00:00:00 --- log: started retro/13.05.14
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08:34:25 <sirdancealo2> o/
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13:41:30 <tangentstorm> hey sirdancealo2 
13:41:38 <sirdancealo2> o/
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13:52:12 <Mat2> hi @ all
13:53:55 <Mat2> crc: After reading your blog, how will you seperate compilation from the listener ?
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14:36:28 <tangentstorm> ooh compilation what now?
14:36:35 <tangentstorm> to the blog!
14:36:46 <Mat2> hi tangentstorm
14:36:51 <tangentstorm> heya Mat2 
14:37:08 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2 is compiling a list of crazy people like us.
14:37:35 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2: Mat2 is making a language called saiwa and his own computer on which to run it
14:38:06 <sirdancealo2> yyyyyyyyyyyy..no
14:38:14 <sirdancealo2> im afraid he wont qualify
14:39:18 <Mat2> what are the qualification rules ?
14:39:56 <sirdancealo2> it must strive for high-level programming
14:40:25 <tangentstorm> hrm. that's a matter of point of view i guess.
14:40:52 <tangentstorm> saiwa isn't specific to that one computer... it'll run anywhere.
14:41:03 <tangentstorm> i mean it's just a general purpose language.
14:41:23 <tangentstorm> but he's optimized the heck out of it for intel/amd at the moment and will probably do the same for his own processor.
14:42:10 <Mat2> saiwa is a functional system-programming language with features like automatical parallelisation and a transzendental type-system
14:43:02 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2: crc has two (active) languages: retro and parable
14:43:11 <tangentstorm> http://rx-core.org/parable/
14:43:43 <Mat2> because rooted in forth you can freely implement all kind of higher-level abstractions without limitations
14:44:22 <tangentstorm> more like a smooth gradient than fixed levels :)
14:44:51 <tangentstorm> forth just sort of starts at the bottom and lets you work up.
14:45:10 <tangentstorm> there are also lisps that let you start at the "top" and work down... picolisp springs to mind.
14:46:03 <Mat2> yes, the same can be written about all concatentative programming languages - it is a common design feature
14:46:27 <sirdancealo2> nice to meet you guys:)
14:46:41 <sirdancealo2> show me a language that does not let you work up
14:48:24 <sirdancealo2> or..is letting you work up a killer feature? im looking for stuff that will change my computing experience
14:48:36 <sirdancealo2> tangentstorm, you literate programming stuff is impressive, i like it
14:48:48 <sirdancealo2> because it is oriented towards people
14:49:03 <Mat2> imperative languages are limited in there abstractions because of a fixed syntax where in concatentative languages you are able program though writing a language which implicitly solves your problem
14:49:10 <sirdancealo2> another python/ruby/ocaml mix? not so much
14:50:01 <Mat2> (and all possible kind of related problems without writing one extra-line of code)
14:50:15 <Mat2> try that with C++
14:50:23 <Mat2> you can't
14:52:12 <tangentstorm> no
14:52:46 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2: forth doesn't have any fixed syntax so you are not limited by what the language designer intended originally.
14:55:01 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2: by default it just executes each token from the input stream... but when you define the procedure to call for a token, you're free to call the parser and tokenizer recursively.
14:55:52 <tangentstorm> the main differences between forths are the conventions...
14:55:57 <sirdancealo2> how will you know what to abstract and what to keep below and build upon, in your program?
14:56:07 <tangentstorm> i don't know.
14:56:18 <tangentstorm> how do you know which colors of paint to put on a canvas?
14:56:28 <sirdancealo2> the user-definable ones?
14:56:46 <tangentstorm> everything is user definiable
14:57:13 <sirdancealo2> everything is programmer-definable
14:57:23 <tangentstorm> sirdancealo2: go download retro :)
14:59:01 <tangentstorm> there's no difference in retro  between a user of the application and the programmer.
14:59:21 <tangentstorm> the interface to your program is a set of words that you type in...
14:59:45 <Mat2> one example: Implementing an interpreter in C or C++ is limited by the syntactical side-effects of its switch statement (if you want to code a efficient one). Because this feature was not designed for efficient interpreters the resulting machine-code will suffer from range checks, which are syntactical needed but in this scenario obsolete. This resulting in bad performance. In retro you can extend the language with a new syntax for efficien
14:59:46 <Mat2> tly abstracting this problem. Because the compiler is extensible the generated code can be higly effective
15:02:01 <sirdancealo2> my mom will not send e-mails from a forth stack, nor will she appreciate the optimizability of the switch statement for implementing an interpreter
15:02:44 <sirdancealo2> and a guy who knows how to desing and test the hell out of a great clicky interface for sending e-mails will ...neither
15:03:07 <Mat2> she will if the ressource demands of your application hinders her experience. With conventional operating-systems that is easily approacheable
15:03:17 <tangentstorm> the clicky interface can just send words to the inner interpreter though.
15:03:35 <Mat2> that's a non-argument
15:03:40 <tangentstorm> each menu item or button or gesture can just map to a word.
15:05:29 <sirdancealo2> its fun but you guys shouldnt put up with my mood at the moment!
15:05:41 <sirdancealo2> im terribly grumpy
15:05:54 <tangentstorm> probably from using c :)
15:06:06 <Mat2> *lol*
15:06:15 <sirdancealo2> python
15:06:30 <sirdancealo2> that idiot doesnt understand OOP
15:06:35 <tangentstorm> there's a retro vm implementation in ptyhon
15:06:36 <sirdancealo2> self. self. self. self. self. self. self. self. 
15:07:13 <tangentstorm> also the tests for the vm opcodes are in python (and then once you trust the vm, the rest of the tests are in retro)
15:08:05 <Mat2> do you know, Phyton's origin was a Basic dialect called ABC ?
15:08:34 <sirdancealo2> i think i read it somewhere
15:08:41 <tangentstorm> i heard once that 2 out of 3 people can't spell python :)
15:08:52 <Mat2> it was the system-envirionment of Luxors ABC series (a Swedish company)
15:09:22 <Mat2> very successful because it was one of the fastest and efficient basic system for 8-bit computers
15:09:51 <Mat2> this system was initially written in Forth !
15:10:23 <Mat2> (I mean the whole language and operating system)
15:12:08 <tangentstorm> didn't know any of that
15:14:36 <Mat2> the ABC language then was inspired from this experiences
15:14:49 <Mat2> so ABC Basic -> ABC -> Phyton
15:17:49 <Mat2> like (Algol ->) BCPL -> (Algol ->) B -> (Algol  ->) C
15:20:08 <Mat2> get some sleep, ciao
15:20:11 <sirdancealo2> gn
15:20:25 <tangentstorm> seeya Mat2 
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/13.05.14