00:00:00 --- log: started retro/14.01.17
02:50:52 --- join: luptenschteiner (~User@ppp103-111.static.internode.on.net) joined #retro
02:50:52 --- quit: luptenschteiner (Changing host)
02:50:52 --- join: luptenschteiner (~User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #retro
02:51:35 --- quit: probonono (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:54:51 --- quit: luptenschteiner (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:55:22 --- join: luptenschteiner (~User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #retro
05:23:19 --- quit: Sgeo (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:11:01 --- quit: harrison (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
08:50:12 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro
09:19:32 --- join: harrison___ (~quassel@li89-226.members.linode.com) joined #retro
09:44:03 <erider> hello folks 
09:44:19 <tangentstorm> hi erider 
09:44:42 <erider> hey tangentstorm did you try q 
09:45:20 <tangentstorm> i know what it is but i've never tried it
09:45:35 <erider> or not q but joy 
09:46:00 <tangentstorm> i know what that is too, and have also never tried it. :) 
09:46:14 <tangentstorm> although retro has most of the combinators from joy i think
09:46:32 <tangentstorm> why? have you tried it?
09:46:45 <erider> something readable I was suggesting :-) 
09:49:18 * tangentstorm just finally deciphered http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/d332.htm
09:49:48 <tangentstorm> j is tough to read at first, but once you push through it, you can do some really cool stuff
09:50:09 <tangentstorm> forth and retro too, though :)
09:50:17 <erider> maybe 
09:50:42 <tangentstorm> i've been struggling to find a way to bootstrap a parsing system for a long time
09:51:11 <erider> but I think the search for most folks is to find readable code that is way people complain so much about comments 
09:51:49 <erider> why* 
09:52:44 <tangentstorm> <shrug> it's no different than math notation 
09:53:07 <erider> I would say that was the main reason for compiler/translator/interpreter development 
09:53:57 <tangentstorm> hrm. maybe. i don't know. when i first saw regular expressions they looked like someone had pounded on the keyboard
09:54:01 <tangentstorm> now everybody uses them.
09:54:36 <erider> true 
09:55:32 <erider> but a lot of the symbol style programming languages are made for obfuscation reasons  
09:55:33 <tangentstorm> i do think j would be more readable if it executed left to right like forth though.
09:55:56 <tangentstorm> that isn't the idea behind j at all.
09:56:06 <erider> its not?
09:56:43 <tangentstorm> no, it's not meant to be a goofy language like the ones on esolang... it's actually meant to be used for doing things :)
09:57:01 <tangentstorm> it's just different from what you're used to is all
09:57:44 <erider>  Unlambda is one of those esolang 
09:57:58 <tangentstorm> actually, a tremendous amount of thought went into the choices for each character. they did a pretty amazing job of conveying meaning given only the ascii character set.
09:58:01 <tangentstorm> yeah
09:58:21 <erider> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/schani/oldstuff/index.html#schemeinunlambda
09:58:46 <erider> first line say Unlambda is an obfuscated functional programming language.
09:58:58 <tangentstorm> yeah. 
09:59:36 <tangentstorm> those are meant for entertainment basically... like solving a puzzle :)
10:00:05 <tangentstorm> j actually feels like solving a puzzle too but once you get the hang of it you can do some pretty wild things with just a few characters
10:00:47 <tangentstorm> http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm  <- "notation as a tool of thought", a paper by the author of APL (and later J)
10:01:25 <erider> maybe :-0
10:02:15 <erider> its esoteric 
10:03:42 <tangentstorm> to each his own, i guess :)
10:06:26 <erider> :-) 
10:09:49 <dkordic> Don't understand "bootstrap a parsing system".  Why?  
10:23:17 <tangentstorm> i want to make a programming course
10:24:10 <tangentstorm> parsing isn't hard but there's usually a ton of code involved
10:25:43 <tangentstorm> by bootstrapping i meant find a way to get a parser into the system without already having a parser to explain the syntax
10:48:57 <dkordic> Syntax of what?  parser language and/or implementation language?  
10:51:49 <tangentstorm> both, either :)
10:52:00 <tangentstorm> you want to parse something. how do you describe the parser?
10:52:03 <tangentstorm> you need some other language.
10:52:12 <tangentstorm> how do you describe that language?
10:52:17 <tangentstorm> and so on
10:54:25 <tangentstorm> i'm learning now how to construct a state transition table by hand
10:55:08 <tangentstorm> with the idea of just having an array/table of numbers representing the states of the parser
10:57:01 <tangentstorm> (and what to do in each state for any given input character)
11:08:34 <erider> tangentstorm: is that a token list? 
11:09:01 <tangentstorm> what do you mean?
11:10:36 <dkordic> :)
11:12:43 <tangentstorm> erider: if your tokens all (length <= 4) in ascii you could just use ngaro's 32-bit cells to hold the whole token.
11:13:57 <tangentstorm> you could probably cram 5 or 6 characters in if you dropped control characters and uppercase and utf-8
11:14:18 <tangentstorm> like colorforth does
11:14:55 <erider> your table I was asking about 
11:16:34 <tangentstorm> oh, no. the table would be used to turn input into tokens but it doesn't actually contain any tokens. just state transitions
11:17:03 <tangentstorm> so like... say you want to group letters, symbols, numbers, and spaces.
11:18:17 <tangentstorm> so  'ab$c1 .. 23'  becomes   'ab', '$', 'c', '1', ' ', '..', ' ', '23'
11:19:29 <tangentstorm> you'd have to know that seeing an 'a' puts you in the 'looking at letters' state, and that 'b' just keeps you in that same state, but '$' moves you into the symbol state... 
11:19:34 <tangentstorm> and so on
11:20:25 <tangentstorm> but then maybe you also allow double quotes to make strings, so that 'ab$c' gets split up but '"ab$c"' doesn't
11:21:13 <tangentstorm> so the '"' puts you in the 'string' state and nothing takes you out of it except another '"'
11:21:24 <tangentstorm> basically just make a table of all those rules
12:00:35 --- quit: tangentstorm (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2)
12:06:37 --- join: heiz (bc8622f7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.134.34.247) joined #retro
12:14:36 <heiz> Hi! It may be offtopic but I want discuss relationship between retro and parable languages. They are both concativative language and as I see some work to convert retro syntax to parable is doing. Can someone clarify the motivation to start parable project? What is the problem with retro?
12:56:13 --- quit: heiz (Quit: Page closed)
12:56:33 <erider> well he left  
12:56:53 <erider>  I had an answer 
16:25:50 --- join: Sgeo (~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #retro
19:21:38 <saper> erider: go ahead, that's interesting anyway, it might be even a FAQ
19:24:25 <erider> crc made the project to satisfy his own needs it just turns out to be useful for others as well 
22:40:51 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection)
22:55:02 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #retro
23:20:56 --- nick: luptenschteiner -> probonono
23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/14.01.17