00:00:00 --- log: started retro/13.04.11
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14:41:40 <crcx> good evening
14:42:45 <tangentstorm> hey crcx !
14:44:56 <crcx> what's up?
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14:47:06 <tangentstorm> not much.. working on tetris in pascal with the retroterm thing
14:47:32 <tangentstorm> http://i.imgur.com/gkmb9Iu.png <- canvas device for retro in pascal
14:47:58 <tangentstorm> things calming down at work for you?
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14:54:00 <crcx> not quite yet. we are migrating data tomorrow and saturday and go live with the new system on monday
14:54:20 <crcx> been working late on training other workers and looking for bugs :)
14:55:03 <crcx> I still need to get the pascal compiler setup 
14:55:51 <tangentstorm> i should package up an executable at some point.
14:56:18 <crcx> I've done some work on parable; data types are now recognized by bytecodes and things work as expected now.
14:56:19 <tangentstorm> in theory it can compile to ios but i have no idea how to make that happen.
14:56:45 <tangentstorm> nice :)
14:57:06 <crcx> I can do things like   'hello ' 'world' +   and get a  'hello world'  string, or   'HELLO' to-lowercase  as well as   to-lowercase
14:57:37 <crcx> all that's really missing now is some sort of i/o apart from the development ui
14:57:57 <tangentstorm> i think you had a pretty good design with the devices in ngaro.
15:00:20 <tangentstorm> the way i picture this retroterm thing working, you ought to be able to open it as a child process from any language , through the shell.
15:00:55 <tangentstorm> and as long as you can write to std i/o on the child process, your program can just send retro words
15:01:09 <tangentstorm> and drive the display.
15:01:44 <tangentstorm> so basically you'd have a second keyboard device for the gui window.
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15:02:26 <tangentstorm> like one for user interaction  and the other for interaction with the driving script.
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15:14:46 <tangentstorm> --- hey guys... i'm doing an impromptu class on implementing pascal on ngaro over in #pascal if anyone wants to come hang out
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19:14:27 <roarde> how long has canvas been on a port?
19:31:42 <tangentstorm> roarde: ages
19:32:01 <tangentstorm> i'm guessing it showed up with javascript
19:32:24 <tangentstorm> don't really know. before my time :)
19:32:58 <roarde> At first, "ages" confused me.
19:34:01 <roarde> Then I recalled how much retro can change each day.
19:34:21 <roarde> so, "ages" could mean a day and a half
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19:55:19 <tangentstorm> haha
19:55:39 <tangentstorm> it's been pretty stable since i've been around, i think... but then i only started actively using it around august i think.
19:56:30 <roarde> I've gotta catch back up.
19:57:57 <roarde> I'm thinking about implementing ACK's em in ngaro for faster quick-and-dirty porting
20:03:15 <tangentstorm> what's an ack?
20:03:18 <tangentstorm> and what's an em?
20:04:22 <roarde> amsterdam compiler kit, the original compilers for minix
20:05:00 <roarde> em is the lower-level language for all of it
20:14:06 <tangentstorm> oh interesting.
20:17:26 <roarde> the idea is that you'd have to port only ngaro to have a working platform
20:17:29 <roarde> trivial
20:18:08 <roarde> inefficient, but the compilers can be better fitted to the hardware later
20:18:09 <tangentstorm> yeah, i've been working up to implementing a pascal compiler that targets retro.
20:18:29 <tangentstorm> for a progamming course
20:18:54 <tangentstorm> i implemented PL/0 -> retro a while back
20:20:01 <roarde> so basically, we're talking about doing the same thing, but each of us in the opposite direction from the other, right?
20:20:03 <tangentstorm> i picked ngaro for much the same reason... 
20:20:29 <tangentstorm> hmm
20:20:31 <tangentstorm> not sure
20:20:41 <tangentstorm> you're saying you want to run em directly on ngaro
20:20:49 <tangentstorm> as an em-emulator :)
20:21:09 <tangentstorm> oh i mis-said what i'm doing
20:21:15 <roarde> I'm looking at you writing pascal source which will end up as retro code.
20:21:20 <tangentstorm> it is a pascal->retro compiler but it would be written in retro.
20:21:52 <roarde> so you want to import pascal source?
20:22:54 <tangentstorm> yes? :)
20:23:23 <tangentstorm> kind of depends what you mean by import, but i think so
20:23:34 <roarde> I'll be writing em in ngaro code and changing the source of much of ack to be written in em itself.
20:23:38 <tangentstorm> you would be a ble to use retro and pascal side by side, both runnig on the vm.
