographed with the exception of Hebrews of which
there is some controversy as to who wrote it.
Other than this, I will have to study this post further
Blade
#Post#: 17487--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest116 Date: September 12, 2020, 12:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It is my understand from purely academically that while they are
attribute to specific people, the actually authorship is still
considered anonymously. Like I tried to explain Matthew is
attributed to him as he was teaching this Gospel and it is more
likely than not he also wrote it and there really is his Gospel.
Same with the others. If I remember right, and please correct
me if I am wrong, Mark is the only one of the Gospel that
actually has solid evidence that Mark wrote it. The issue
always is with most of the Canaoical books is who really author
them, Besides Pauls work.
Like I stated original manuscripts were general written for a
specific audienc/churrch. Those hearing the presenter/author
knew who he was and that he was author. The issue came when the
manuscript was copied and spread, they did not add "Written By"
to the manuscripts. I sure the wish the would have as 2000
years of debating authorship would not have happened and
studying scriptures. Just my humble opinion on part of this.
#Post#: 17604--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: patrick jane Date: September 15, 2020, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Intermission: Good Video
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wd2mg1bqpI
#Post#: 17615--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: September 15, 2020, 8:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=1027.msg17487#msg17487 date=1599933564]
It is my understand from purely academically that while they are
attribute to specific people, the actually authorship is still
considered anonymously. Like I tried to explain Matthew is
attributed to him as he was teaching this Gospel and it is more
likely than not he also wrote it and there really is his Gospel.
Same with the others. If I remember right, and please correct
me if I am wrong, Mark is the only one of the Gospel that
actually has solid evidence that Mark wrote it. The issue
always is with most of the Canaoical books is who really author
them, Besides Pauls work.
Like I stated original manuscripts were general written for a
specific audienc/churrch. Those hearing the presenter/author
knew who he was and that he was author. The issue came when the
manuscript was copied and spread, they did not add "Written By"
to the manuscripts. I sure the wish the would have as 2000
years of debating authorship would not have happened and
studying scriptures. Just my humble opinion on part of this.
[/quote]
I don't have a problem with it either way. Since I totally
believe that Jesus, our Lord and savior authored the entire
bible, I really have no doubt that Matthew did indeed pen it for
Him. I have no doubt that Jesus made sure you and I got His word
which HE authored and not simple words form man.
Matthew was a Jew, a tax collector, one who could write in
shorthand. His gospel shows us Jesus as a Jew. Mark shows Jesus
as the suffering servant, Luke a doctor brings us Jesus as a man
and John, the Beloved John, brings us Jesus as GOD. Each Gospel
is different because of these viewpoints of each man. Therefore,
the genealogy of Matthew in chapter 1 comes from the viewpoint
from Abraham down. Mark had none and Luke brought the genealogy
from man (Adam) and John in John 1:1-2 brings us God's genealogy
from eternity past.
Mark, another little tidbit is that all of these writers had
words exclusively that appeared in their gospels. while it is a
study all it own, these prove that a higher being, Jesus was the
author. Like the seven churches in Revelation, each of these
writers were specifically picked by Jesus for a reason and we
see this come out reading their gospels through the eyes of a
Jewish Rabbi.
Blade
#Post#: 17619--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest116 Date: September 15, 2020, 8:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Fully agree with everything you said. So wonderfully put. I
may borrow it with permission for a white paper I am trying to
write.
#Post#: 17630--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest8 Date: September 16, 2020, 12:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chaplain Mark Schmidt
link=topic=1027.msg17619#msg17619 date=1600221402]
Fully agree with everything you said. So wonderfully put. I
may borrow it with permission for a white paper I am trying to
write.
[/quote]
of course, anything I write is yours if you deem it fit.
Thanks
Blade
#Post#: 17631--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest116 Date: September 16, 2020, 3:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you
#Post#: 17661--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Five Discourses of Jesus
By: guest116 Date: September 16, 2020, 11:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Lets dive into the actual discourse now.
I am going to follow my initial break out. The first was 10:1,
it is the choosing and empowering opening. It states as
follows, from KJV
10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he
gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and
to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Jesus calls his twelve disciples to him; this strikes me as an
initial answer to a prayer for the Lord to send workers. I am
not sure if it was to send him workers or just generally. If
you go back to Matthew 9:38 it seems more that he is asking the
Lord to send his disciples out into the harvest and the harvest
being the masses of people coming to his teachings. This also
made me reflect on the fact he had twelve disciples and there
were also twelve tribes of Israel, one disciple per tribe. I am
thinking the plan was each was picked for a specific tribe.
Very symbolic of the continuity of God’s plan for salvation.
The second part of this simple sentence is where he tells them
what he is empowering them to do in God’s name and for God.
This of being one of these twelve that had followed Jesus and
you are now getting told what gifts will be theirs; to help them
teach and spread the words.
My personal thought on this is they just found out they have
moved from mere disciples to his Apostles. Amazing how this one
sentence how so much power to it.
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