20:24:03 <tangentstorm> i think we're doing basically the same thing, just with different languages
20:24:44 <roarde> in some cases, would pascal use the vm directly, that is, not through retro?
20:25:39 <tangentstorm> My actual project is called retro pascal... The course would be about making games.
20:26:11 <tangentstorm> I wanted a VM that would run in a web browser and serve as a target for the compiler.
20:26:26 <roarde> ah. got it.
20:26:27 <tangentstorm> So the user wouldn't even have to know about forth/retro
20:26:53 <tangentstorm> But in turbo pascal, you could drop down to the machine level using an "asm" block
20:27:09 <roarde> it's a way to get hardware-agnostic pascal, right?
20:27:12 <tangentstorm> and it would have embedded intel assembly language (or whatever platform it was running, i guess)
20:27:14 <tangentstorm> yeah
20:27:44 <tangentstorm> UCSD Pascal was a wildly popular system back in the day, largely because all the tools ran on an easily portable VM
20:28:09 <tangentstorm> So I kind of wanted to replicate that.
20:28:30 <tangentstorm> and i had the same thought you did: retro's vm is tiny and easy to understand, so why not just use that?
20:28:47 <tangentstorm> if you can port retro, you get all the other tools for free.
20:28:51 <tangentstorm> er ngaro.
20:32:58 <roarde> ok, the only difference in what we're doing is that your code will run on the vm, mine will use the vm like a library
20:33:39 <roarde> ngaro ends up embedded into the object code until the code is optimized per platform, by hand
20:33:48 <tangentstorm> oh cool
20:33:55 <tangentstorm> do you know about saiwa?
20:33:58 <roarde> no
20:34:11 <tangentstorm> there's a guy that goes by Mat2 that hangs out in here.
20:34:29 <roarde> I've talked with Mat2 some
20:34:41 <tangentstorm> saiwa is another language he's created
20:35:03 <tangentstorm> i don't know if he's still planning to implement retro on top of it or not
20:35:21 <tangentstorm> but it's got a very compact vm
20:35:31 <tangentstorm> with JIT, etc.
20:35:53 <roarde> I like the maturity of ngaro.
20:36:10 <tangentstorm> me too
20:36:14 <tangentstorm> and the portability.
20:36:19 <roarde> retro changes frequently; the basics of ngaro, rarely
20:37:00 <roarde> what I saw of Mat2's work was extremely interesting, but too much in flux for what I want to do
20:37:30 <roarde> retro itself changes too much for me to use, too
20:37:30 <tangentstorm> well the point was just that for an intel platform it should eventually be possible to write for ngaro/retro and use what he's doing to produce really fast code
20:37:36 <tangentstorm> what are you doing? 
20:38:00 <roarde> mainly, it's "port stuff fast"
20:38:19 <roarde> "stuff" is usually C code, much to my chagrin
20:38:36 <tangentstorm> port it to other platforms?
20:38:54 * roarde nods . yes, other hardware
20:39:05 <roarde> new hardware
20:39:53 <tangentstorm> exicting new hardware? :)
20:40:14 <roarde> It takes me so very long that most of it's old hat, now.
20:40:34 <tangentstorm> like what?
20:40:35 <roarde> I'm itching to do something with ga144.
20:40:43 <tangentstorm> :)
20:41:23 <roarde> don't see why it couldn't be all of a chipset.
20:42:04 <roarde> take it out of its package and put it in a secret decoder ring
20:43:01 <roarde> wear the ring, walk up to any aware terminal, and there's your own computer
20:43:05 <tangentstorm> there's a guy in #forth (ttmrichter) who's talking about making a breakout board for ga144
20:43:13 <roarde> you're wearing it on your hand
20:43:56 <tangentstorm> i remember a guy from sun showing off a java ring concept many years ago.
20:44:01 <roarde> if I understand what's meant by "breakout board", there's one ready-made
20:45:21 <tangentstorm> i'm probably using the wrong word
20:45:36 <tangentstorm> or perhaps i don't know about what you're talking about :D
20:46:22 <roarde> My computer toasted, and with it my bookmarks.
20:46:52 <roarde> I keep meaning to find out what "backup" (if I spelled it right) means.
20:47:16 <tangentstorm> i know there's a $500 board from greenarrays, and schmartboard offers the little boards.
20:47:16 <tangentstorm> something else?
20:47:16 <tangentstorm> i forget the word  he used. 
20:47:16 <tangentstorm> discovery board.
20:48:26 <tangentstorm> i've heard of that ;)
20:48:40 <roarde> I was thinking of the schmarboard
20:48:56 <tangentstorm> actually i started using the sync feature for firefox and chrome... pretty handy.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/13.04.11